The Ancient Astronaut Argument

[dimreepr]

1 Why the first constructor of Stonehedge bring from so far (hundred miles) the firs blue stones ?...there are no sense !!!

 

 

 

 

It makes no sense to you, or me for that matter, but it clearly made sense to those that built it.

 

http://planetsave.com/2012/06/24/stonehenge-marked-the-unification-of-britain-researchers-say/

 

 

Each of the large stones are thought to symbolize the different tribes of Britain, with each stone coming from distinctly different regions of Britain, from southern England to western Wales. The movement, shaping, and erecting of such large stones from all over Britain would have been very labor-intensive, and, for practical purposes, a very unnecessary undertaking.

 

 

 

[dapifo]

It makes no sense to you, or me for that matter, but it clearly made sense to those that built it.

 

http://planetsave.com/2012/06/24/stonehenge-marked-the-unification-of-britain-researchers-say/

 

 

 

The first (older) ones (the blue ones) comes from the same quarry from North of Wales.

 

And the younger one comes from closed quarries

[dimreepr]

The first (older) ones (the blue ones) comes from the same quarry from North of Wales.

 

And the younger one comes from closed quarries

 

First, what are your sources?

 

Second, what has this to do with aliens?

 

 

[Moontanman]

Again, unless you postulate some sort of magical technology it makes no more sense for aliens to have moved the stones than it does for our ancestors to have done so. All available evidence points to our ancestors doing it not some extraterrestrial power.

[studiot]

Actual it makes more sense for our ancestors to have done the moving since they were likely under the influence of Druid Special Brew, whereas it is well known that superbeings are unaffected by alcohol.

[D H]

1 Why the first constructor of Stonehedge bring from so far (hundred miles) the firs blue stones ?...there are no sense !!!

To you it makes no sense. To the constructors of Stonehenge it must have made lots of sense. They did do it, after all. This is not something that "doesn't fit in." It's just an unknown. Stonehenge does fit in. There are over 1000 neolithic / bronze age stone circles spread across England, Wales, Scotland, Ireland, and Brittany. Stonehenge is just the most grandiose of these. Why they built them? We don't know.

 

BTW, the first constructors did not use those blue stones. Stonehenge went through a series of updates. The blue stones: Stonehenge release 3.0.

 

 

2 Please, name some

Occam's razor. It's not needed, so why invoke it?

We see no signs of aliens now.

We see no signs of aliens then.

It's nonsense that is completely ignorant of biology, astronomy, and physics.

[John Cuthber]

1 Why the first constructor of Stonehedge bring from so far (hundred miles) the firs blue stones ?...there are no sense !!!

 

 

Any answer to that has to be speculative but how about this one?

For the same reason that cathedrals don't look like cheap office blocks.

[dapifo]

Do you know the subject of Dogon religion who adores gods that came about Sirius?

 

And that they known for hundreds of years that Sirius is a triple star?

 

And that they know the period of revolution of them?

 

I would like to see your fantastic imagination to demostrate that it is normal...or false (!!?)

 

I think that is necesary to be more MAGIC and FANTASTIC to refuse the evidence than for to accept the really, but ... it happens !!!

Edited July 3, 2012 by dapifo

[Moontanman]

Do you know the subject of Dogon religion who adores gods that came about Sirius?

 

And that they known for hundreds of years that Sirius is a triple star?

 

And that they know the period of revolution of them?

 

I would like to see your fantastic imagination to demostrate that it is normal...or false (!!?)

 

I think that is necesary to be more MAGIC and FANTASTIC to refuse the evidence than for to accept the really, but ... it happens !!!

 

 

You'll be disappointed, but it does appear the Dogon people did indeed have contact with a more advanced civilization.

 

http://www.skepdic.com/dogon.html

[Abecedarian]

Ask anyone under hypnosis who has been abducted by aliens and they will tell you they came from the planet Orion. The same star that the pyramids are aligned to! Is that a coincidence?

 

Also, science experiments show that a sandwich stays fresh underneath a pyramid, razor blades stay sharp and they can charge up crystals with healing energy. How would ancient Egyptians know that?

Edited July 3, 2012 by Abecedarian

[Ringer]

Ask anyone under hypnosis who has been abducted by aliens and they will tell you they came from the planet Orion. The same star that the pyramids are aligned to! Is that a coincidence?

 

No, it's just not true.

 

Also, science experiments show that a sandwich stays fresh underneath a pyramid, razor blades stay sharp and they can charge up crystals with healing energy. How would ancient Egyptians know that?

 

And what science experiments are those?

