A really hard question on Satan and deception.

[Greatest I am]

A really hard question on Satan and deception.

 

You all know that I always have answers for everything but these ones have me stumped.

 

That or Satan is deceiving me. How could I know?

 

If angels have free will, why has one never shown themselves?

 

There are apparently good angels and evil angels that have been renamed as demons.

 

If either of these showed itself, we could not distinguish it from God himself. No one has ever seen God.

 

Would we accept it as God and be deceived?

 

After all, it is said by God that Satan has the power to deceive the whole world.

 

Knowing this, and knowing that most of the world belongs to one religion or another. It follows that most people in these religions have been deceived.

 

How then can believers be so sure that they follow the right God?

 

As scripture indicates that most if not all will be following the wrong God thanks to deception.

 

Are you somehow immune to Satan, who can deceive the whole world?

 

If atheists are deceived, then there really is a God.

 

If believers are deceived, then there really is no God.

 

If a believer, how do you get around this catch 22.

 

Are morals the only good way around it?

 

If so, then if you are a believer that believes that Sodom or the genocide of Noah’s day is good justice, does that mean that you have been deceived?

 

Because on the face of it, since non believers are a minority and think it evil, then you, as part of the majority and think it good, must be wrong.

 

Is genocide then a good thing or an evil thing?

 

Careful, you have definitely been deceived if God was right. Satan has deceived you.

 

Regards

 

DL

 

 

[mooeypoo]

A really hard question on Satan and deception.

 

You all know that I always have answers for everything but these ones have me stumped.

 

That or Satan is deceiving me. How could I know?

holding... myself... from answering.... too easy... too easy....

 

If angels have free will, why has one never shown themselves?

Wait, why do we assume angels have free will? I don't remember anywhere in the bible it saying that. The free will issue is given to *man*. Not to angels.

 

In fact, if you've seen Dogma (GREAT movie, albeit hardly a good source), they are talking about how unfair that is.

 

There are apparently good angels and evil angels that have been renamed as demons.

I might take issue on that as well, unless this is something I don't know of from the "New testament". In the old one, there are no real "demons"... if you have a quote in mind, please share it.

 

If either of these showed itself, we could not distinguish it from God himself. No one has ever seen God.

I see where you're going with this, but your logic is flawed. The fact you don't know how god LOOKS like does not mean you can't know what he isn't.

 

You know that I'm not God, even though you've never seen God and, for that matter, you've never seen me. You know that because I don't have God's qualities; I'm not omnipotent, for one. Clearly. So even without knowing what God looks like you know I'm not it.

 

We could make the same judgment to other 'creatures' like the angels.

 

 

 

That said, in the old testament the angels are "Seraphim"; they are described in the text, so we will not only know what they look like, we will know they are not god immediately by that statement alone. They also do not have special powers or anything like that, they can only "deliver god's words" and ask God to do his miracles. They are usually used as messengers. Even if we go by the text alone, we should be able to identify them and know they're not god.

 

 

Would we accept it as God and be deceived?

 

After all, it is said by God that Satan has the power to deceive the whole world.

Where? Can you bring a quote?

 

Knowing this, and knowing that most of the world belongs to one religion or another. It follows that most people in these religions have been deceived.

 

How then can believers be so sure that they follow the right God?

Taht'sa completely different question than the one you raise in the beginning of this post. Many believers seem to have a rather logical answer to it: Anyone who is not of my particular flavor of religion and my particular flavor of reading the bible, is being deceived by satan.

 

You and I could point out that this makes things very hard to note who's right seeing as *everyone* claims the same thing -- but that doesn't mean the answer itself is not logical on its own. If, indeed, there is one God, and if, indeed, there is only ONE way of following that god, then, indeed, there is only ONE religion (and flavor of it) that is true, and everyone else is deceived.

 

The fact no one can be sure in your view (and mine) doesn't mean that each of them ARE sure that THEY're right.

