Al Qaqaa Explosives

[Phi for All]

From a Reuters story today: http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=578&u=/nm/20041025/ts_nm/iraq_explosives_dc_4

 

380 tons of explosives, including HMX, missing from a site that should have been secured a long time ago. Needless to say, a major screw-up by the US military. From the story:

Vienna diplomats said the IAEA had cautioned the United States about the danger of the explosives before the war, and after the invasion it specifically told U.S. officials about the need to keep the them secured.

U.S. national security adviser Condoleezza Rice was informed about the missing explosives only within the last month, the Times said, adding that it was unclear whether President Bush was aware.

We've known since before the war that these explosives needed to be secured, and now we seem to be surprised they are missing.

[Mad Mardigan]

They must be with the WMDs we cant find anywhere.

[Pangloss]

What I want to know is: Who in their right mind things that all explosives and weapons would have been secured even if the most extreme (at the large end) troop estimates had been used?

[Phi for All]

What I want to know is: Who in their right mind things that all explosives and weapons would have been secured even if the most extreme (at the large end) troop estimates had been used?

I'm not talking about "all explosives", I'm talking about a known stockpile of HMX we were warned about BEFORE we invaded, an explosive used to detonate nuclear material. If you can't spare the manpower to guard all the stockpiles, you destroy it or you take it to facilities you CAN guard.

[Douglas]

I'm not talking about "all explosives", I'm talking about a known stockpile of HMX we were warned about BEFORE we invaded, an explosive used to detonate nuclear material. If you can't spare the manpower to guard all the stockpiles, you destroy it or you take it to facilities you CAN guard.

I had read that the U.S. army had already destroyed in the order of 4000 tons of explosives. Not sure if they received advanced notice about the location of the stuff.

[Pangloss]

Just to clarify, I wasn't aiming that comment at you specifically, Phi. I was responding more to the general tenor of the story as it was played out in the media today (as exemplified by Clinton's stump speech). I probably could have phrased that better.

 

I agree with those who are saying that it was generally a mistake not to send more troops for the occupation, but I hope that by now we've laid to rest the notion that not enough troops were sent for the initial war. Given that it was the same people telling him "more troops" in both cases, perhaps the mistake is understandable. Shinseki was wrong, and it's no wonder the jerk resigned.

 

But as I said, even if you send a MILLION men into Iraq, you don't get to cover all the stockpiles. ALL of them were "known", Phi. Almost NONE of them were covered. These things are like dandelions over there. We've known this for 18 months now.

 

It's a dead horse, being beaten strictly for political reasons, and the lowest political reason at that: TV sound bites.

[Douglas]

380 tons of explosives, including HMX, missing from a site that should have been secured a long time ago. Needless to say, a major screw-up by the US military. From the story:

From the Drudge report.

NBCNEWS: HUGE CACHE OF EXPLOSIVES VANISHED FROM SITE IN IRAQ -- AT LEAST 18 MONTHS AGO -- BEFORE TROOPS ARRIVED

 

Jumping on the TIMES exclusive, Dem presidential candidate John Kerry blasted the Bush administration for its failure to "guard those stockpiles."

 

"This is one of the great blunders of Iraq, one of the great blunders of this administration," Kerry said.

 

In an election week rush:

 

**ABCNEWS Mentioned The Iraq Explosives Depot At Least 4 Times

**CBSNEWS Mentioned The Iraq Explosives Depot At Least 7 Times

**MSNBC Mentioned The Iraq Explosives Depot At Least 37 Times

**CNN Mentioned The Iraq Explosives Depot At Least 50 Times

 

But tonight, NBCNEWS reported: The 380 tons of powerful conventional explosives were already missing back in April 10, 2003 -- when U.S. troops arrived at the installation south of Baghdad!

 

An NBCNEWS crew embedded with troops moved in to secure the Al-Qaqaa weapons facility on April 10, 2003, one day after the liberation of Iraq.

 

According to NBCNEWS, the HMX and RDX explosives were already missing when the American troops arrived.

 

The TIMES left the impression the weapons site had been looted of its explosives recently, and since Iraq has been under US control.

 

The TIMES reported: "The huge facility, called Al Qaqaa, was supposed to be under American military control but is now a no man's land, still picked over by looters as recently as Sunday."

 

[in a fresh Page One story set for Tuesday on the matter, the TIMES once again omits any reference to troops not finding any explosives at the site when they arrived in April of 2003. Attempts to reach managing editor Jill Abramson late Monday were unsuccessful.

[Phi for All]

So was it the UN weapons inspectors who let that much slip through their fingers? Why did Mohamed ElBaradei wait until now to report the matter to the U.N. Security Council? If they had been missing since before the war, why did Condi Rice get a warning this month?