[Moontanman]

Ask anyone under hypnosis who has been abducted by aliens and they will tell you they came from the planet Orion. The same star that the pyramids are aligned to! Is that a coincidence?

 

Also, science experiments show that a sandwich stays fresh underneath a pyramid, razor blades stay sharp and they can charge up crystals with healing energy. How would ancient Egyptians know that?

 

 

I honestly don't know whether I should laugh, cry, or just be disgusted...

 

By the way I am from Fomalhaut...

[John Cuthber]

Ask anyone under hypnosis who has been abducted by aliens and they will tell you they came from the planet Orion. The same star that the pyramids are aligned to! Is that a coincidence?

 

That particular logical fallacy is called begging the question.

And I'd like to see some real evidence about the "pyramid power" thing, but I have yet to hear any.

[studiot]

Two telling points about people who associate magic with constellations.

 

1) They don't realise that stars which form a pattern in our sky eg the famous W may be a long way different in distance and that the pattern is simply a projection on a spherical shell in our view.

 

2) The further don't realise that these patterns change over time so something that is aligned today would have offered a different relationship in the distant past.

 

Here is a different experiment about patterns and alignment.

 

Take a blank sheet of paper.

Scatter some black pepper grains onto it.

You will find if you take a ruler and check the slignment of these random dots that you can draw 'leylines' on your paper!

Now stretch and distort that paper so that it wraps round a sphere.

Are you 'leylines' still straight?

Edited July 3, 2012 by studiot

[michel123456]

 

This is a picture of Villagers in Bawomataluo on Nias move a megalith for construction around 1915.

 

In this case, the aliens are shown on the photograph, they are wearing helmets and extra-sensorial rings around their necks, their wear no shoes for gravitational shielding, their chief standing on the stone wears a stealth protection. Another one in the background on the left has an electromagnetic photon-screen over his head (an umbrella).

Edited July 3, 2012 by michel123456

[studiot]

Nice one michel

 

Two weeks I saw an alien performing in Amsterdam as a street artist.

Edited July 3, 2012 by studiot

[dapifo]

You'll be disappointed, but it does appear the Dogon people did indeed have contact with a more advanced civilization.

 

http://www.skepdic.com/dogon.html

 

I said to you....it is incredible the FANTASY and IMAGINATION you have to find any escuse to try to explain evidences in terms of academic history (melamin ?? and Egyptians...!!!..hahaha !!!).

 

"Afrocentrists, on the other hand, claimed that the Dogon could see Sirius B without the need of a telescope because of their special eyesight due to quantities of melanin (Welsing, F. C. 1987. "Lecture 1st Melanin Conference, San Francisco, September 16-17, 1987"). There is, of course, no evidence for this special eyesight, nor for other equally implausible notions such as the claim that the Dogon got their knowledge from black Egyptians who had telescopes."

 

Do you know that the Egyptian civilization comes 20.000 years ago from Sahara land...before it was a dessert?...

If you use your FANTASY and IMAGINATION for creating more than for destroying....you will get better results !!!

 

 

This is a picture of Villagers in Bawomataluo on Nias move a megalith for construction around 1915.

 

In this case, the aliens are shown on the photograph, they are wearing helmets and extra-sensorial rings around their necks, their wear no shoes for gravitational shielding, their chief standing on the stone wears a stealth protection. Another one in the background on the left has an electromagnetic photon-screen over his head (an umbrella).

 

So many people and strings to move so small stone???....HAHAHAHHAHA...HAHAHAHAHAHAH !!!

 

What do you think about the contens about Bible:

 

- Giants (Goliat)

- Miracles Jesucrist,...)

- The flood....Noe (Gilmangeish in sumerian)...The Ark

 

 

Why all the religions and mithologies (Sumerian, Indu, Egyptian, Greek, Inca, Maya, Hebrew,Islamic, Christian,...) talk about Gods, Semi-gods and Humans an in the same range of ages/years?

[Greg H.]

I said to you....it is incredible the FANTASY and IMAGINATION you have to find any escuse to try to explain evidences in terms of academic history (melamin ?? and Egyptians...!!!..hahaha !!!).

 

"Afrocentrists, on the other hand, claimed that the Dogon could see Sirius B without the need of a telescope because of their special eyesight due to quantities of melanin (Welsing, F. C. 1987. "Lecture 1st Melanin Conference, San Francisco, September 16-17, 1987"). There is, of course, no evidence for this special eyesight, nor for other equally implausible notions such as the claim that the Dogon got their knowledge from black Egyptians who had telescopes."

 

Do you know that the Egyptian civilization comes 20.000 years ago from Sahara land...before it was a dessert?...

If you use your FANTASY and IMAGINATION for creating more than for destroying....you will get better results !!!