 

It's insufficient to cause a major problem.

 

You see the problem here?

 

As scripture indicates that most if not all will be following the wrong God thanks to deception.

Whenever you say "scripture indicates", I will want a quote. I don't just say that to be annoying, I want to (a) see the context and (b) read the original hebrew in case it's the old testament. You'd be surprised how many of those "statements" are mistranslations or pre-interpreted translations.

 

 

Are you somehow immune to Satan, who can deceive the whole world?

 

If atheists are deceived, then there really is a God.

Why? This is a fallacy; there's no "white and black" in deception. Atheists can be deceived in their belief and still there won't be a god. For instance, if there is, in fact, a multitude of lesser demons and angels controlling the world without a central "God" authority, atheists would still be deceived, and yet there is still not God. That's more or less what Scientologists claim ("xenu" is no god), and scientologists are far from atheists.

 

Logic is lovely.

 

If believers are deceived, then there really is no God.

Same as above. Your statements are generalized and strict; too strict. There IS a middle ground here logically speaking. You're ignoring it.

 

If a believer, how do you get around this catch 22.

 

Are morals the only good way around it?

You're jumping to a completely different subject here, I'm not clear on how morals have to do with any of this. Let's try to stick to the topic you proposed initially. You can open another thread about questionable morality if you want (though I think we have a few of those).

 

If so, then if you are a believer that believes that Sodom or the genocide of Noah's day is good justice, does that mean that you have been deceived?

Not sure what that has anything to do with it either. Explain? Seems out of topic too.

 

Because on the face of it, since non believers are a minority and think it evil, then you, as part of the majority and think it good, must be wrong.

What? That makes no sense. Since when is the truth decided by "majority"? Since when does morality stated by majority? Even at the face of it, I disagree.

 

Is genocide then a good thing or an evil thing?

 

Careful, you have definitely been deceived if God was right. Satan has deceived you.

 

Regards

 

DL

 

 

 

This seems to be just a little "trap" you set to get people to say God is immoral. nice, but insufficient to what you claim. It's also not quite clear how it relates to Satan's deception at all..? I think you should explain it better, I'm a bit confused.

 

~mooey

[questionposter]

A really hard question on Satan and deception.

 

You all know that I always have answers for everything but these ones have me stumped.

 

That or Satan is deceiving me. How could I know?

 

If angels have free will, why has one never shown themselves?

 

There are apparently good angels and evil angels that have been renamed as demons.

 

If either of these showed itself, we could not distinguish it from God himself. No one has ever seen God.

 

Would we accept it as God and be deceived?

 

After all, it is said by God that Satan has the power to deceive the whole world.

 

Knowing this, and knowing that most of the world belongs to one religion or another. It follows that most people in these religions have been deceived.

 

How then can believers be so sure that they follow the right God?

 

As scripture indicates that most if not all will be following the wrong God thanks to deception.

 

Are you somehow immune to Satan, who can deceive the whole world?

 

If atheists are deceived, then there really is a God.

 

If believers are deceived, then there really is no God.

 

If a believer, how do you get around this catch 22.

 

Are morals the only good way around it?

 

If so, then if you are a believer that believes that Sodom or the genocide of Noah's day is good justice, does that mean that you have been deceived?

 

Because on the face of it, since non believers are a minority and think it evil, then you, as part of the majority and think it good, must be wrong.

 

Is genocide then a good thing or an evil thing?

 

Careful, you have definitely been deceived if God was right. Satan has deceived you.

 

Regards

 

DL

 

 

 

Regardless of any contradictions you find in any religion, there will still be people to believe in them at least for a long time as they still provide an explanation for things.

[mooeypoo]

Regardless of any contradictions you find in any religion, there will still be people to believe in them at least for a long time as they still provide an explanation for things.

 

Yes, good of you to state the obvious the idea in this discussion is to state those explanation, discuss their merit and see if there are contradictions.

