Lesbian parents giving boy hormone blockers to stave off puberty before likely sex change.

[Realitycheck]

http://www.foxnews.mobi/quickpage.html?page=38321&content=58747955&pagenum=-1

 

This is really sad, seeing this kid without a father, being led down this road with untold ridiculous molding pressures influencing him. Absolutely ridiculous. I mean, really. In the absence of a bonafide male father figure, just how hard could it conceivably be to brainwash an impressionable little baby into believing just about anything, just add in some coochie coo, a bunch of trips to the salon, and, "Presto! You were really a girl! Happens all of the time! Now, we'll just get this surgery done and everything will be fine and dandy." This is so disgusting, I'm almost at a loss for words. Only in California. I guess all I can really say is that there is likely (hopefully) some level of responsible government supervision going on and that he will punch his mothers in the kisser when he finally wakes up, or maybe he chickens out of the surgery. You'd think that would be a prime reason why they shouldn't allow gay parents to adopt opposite sex children at the very least. I thought we had already established that while nature does play a role, nurture was predominant in these cases. After all, he's got the goods. After all, they're giving him hormone blockers to begin with. Doesn't that sound just a bit inhumane in itself? I thought that children normally went through puberty in CA 3 years before everywhere else anyway.

[Cap'n Refsmmat]

What evidence leads you to the conclusion that the child was brainwashed or unduly manipulated by the parents?

[Realitycheck]

Some of the things from this story are just so unbelievable. Like the incident where he tried to cut off his genitals. I wonder why he would be doing that? Probably something to do with his parents telling him it doesn't belong there? This case just has total bullshit written all over it, and if it just happens to be true (like how could anyone ever know?), I'd say they only have themselves to blame.

[Cap'n Refsmmat]

Some of the things from this story are just so unbelievable. Like the incident where he tried to cut off his genitals. I wonder why he would be doing that? Probably something to do with his parents telling him it doesn't belong there?

It seems to me that "he didn't want those particular genitals" is a hypothesis which explains the data equally well, and it's merely personal incredulity that anyone would want to do such a thing which makes you believe it to be the result of brainwashing.

 

Given that there are, in fact, people who willingly undergo surgery to change genders, I think the incredulity is unwarranted.

 

Now, I don't deny that it's possible that the parents' influence caused his decision, but we shouldn't jump to unwarranted conclusions and decide his parents deserve to be punched in the face.

 

(It's also plausible that simply growing up with two inspiring and wonderful women made him want to be one, without the mothers trying to "convert" him. Most lesbians don't despise men, you know. Although I can't say whether these particular lesbians are actually inspiring or wonderful -- I'm just throwing out another hypothesis which fits the data.)

[Realitycheck]

I'm just backing up what this small number of professionals has to say about it.

[Cap'n Refsmmat]

Which professionals say the parents unduly influenced the child? I didn't see that in the article.

[PhDwannabe]

I imagine these professionals might be psychology professionals. Since I have graduate-level training in that area, I'd enjoy hearing what they have to say as well. Do you have references of some kind I might be able to peruse?

[Realitycheck]

Since when did innocent little children have any clue about such things anyway? Since it isn't really a crime to educate kids early, but 6 or 7 years old? And what does a 3 year old know about anything? If a 3 year old spouts out, "I'm a girl.", such as in this case, what would prompt such a statement? It's not like he's done years of soul-searching to arrive at the conclusion. It's not like he's got years of wisdom to draw from. At three years old, he would be struggling to form complete sentences, unless maybe you think God made him say that, but somehow I doubt that. It is kind of a weird phenomenon I'm hearing about, but I still say that its the parents' faults for growing them up at 80 mph without exercising any restraints (not really sure exactly what that entails), or even worse, putting these ideas into their heads because of the parents' own idiosyncracies or skewed judgments. He really shouldn't even know what he's talking about, but yeah his mother is probably a topless dancer without a clue or care in the world.