 

 

 

So many people and strings to move so small stone???....HAHAHAHHAHA...HAHAHAHAHAHAH !!!

 

Your posts are starting to degenerate into what appears to be random babbling and maniacal laughter. What was your point here?

[dapifo]

Your posts are starting to degenerate into what appears to be random babbling and maniacal laughter. What was your point here?

 

I see no difference between my comments and those of other participants...they are mocking all time !!!!!

 

Yes, I laugh, may not I?. I think you have a nonpartisan vision of all this.

[Greg H.]

I see no difference between my comments and those of other participants...they are mocking all time !!!!!

 

Yes, I laugh, may not I?. I think you have a nonpartisan vision of all this.

 

Obviously you missed the part where I asked if you had a point. Thus far, I fail to see one.

[dapifo]

OK ... you are right ... everything is easier than others want to see:

 

- Out of nowhere the universe was done 14,000 million years ago

 

- From there came the Milky Way Galaxy, the Sun and the Earth 5,000 million years ago

 

- For chemical mechanisms the life appeared 3,000 million years ago

 

- Through evolution went from a unicellular to humans 200,000 years ago.

 

- During these years humanity has been hunter-gatherer to 7,000 years ago civilizations who settled in ... and even now.

 

And now in an absolutely normal way. here we (alone in the universe) around in this ball .... all that easy (!?)

 

Those who do not see it as simple as are stupid and ignorant... LONG LIVE THE SCIENCE!

[D H]

OK ... you are right ... everything is easier than others want to see:

 

- Out of nowhere the universe was done 14,000 million years ago

 

- From there came the Milky Way Galaxy, the Sun and the Earth 5,000 million years ago

 

- For chemical mechanisms the life appeared 3,000 million years ago

 

- Through evolution went from a unicellular to humans 200,000 years ago.

 

- During these years humanity has been hunter-gatherer to 7,000 years ago civilizations who settled in ... and even now.

 

And now in an absolutely normal way. here we (alone in the universe) around in this ball .... all that easy (!?)

 

Those who do not see it as simple as are stupid and ignorant... LONG LIVE THE SCIENCE!

You're right. It's so very, very easy to refute something when you use logical fallacies. The above uses several fallacies:

• Straw man. It's easy to refute something when you twist the thing you are trying to refute into something else.
  
• Appeal to ridicule ("all that easy (!?)"). Combining straw man plus appeal to ridicule is a standard ploy amongst cranks.
  
• Misleading vividness. Again a standard ploy.
  
• Misstatements. You have several of the numbers wrong.
  
• False dilemma. You have left out several key alternatives. Intelligent life might be rare, extended space travel nigh impossible.
  
• Fallacy of the single cause. You are implicitly assuming that a single cause, in this aliens, will explain how we got here.
  
• Circular reasoning. Your aliens are subject to the same arguments. How do aliens answer anything?
  

 

Now let's look at your list in detail.

 

Out of nowhere the universe was done 14,000 million years ago

This is an appeal to ridicule. The finite age of the universe is an argument against alien visitors. Assuming physics is correct in that faster than light travel is impossible, the finite age of the universe plus some amount of time for some alien civilization to arise means that aliens in some "galaxy far far away" cannot have visited is. The sphere of influence for possible alien visitors is much smaller than is the observable universe.

 

From there came the Milky Way Galaxy, the Sun and the Earth 5,000 million years ago

Point of correction: The Milky Way formed long before the solar system did. Your 5 billion (5,000 million) year figure is roughly correct. 4.6 billion is a better figure for the solar system, 4.54 billion for the Earth.

 

For chemical mechanisms the life appeared 3,000 million years ago

Point of correction: 3,500 to 3,900 million years ago is a better figure. It didn't take all that long geologically speaking between the point in time at Earth was hospitable to life to the point in time at which life formed. What this says to many is that simple life may be common.

 

- Through evolution went from a unicellular to humans 200,000 years ago.

- During these years humanity has been hunter-gatherer to 7,000 years ago civilizations who settled in ... and even now.

So what?

 

Let's make your argument even more ludicrous.

1. The Earth formed at just the right distance from just the right kind of star, with just the right distribution of elements to make life possible, and from just the right quantity of elements (not too big, not too small). Life would not exist if any one of those "just right" conditions were not present.
   What are the odds of that?
    
   
2. The solar system has been stable from the time it formed until now. If this wasn't the case the Earth most likely would have been ejected from the solar system, sent into a highly eccentric orbit, or pushed out of the habitable zone.
   What are the odds of that?
    