That's why we do these somewhat theistic-themed discussions in a science-oriented forum.

 

 

~mooey

[questionposter]

Yes, good of you to state the obvious the idea in this discussion is to state those explanation, discuss their merit and see if there are contradictions.

That's why we do these somewhat theistic-themed discussions in a science-oriented forum.

 

 

~mooey

 

Well OP I think is pointing out these contradictions just for the mere purposing of exposing those contradictions, which doesn't do any good.

Edited October 20, 2011 by questionposter

[farmboy]

 

 

If angels have free will, why has one never shown themselves?

 

There are apparently good angels and evil angels that have been renamed as demons.

 

If either of these showed itself, we could not distinguish it from God himself. No one has ever seen God.

 

 

Your whole argument seems to be based on the assumption that if angels are real and that they can infact reveal themselves without consequence they would have the desire to do so. I don't think you can make any such claim.

[questionposter]

Your whole argument seems to be based on the assumption that if angels are real and that they can infact reveal themselves without consequence they would have the desire to do so. I don't think you can make any such claim.

 

Well based on our "records" of religious phenomena, it is a likely possibility, just like how "If god existed, he would punish all the gays".

Edited October 20, 2011 by questionposter

[farmboy]

Well based on our "records" of religious phenomena, it is a likely possibility, just like how "If god existed, he would punish all the gays".

 

Those gays do need punishing...lol

[mooeypoo]

Well based on our "records" of religious phenomena, it is a likely possibility, just like how "If god existed, he would punish all the gays".

 

What? Says who? There are more "records" of "religious phenomena" than just the bible. Also, the OT at least has nothing against Gays, just the NT it seems. But that's for a different topic.

 

 

In any case, let's please stick to the topic and avoid having a ridiculing attitude. We can discuss theism without deteriorating the discussion.

 

~moo

[questionposter]

What? Says who? There are more "records" of "religious phenomena" than just the bible. Also, the OT at least has nothing against Gays, just the NT it seems. But that's for a different topic.

 

 

In any case, let's please stick to the topic and avoid having a ridiculing attitude. We can discuss theism without deteriorating the discussion.

 

~moo

 

I'm saying it's a likely possibility in terms of the OP, as in "based on this, it's likely god isn't this, but actually that."

[mooeypoo]

I'm saying it's a likely possibility in terms of the OP, as in "based on this, it's likely god isn't this, but actually that."

 

I am still not quite there with your comparison, maybe your example about "if... then" was too specific/political and it drives my brain in the different direction than you mean? I'm not sure I understand what you're saying.

[Greatest I am]

holding... myself... from answering.... too easy... too easy....

 

 

Wait, why do we assume angels have free will? I don't remember anywhere in the bible it saying that. The free will issue is given to *man*. Not to angels.

 

In fact, if you've seen Dogma (GREAT movie, albeit hardly a good source), they are talking about how unfair that is.

 

How could Satan have rebelled without a free will?

Impossible. Right?

 

 

I might take issue on that as well, unless this is something I don't know of from the "New testament". In the old one, there are no real "demons"... if you have a quote in mind, please share it.

 

Just dogma. The demons are supposed to be working for Satan. That is what jesus was casting out of people.

So the myth states.

 

 

I see where you're going with this, but your logic is flawed. The fact you don't know how god LOOKS like does not mean you can't know what he isn't.

 

This logic is flawed. Not mine. We cannot know what he is nor what he isn't.

 

 

You know that I'm not God, even though you've never seen God and, for that matter, you've never seen me.

Correct. So how can I know that you are not God?

I cannot.

 

 

You know that because I don't have God's qualities; I'm not omnipotent, for one.

 

You say so but again, I have no way to confirm it so can only state that I have hear say evidence. No proof.

 

 

Clearly. So even without knowing what God looks like you know I'm not it.

 

I have no such knowledge. Only your say so.

 

We could make the same judgment to other 'creatures' like the angels.