[Douglas]

"This is one of the great blunders of Iraq, one of the great blunders of this administration," Kerry said.

 

Looks like Kerry is betting the farm on this issue. Methinks he should have stuck with the economy.

[budullewraagh]

how is this betting the farm? he is merely explaining one of the reasons why bush is a negligent fool

[bloodhound]

the IAEA have been monitoring those explosives upto the start of the war due to their dual use in nuclear warheads.

[Pangloss]

First it was hundreds of tons. Then the Iraqi provos decided it was 140 tons (somebody obviously woke up and remembered they were a puppet regime). Now the UN says it was THREE tons (god knows why).

 

But even if it were 5,000 tons, it would still be nothing more than a partisan talking point brought up at the 11th hour for purely political reasons.

 

 

This horse is so dead ONLY an ideologue would beat it. Watch who beats it over the next few days, on BOTH sides, in the campaign, on the Internet, and even here. Those are the people you want to run from. Fast.

[blike]

The funny thing is, the media seems to be giving Kerry a free pass and not calling him on this obvious and blatant lie. That's such crap. If GW made said the same thing there would be front page headlines about it.

 

Now there are claims that Russia moved the explosives to Syria in March '03. dun dun dunnnn

 

John A. Shaw, the deputy undersecretary of defense for international technology security, said in an interview that he believes the Russian troops, working with Iraqi intelligence, "almost certainly" removed the high-explosive material that went missing from the Al-Qaqaa facility, south of Baghdad.

"The Russians brought in, just before the war got started, a whole series of military units," Mr. Shaw said. "Their main job was to shred all evidence of any of the contractual arrangements they had with the Iraqis. The others were transportation units."

 

http://www.washingtontimes.com/national/20041028-122637-6257r.htm

[Douglas]

The funny thing is' date=' the media seems to be giving Kerry a free pass and not calling him on this obvious and blatant lie. That's such crap. If GW made said the same thing there would be front page headlines about it.

[/quote']

Blike, Yep, but think on the positive side, "60 minutes" was supposed to break this story on this coming Sunday night.........too late for damage control.

[budullewraagh]

blame the soviets! i mean russians! wait theyre soviets now and communists!

[Pangloss]

I blame Canada.

[Douglas]

I blame Canada.

Let's be reasonable, How about Luxembourg?

[Pangloss]

No. Canada.

 

They killed Kenny!

[blike]

Here it comes:

 

"Soldier to brief reporters at Pentagon within the hour that he was tasked with removing explosives from al Qaqaa and he and his unit removed 200+ tons."

 

Will John Kerry publically retract his claim?

[YT2095]

has anyone considered that HMX/RDX has a limited shelf life too?

Granted it`ll last longer than some other well known type, but they all decompose over time into rubbish, and this stuff was stolen last April, and who knows how long it was stored there before that???? In baking heat too!

 

just a thought

 

edit: and PLEASE don`t preach to me about WW2 bombs found on beaches, that`s a TOTALY dif type of Compound

[Douglas]

Here it comes:

 

"Soldier to brief reporters at Pentagon within the hour that he was tasked with removing explosives from al Qaqaa and he and his unit removed 200+ tons."

 

Will John Kerry publically retract his claim?

I said this before, I think Kerry bet the farm on this issue, it'll be a little tough to retract.

[bloodhound]

well.. theres a video out... i dont think its necessary for him to retract.

[revprez]

I'm not talking about "all explosives", I'm talking about a known stockpile of HMX we were warned about BEFORE we invaded, an explosive used to detonate nuclear material. If you can't spare the manpower to guard all the stockpiles, you destroy it or you take it to facilities you CAN guard.

 

So either detail a plan that would've met your expectations for securing or eliminating weapon caches and justify its force correlation or move on.

 

Rev Prez

[YT2095]

HMX, explosive used to detonate nuclear material.

actualy HMX CAN! detonate Nuclear material, but isn`t used (for more than obvious reasons).

 

TATB or 2,4,6-trinitro-1,3,5-benzenetramine (C6H6N6O6) is the prefered material

 

anyone using HMX would have to even MORE stupid than you`re average suicide bomber!

 

granted it has the DV needed same at TATB, but so does NitroG

[Phi for All]

We actually had troops there at Al Qaqaa shortly after the invasion who inspected the site, but apparently were so intent on WMD that they left material used in nuclear weapons manufacture behind. Reports say they saw the material in bunkers but didn't inspect it to discover whether it was HMX or not.

 

I don't blame the soldiers. They do what they are ordered to do. But why wasn't an order given from the top that if you actually find a cache of high-power explosives that you destroy it? I'm sure there is a lot I don't know about the logistics of destroying munitions, but it would seem prudent not to leave them in enemy hands if you find them, can't secure them and could conceivably destroy them.