Edited October 18, 2011 by Realitycheck

[PhDwannabe]

Since when did innocent little children have any clue about such things anyway? Since it isn't really a crime to educate kids early, but 6 or 7 years old? And what does a 3 year old know about anything? If a 3 year old spouts out, "I'm a girl.", such as in this case, what would prompt such a statement? It's not like he's done years of soul-searching to arrive at the conclusion. It's not like he's got years of wisdom to draw from. At three years old, he would be struggling to form complete sentences, unless maybe you think God made him say that, but somehow I doubt that. It is kind of a weird phenomenon I'm hearing about, but I still say that its the parents' faults for growing them up at 80 mph without exercising any restraints (not really sure exactly what that entails), or even worse, putting these ideas into their heads because of the parents' own idiosyncracies or skewed judgments. He really shouldn't even know what he's talking about, but yeah his mother is probably a topless dancer without a clue or care in the world.

Can we hear about the professionals yet? Both Cap'n Refsmmat and I were eager to peruse some of their work.

Edited October 18, 2011 by PhDwannabe

[Realitycheck]

Just for the record, I don't have anything against lesbians, per se. But people from any walk of life with predispositions toward any number of idiosyncracies are capable of just about anything. There are no absolutes.

 

Despite any of my speculation, the entire article speaks for itself. The very act of giving him hormone blockers is in itself immoral and most likely biased.

[PhDwannabe]

Just for the record, I don't have anything against lesbians, per se. But people from any walk of life with predispositions toward any number of idiosyncracies are capable of just about anything. There are no absolutes.

 

Despite any of my speculation, the entire article speaks for itself. The very act of giving him hormone blockers is in itself immoral and most likely biased.

Can we hear about the professionals yet? Both Cap'n Refsmmat and I were eager to peruse some of their work.

[Ringer]

I think he's talking about this

"This is child abuse. It's like performing liposuction on an anorexic child," said Dr. Paul McHugh, professor of psychiatry at Johns Hopkins University.

 

"It is a disorder of the mind. Not a disorder of the body. Dealing with it in this way is not dealing with the problem that truly exists.

 

We shouldn't be mucking around with nature. We cant assume what the outcome will be," McHugh said.

 

Dr. Manny Alvarez, senior managing health editor of FoxNews.com, said the hormone blockers also may pose a medical risk. "I think that its highly inappropriate to be interfering with natural hormonal growth patterns, Alvarez said. There are significant potential problems necessary for growth and development.

 

"Potential long-term effects can include other abnormalities of hormones, vascular complications and even potential cancer. I think that if this child as he finishes his puberty and teenage years decides to undergo a transgender procedure then there are proper channels to do so.

 

But to do it at the age of 11 -- to me -- could be potentially dangerous to the health of this child," he said.

 

 

The telling parts of that is, though, one saying we shouldn't be mucking around with nature. That doesn't really say anything, unless he is against all types of medication.

 

The next is a personal opinion emphasized by him saying, "to me".

 

 

From what I can see the parents are doing the right thing by giving him time to decide. Not to mention he was diagnosed with gender identity disorder at a very early age makes it seem like the probability of the parents forcing this very slim.

Edited October 18, 2011 by Ringer

[Realitycheck]

Is something wrong with your computer that you are not able to read the link, or are you just so anti-Fox that it is not considered a reasonable source? If that is the case, believe me, I understand, but in the past few months, they have been softening their stance to a degree and allowing a bit more of a balanced selection of articles. They are just one of a number of news sources that I peruse. So read away, or is your antivirus software keeping you from reading that site? I see a number of doctors cited in the article. Did you just not read past the first page? You have to click the link to read the whole article. I posted the wrong link to the preliminary page.

 

But I admit, I don't know much about gender identity disorder. I just have a hard time believing that a three year old raised in a NORMAL environment would say such a thing.

 

I wonder what the ratio of children under 5 identifying as the opposite sex is under heterosexual parents, as opposed to under homosexual parents.

[Cap'n Refsmmat]

Is something wrong with your computer that you are not able to read the link, or are you just so anti-Fox that it is not considered a reasonable source? If that is the case, believe me, I understand, but in the past few months, they have been softening their stance to a degree and allowing a bit more of a balanced selection of articles. They are just one of a number of news sources that I peruse. So read away, or is your antivirus software keeping you from reading that site? I see a number of doctors cited in the article. Did you just not read past the first page? You have to click the link to read the whole article. I posted the wrong link to the preliminary page.

I don't see any professionals saying they had evidence that the parents unduly influenced the child -- just saying that giving the medication may be a bad idea. Did you have a specific quote in mind?