 

You could perhaps, but I like to know I speak truth and would need to confirm it somehow.

 

That said, in the old testament the angels are "Seraphim"; they are described in the text, so we will not only know what they look like, we will know they are not god immediately by that statement alone.

 

Scipture calls Satan a snake and a dragon and the story of Sodom has angels looking like men so we see that angels are shape shifters.

 

 

They also do not have special powers or anything like that,

 

Satan does. To be able to deceive all men.

 

they can only "deliver god's words" and ask God to do his miracles. They are usually used as messengers. Even if we go by the text alone, we should be able to identify them and know they're not god.

 

Here again you take away free will yet Satan's rebellion shows that he has it.

 

 

Where? Can you bring a quote?

 

Rev 12 ⁹And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

 

Taht'sa completely different question than the one you raise in the beginning of this post. Many believers seem to have a rather logical answer to it: Anyone who is not of my particular flavor of religion and my particular flavor of reading the bible, is being deceived by satan.

 

You and I could point out that this makes things very hard to note who's right seeing as *everyone* claims the same thing -- but that doesn't mean the answer itself is not logical on its own. If, indeed, there is one God, and if, indeed, there is only ONE way of following that god, then, indeed, there is only ONE religion (and flavor of it) that is true, and everyone else is deceived.

 

The fact no one can be sure in your view (and mine) doesn't mean that each of them ARE sure that THEY're right.

 

It's insufficient to cause a major problem.

 

You see the problem here?

 

No. As it all revolves around being deceived and the problems of recognizing that deception..

 

 

Whenever you say "scripture indicates", I will want a quote. I don't just say that to be annoying, I want to (a) see the context and (b) read the original hebrew in case it's the old testament. You'd be surprised how many of those "statements" are mistranslations or pre-interpreted translations.

 

 

See Rev 12 above.

 

Why? This is a fallacy; there's no "white and black" in deception. Atheists can be deceived in their belief and still there won't be a god. For instance, if there is, in fact, a multitude of lesser demons and angels controlling the world without a central "God" authority, atheists would still be deceived, and yet there is still not God. That's more or less what Scientologists claim ("xenu" is no god), and scientologists are far from atheists.

 

Logic is lovely.

 

Yes it is.

 

It is not a fallacy.

If there is a God and Satan at all, which is the assumption of the O P, then Satan can make us beleive whatever he wants.

If he is at wok on believers as well as non believers, then it would be to the opposite of truth.

Same as above. Your statements are generalized and strict; too strict. There IS a middle ground here logically speaking. You're ignoring it.

 

What is the middle ground?

Maybe yes, maybe no.

Thus I ignore it.

 

You're jumping to a completely different subject here, I'm not clear on how morals have to do with any of this. Let's try to stick to the topic you proposed initially. You can open another thread about questionable morality if you want (though I think we have a few of those).

 

True, but that does not take away the fact that morals would likely be what is used to decide if we are deceived or not.

They tend to have a logic trail to follow.

Then again, Satan can screw with us in that as well so there may not be a way out. Catch 22.

 

Not sure what that has anything to do with it either. Explain? Seems out of topic too.

 

 

What? That makes no sense. Since when is the truth decided by "majority"? Since when does morality stated by majority? Even at the face of it, I disagree.

 

As you should FYPOV. I would as well if I shared it.

 

I am viewing it from the notion that Satan would go for the majority as the larger part of the whole world which he is suppoed to be able to deceive. That is what I would do.

 

 

This seems to be just a little "trap" you set to get people to say God is immoral. nice, but insufficient to what you claim. It's also not quite clear how it relates to Satan's deception at all..? I think you should explain it better, I'm a bit confused.

 

~mooey

 

 

It is kinda.

It is there to give me a quick view of what kind of mind I am speaking to.

One up God's ass or one breathing fresh air and able to think properly.