   
3. Just after the Earth finished forming, a fluke collision between a Mars-sized planet and the early Earth stripped the Earth of its Venus-like atmosphere and created the Moon, which is essential for keeping the Earth's rotation stable.
   What are the odds of that?
    
   
4. The planet would not be habitable were it not for plate tectonics. Plate tectonics started fairly early on in the Earth's history.
   What are the odds of that?
    
   
5. Simple life (prokaryotes) arose on the Earth shortly after the Earth had cooled to the point where it was hospitable to life.
   What are the odds of that?
    
   
6. Complex single-celled life (eukaryotes) took a long time to form, and apparently this happened just one.
   What are the odds of that?
    
   
7. Multicellular life took a long time to form, and apparently this happened just one.
   What are the odds of that?
    
   
8. Several near-disasters nearly wiped out all life off of the Earth, and yet life survived.
   What are the odds of that?
    
   
9. A species intelligent enough to become civilized had to form. Obviously we wouldn't be here if our ancestors did not have a good deal of innate intelligence.
   What are the odds of that?
    
   
10. Most of the iron and other heavy metals sank to form the core of the Earth when the Earth was a very young molten blob. Yet the Earth has some metals near the surface. Without those metals, our predecessors would not have been able to advance beyond stone age capabilities.
    What are the odds of that?
     
    
11. The Earth went through an episode of "life gone wild", the Carboniferous. Without this episode, we wouldn't have had the abundant coal, oil, and gas that were essential for civilization to progress beyond iron age capabilities.
    What are the odds of that?
     
    
12. Now that we are "civilized" we have the weapons to wipe ourselves off the face of the planet. We came very close to doing so at least once in the Cuban missile crisis. Other civilizations may not be so lucky.
    What are the odds of that?

 

 

We don't have solid answers to any of the above questions. Some just require time. Some appear to be very likely, some very unlikely.

 

The first item means that life as we know it could not have arisen with the very first stars. If there were planets, they would have been nothing but hydrogen and helium. This further restricts the sphere from which aliens could have reached us. The "right kind" of star rules out the short-lived, highly unstable massive stars, and quite possibly red dwarfs as well. That still leaves a whole lot of stars that are the "right kind". Regarding everything else: We don't know. Answering that is one of the reasons for the Kepler mission.

 

Whether the Moon is essential is still debatable, but this is gaining ground. The likelihood of such a collision: We don't know, but it certainly seems flukey.

 

It certainly appears that plate tectonics is essential to life as we know it. Venus doesn't have plate tectonics, but then again Venus is inhospitable to life for a number of reasons. Mars may have had plate tectonics arise; we don't know. Mars is too small to have plate tectonics continue for billions of years.

 

Regarding the appearance of simple life, complex life, multicellular life, intelligent life: Based on a sample size of one (always a bad thing to do), it doesn't take much time for simple life to form, not much longer for intelligent life to form once multicellular life has formed. It is the appearance of complex life and multicellular life that are low probability events.

 

Regarding all the rest: They imply that long lasting, civilized life is very rare. Couple that with the other low probability events and you get that civilized life is very, very rare. This is the problem with aliens. If the closest alien civilization is a galaxy away, getting here is highly problematic. If the closest is many galaxies away, they'll never get here.

 

Note that this does not say we are unique in the universe. There's a huge gulf between very, very rare and one of a kind.

[imatfaal]

!

Moderator Note

The pyramid power discussion has been split off to a new thread. Apologies if I have missed anything, or split off a post by mistake.

[dapifo]

D.H.

 

Why are you so obsessed with defending that aliens have ever visited Earth?

 

Do not let even a small chance that this happens?

[studiot]

Why are you so obsessed with defending that aliens have ever visited Earth?

 

 

Obviously I must let DH speak for himself.

 

However as a practical person here are my thoughts on the question 'Have aliens visited Earth?'

 

Firstly

I propose a 'working hypothesis'.

This can be either they have or they have not.

 

A sensible practical person selects his hypothesis on the basis of consistency with the preponderance of known facts.

 

As such, most of the evidence I see around me is negative so I select 'they have not'.

 

Next

I break down the hypothesis into a series of steps, because perhaps aliens exist, but they have not yet visited Earth or they haven't visited very often and there are few if any traces left.

 

In order to have visited

 

a)Life must have developed somewhere else in the universe

 

b)That life must have evolved into aliens capable of travelling to Earth and perhaps leaving again.

 

c)Even if they could travel to Earth they must have the motivation, given the possiibly very large number of other places they might have chosen to go. If there is one advanced alien civilisation, why not more? Wouldn't one of these be a more attractive destination?

Edited July 4, 2012 by studiot