[ewmon]

Lesbian parents giving boy hormone blockers to stave off puberty before likely sex change.

Why fix something that isn't broken? Why delay puberty when the natural consequence at this time in his life is to mature — like all the other children his age. Maybe the natural situation of experiencing puberty is exactly what he needs in order to decide. Who/what gave anyone any right to take puberty away from any child? How often do situations arise to delay puberty, and for what reasons? What are the physical/mental/emotional/psychological consequences of going through puberty at, say, age 20? What kind of doctor is qualified to perform this procedure (ie, write up this prescription)? What if, sometime later, the boy decides it was wrong to take this course of action and sues the doctor? This is very sick and insidious child abuse of one of the most extreme kind, and for me, it ranks up there with female genital mutilation. Sick, sick, sick.

[Ophiolite]

Just for the record, I don't have anything against lesbians, per se.

I suppose some of your best friends are lesbians.

 

I don't see any professionals saying they had evidence that the parents unduly influenced the child

do you wish to comment on the administration of hormone blockers?

[Phi for All]

What I question is if an 11-year-old child is capable of consent to a potentially dangerous treatment. The law already says he's incapable of consent to have sex, so why is this any less of a consent issue?

 

This is offset by the evidence of what happens during puberty to a transgender child. It's already an emotional roller-coaster going through it with the body changes your gender is supposed to have, and there are significant dangers in going through it with the wrong ones.

 

Here's a good discussion piece from the AMA on Suppression of Puberty in Transgender Children.

 

The problem is not the parents, imo. It's not Fox News. It's not even what topless dancers teach their kids (unfounded speculation or not). It's the intervention in an important natural life stage. But the potentially disastrous effects of allowing the natural stage to develop in transgender children seems to warrant some kind of special attention. Postponing surgery until the child is considered more capable of consent seems reasonable in this light.

[Ringer]

From what I can tell through a skim of the AMA article, the puberty suppressant drugs are fairly safe and used regularly in prepubescents. Again this was a skim, but it seems in this case the drugs may have been introduced slightly early in the child's life it is more likely the drug will help the child cope and not develop further psychological problems while deciding if they want to keep their gender or not. The point of these drugs is to allow the child to grow older so they can better make a decision without going through puberty of the sex they do not wish to be.

 

[edit]

I just realized that it seems Phi was already saying this. [/edit.]

Edited October 19, 2011 by Ringer

[Realitycheck]

What causes a three year old to identify as the opposite sex? It makes no sense!

 

At that age, he should be innocent of sexual factors. So why would he even raise the issue?

Edited October 18, 2011 by Realitycheck

[Realitycheck]

Cap, Ok, I think I kind of see where you're coming from and agree that my initial accusations were a bit unfounded without any evidence to go off of. Aside from that, what do you all think about a parent's "right" to raise his/her child anyway they please with respect to molding pressures, guiding them to make decisions a certain way, etc., provided it adheres to the letter of the law, ie. no abuse, etc. What if a mother was always dressing up a boy in girl's dresses, or teaching them that homosexuality is the right way to live at the age of 3, feeding them any of that sort of misinformation. I mean, obviously, if he is definitely, genetically straight, I suppose he should grow up in disgust or mad at his parents or whatever. But if he had a few factors, nothing definite, but the nurturing was enough to tip the tables into doing something which he later regretted. Would this be considered child abuse in California?

[questionposter]

If the child actually wants to go through with it, what's the problem? How is it sad?

Edited October 20, 2011 by questionposter

[Realitycheck]

If he was unduly influenced because his mothers were especially exuberant while also obviously pushing him towards a gay lifestyle , and later in life, after he developed a more well-rounded perspective, perhaps developing lots of shame about what his mothers put him through (not using this case as an example) ...

[Aristarchus in Exile]

Dr. Frankenstein is STILL ALIVE!!!!

[questionposter]

If he was unduly influenced because his mothers were especially exuberant while also obviously pushing him towards a gay lifestyle , and later in life, after he developed a more well-rounded perspective, perhaps developing lots of shame about what his mothers put him through (not using this case as an example) ...

 

But if in the boy's childhood it was viewed as an alright thing to do, he would have nothing to be ashamed of.