 

Regards

DL

 

Regardless of any contradictions you find in any religion, there will still be people to believe in them at least for a long time as they still provide an explanation for things.

 

True. In a sence.

They follow a tradition and culture. Not a God.

 

That is why most follow flawed theologies.

 

Regards

 

DL

 

 

 

Your whole argument seems to be based on the assumption that if angels are real and that they can infact reveal themselves without consequence they would have the desire to do so. I don't think you can make any such claim.

 

I think I can since scriptures show some kind of God like prophet and an anti-Christ at end times.

 

Just who is who will be the discussion at that point in time.

 

 

 

Regards

 

DL

 

 

[farmboy]

I think I can since scriptures show some kind of God like prophet and an anti-Christ at end times.

 

Just who is who will be the discussion at that point in time.

 

Well I'm not sure that they do, but even assuming that is true and we assume that one of those beings is an angel we only have evidence to show that they will reveal themselves at the end of days. Doesn't help the foundation of your argument.

[Appolinaria]

A really hard question on Satan and deception.

 

You all know that I always have answers for everything but these ones have me stumped.

 

That or Satan is deceiving me. How could I know?

 

If angels have free will, why has one never shown themselves?

 

There are apparently good angels and evil angels that have been renamed as demons.

 

If either of these showed itself, we could not distinguish it from God himself. No one has ever seen God.

 

Would we accept it as God and be deceived?

 

After all, it is said by God that Satan has the power to deceive the whole world.

 

Knowing this, and knowing that most of the world belongs to one religion or another. It follows that most people in these religions have been deceived.

 

How then can believers be so sure that they follow the right God?

 

As scripture indicates that most if not all will be following the wrong God thanks to deception.

 

Are you somehow immune to Satan, who can deceive the whole world?

 

If atheists are deceived, then there really is a God.

 

If believers are deceived, then there really is no God.

 

If a believer, how do you get around this catch 22.

 

Are morals the only good way around it?

 

If so, then if you are a believer that believes that Sodom or the genocide of Noah's day is good justice, does that mean that you have been deceived?

 

Because on the face of it, since non believers are a minority and think it evil, then you, as part of the majority and think it good, must be wrong.

 

Is genocide then a good thing or an evil thing?

 

Careful, you have definitely been deceived if God was right. Satan has deceived you.

 

Regards

 

DL

 

 

 

 

 

 

If the whole world puts their faith in a book that's telling them the whole world will be deceived...

 

Sounds a little contradictory, no?

 

[Greatest I am]

Well I'm not sure that they do, but even assuming that is true and we assume that one of those beings is an angel we only have evidence to show that they will reveal themselves at the end of days. Doesn't help the foundation of your argument.

 

That is one instance.

There are some from the past as well.

 

Judges 6

11 The angel of the LORD came and sat down under the oak in Ophrah that belonged to Joash the Abiezrite, where his son Gideon was threshing wheat in a winepress to keep it from the Midianites. 12 When the angel of the LORD appeared to Gideon, he said, “The LORD is with you, mighty warrior.”

 

Regards

DL

 

If the whole world puts their faith in a book that's telling them the whole world will be deceived...

 

Sounds a little contradictory, no?

 

 

No.

 

I would finish your statement with------then they would all have to believe that they will also be deceived.

 

A contradiction reverses some premise. that is not happening here.

 

Regards

DL

[questionposter]

I am still not quite there with your comparison, maybe your example about "if... then" was too specific/political and it drives my brain in the different direction than you mean? I'm not sure I understand what you're saying.

 

Ok, I'm essentially saying the OP was trying to logically deduce the fallacies of religions, so in terms of assuming both God and logic and science are true simultaneously, then his points could make sense.

Edited October 22, 2011 by questionposter

[farmboy]

That is one instance.

There are some from the past as well.

 

Judges 6

11 The angel of the LORD came and sat down under the oak in Ophrah that belonged to Joash the Abiezrite, where his son Gideon was threshing wheat in a winepress to keep it from the Midianites. 12 When the angel of the LORD appeared to Gideon, he said, “The LORD is with you, mighty warrior.”

 

Lol dude, if angels have (apparently) shown themselves in the past why did you specifically say they hadn't in your opening post?

 

That aside it only requires a minor change to the point I was making, essentially your whole argument rests on the premise that if an angel does exist, and it does have free will it would want to pose as god. I don't see how you can make such a claim, and your entire argument folds after that.

[mooeypoo]

Angels in the old testament are the messengers of god. They come to speak, they don't do miracles -- God does. They don't have "free will" because they're not human. Only human beings have free will.

 

Even in Judges 6, if you keep reading, the speech turns from "And the angel told him [god says..]" to "and god told him". This is an abbreviation; Gideon speaks to the angel of god as a conduit to speaking to God.

 

I'm not sure how this makes your point..? How is this an anti-christ or a 'god like prophet'? The text, at least in this case, is fairly clear. The angel speaks. When actions are done, they're done by god. Just read that chapter completely, and you can see.

 

~mooey

[Greatest I am]

Lol dude, if angels have (apparently) shown themselves in the past why did you specifically say they hadn't in your opening post?

 

That aside it only requires a minor change to the point I was making, essentially your whole argument rests on the premise that if an angel does exist, and it does have free will it would want to pose as god. I don't see how you can make such a claim, and your entire argument folds after that.

 

I just do not think that hear say or Bible say, all hear say, is good testimony but you are essentially correct.

my bad and I would have to recant.

 

As to my specculation of what a deceiving Satan would do, impersonate God, going for the most impact seems like what a great deceiver would do.

The greatest coup, so to speak. Regards

 

DL

 

 

 

Angels in the old testament are the messengers of god. They come to speak, they don't do miracles -- God does. They don't have "free will" because they're not human. Only human beings have free will.

 

Even in Judges 6, if you keep reading, the speech turns from "And the angel told him [god says..]" to "and god told him". This is an abbreviation; Gideon speaks to the angel of god as a conduit to speaking to God.

 

I'm not sure how this makes your point..? How is this an anti-christ or a 'god like prophet'? The text, at least in this case, is fairly clear. The angel speaks. When actions are done, they're done by god. Just read that chapter completely, and you can see.

 

~mooey

 

 

If angels have no free will, then how could Satan, an angel, possibly have rebelled against God?

Is deceiving the whole world not a miracle done by Satan or is it really God in drag doing it?

 

God does say that Satan has the power.

 

Regards

 

DL

Edited October 23, 2011 by Greatest I am

[mooeypoo]

 

If angels have no free will, then how could Satan, an angel, possibly have rebelled against God?

Is deceiving the whole world not a miracle done by Satan or is it really God in drag doing it?

 

According to Judaism, he didn't.

 

 

According to the Old Testament there is only ONE god. He has messengers that do his bidding, and sometimes the stories use these messengers as a sounding-board for god to "discuss" and "consider" his course of action. Angels do not have superpowers, they do not have godly power, and they don't have free will. They do God's work because God himself rarely speaks to human beings directly.

 

God does say that Satan has the power.

Can you supply the bit of text that literally says that Satan has rebelled against God, or is this a believe Christians have without actual biblical text?

 

I don't intend this question as mockery, I'm asking because I really don't know. I always assumed there's some actual text in the new testament saying what Satan is... I'm not so sure anymore, though, and I'd like to see context. As far as I remember, there's no such sentence/statement in the old testament.

 

 

 

~mooey

[Greatest I am]

According to Judaism, he didn't.

 

 

According to the Old Testament there is only ONE god. He has messengers that do his bidding, and sometimes the stories use these messengers as a sounding-board for god to "discuss" and "consider" his course of action. Angels do not have superpowers, they do not have godly power, and they don't have free will. They do God's work because God himself rarely speaks to human beings directly.

 

[/size]

Can you supply the bit of text that literally says that Satan has rebelled against God, or is this a believe Christians have without actual biblical text?

 

I don't intend this question as mockery, I'm asking because I really don't know. I always assumed there's some actual text in the new testament saying what Satan is... I'm not so sure anymore, though, and I'd like to see context. As far as I remember, there's no such sentence/statement in the old testament.

 

 

 

~mooey

 

 

I think we both know that Christians are all over the map with their beliefs.

 

Literalists believe in Satan and hell while some liberal or universalists cults will not.

 

 

 

Let me also give you this.

 

 

The rebellion of Satan is standard Christian fare.

 

If we cannot agree on this from the get go, then we cannot debate the notions of his deception which is found in Rev 12 9.

 

Regards

 

DL

 

 

 

 

[mooeypoo]

I think we both know that Christians are all over the map with their beliefs.

*Some* Christians. You know I'm mostly in agreement with you in those matters, but I insist we try our best not to generalize. SOME Christians are all over the place, as your quote proceeds with example about the literalists you seem to admit this yourself. For that matter, this isn't confined to christianity alone. The absolute most of any religious literalist has to adjust their beliefs, and is hence "all over the map".

 

The problem with literalism is that the text (not just in christianity and judaism) is inconsistent most often than not. Literalists often find themselves stuck in the paradox of either adjusting their belief, nitpicking text or making judgments over twisty-logic. That's not to say all religious people do that; some do it more than others, maybe, but I know quite a number of religious people who have a very similar approach to mine in regards to the bible -- as an old book that's meant as inspiration rather than literal stories. Those people exist, we shouldn't just dismiss their existence (even if we disagree with them) just because others take the belief to extremes.

 

 

 

 

 

As for Satan, etc -- it seems the majority of what you're giving out as examples comes from the New Testament, and I have little knowledge of that, so I will stand back and let better knowledgeable folk engage in this discussion.

 

I just wanted to point out that the point of discussions in this science-minded forum are meant as philosophical and logical examinations. Literalists won't find many points of agreement here, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't examine what the text says in light of common belief systems and analyze and discuss what we think of it.

 

There's little doubt that there's no real proof or any scientific evidence in much of what is written, the point isn't so much to reiterate this fact (or preach it ) but to try and discuss things in an intellectual level.

 

In this case, it seems to me the depiction of Satan in the OT is quite different than it is in the NT.

 

~mooey

[Greatest I am]

moo

 

I agree with your view of the Bible as a book of wisdom.

It is to help us seek God. Not give us a God in a book.

 

You are also correct on literalists being way out there.

 

To me, any literalist or fundamental hurts their parent religion regardless of the flavor.

 

I am a religionist myself and do not mind, and indeed urge, that people seek God.

 

God being defined more as a good set of rules to live by, and not some invisible sky daddy that demand that we think his way or he will send us to hell.

 

Regards

DL

[questionposter]

moo

 

I agree with your view of the Bible as a book of wisdom.

It is to help us seek God. Not give us a God in a book.

 

 

Even though I'm not currently religious, I still find many of Jesus's and other religious figure's moral teachings good.

[Greatest I am]

Even though I'm not currently religious, I still find many of Jesus's and other religious figure's moral teachings good.

 

Certainly. You have to be careful of unworkable rhetoric though.

 

Turn the other cheek. ------ Great for inconsequential. What are you to do if a man rapes your wife? Offer your daughter.

 

Divorce. Let no man put asunder.------Even if a woman gets beat twice a week?

 

The greatest command. Love your neighbor as yourself.-----Can you be commanded to draw out emotions like love and hate. No.

 

Love, to be true love has to be shared and must have deeds attached to be true love.

 

You cannot love who you do not know. I love Shania Twain. She does not know me so that love is not true love.

 

Rhetoric is great as long as you do not analyze it.

 

See what I mean?

 

Regards

 

DL