New Titan Photos

[ed84c]

The first Photos of Titan from Cassini are now out.

 

The Cassini Probe intends to land on the moon to find out about the surface, as it is predicted to show conditions similar to early earth.

 

See the link for more info and the photos

 

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/3953187.stm

[aurigus]

I'm really looking forward to the results from the probe that will enter Titan's atmosphere. The environment there seems to be fairly unique in our solar system.

[ed84c]

Claims to be like earths early atmosphere, I have no recolection of it being full of methane?

 

Also it is a amusing how they explain this by saying 'lakes full of lighter fluid' CAN WE NOT HANDLE THE WORD METHANE?

[ydoaPs]

lighter fluid? i thought most lighters used butane

[ed84c]

not according to the BBC

[Sayonara]

Since when do 'atmosphere' and 'lake' mean the same thing?

[Gilded]

Mmm... Titan would be a nice place to live. Only about 160% atmospheric pressure compared to Earth, 1/7 Earth's gravity... The only minus (literally) is the over -170 Celsius temperature. :<

[aurigus]

You could probably argue that the earth's atmosphere is a lake of nitrogen, oxygen, etc. Of course "lake" is usually meant to mean liquid, but I could see the argument I suppose.

 

Those science articles are written so joe blow can read them.

[Gilded]

"Those science articles are written so joe blow can read them."

 

Heh, I couldn't have said it better. "'ey Billy-Bob, what's that dar me-tain?"

 

"You could probably argue that the earth's atmosphere is a lake of nitrogen, oxygen, etc. Of course "lake" is usually meant to mean liquid, but I could see the argument I suppose."

 

I don't think it's appropriate to use the word "lake" to describe a thing that covers the entire planet. It could be a "sea" or an "ocean" of N and O (and other miscellaneous stuff).

[TimeTraveler]

Since when do 'atmosphere' and 'lake' mean the same thing?

 

They believe there are methane lakes that evaporate and form the methane clouds found in Titan's atmosphere.

 

"According to their model, Titan is so cold that methane can form liquid pools on its surface. When this liquid is heated by the sun, it evaporates, forming methane clouds." Henry Bortman Astrobiology Magazine

 

Here is the story- http://www.space.com/scienceastronomy/titan_mysteries_041028.html

[Sayonara]

True, but that doesn't mean that (a) the lakes and the atmosphere are the same thing, or (b) that either of them exclusively contain methane.

[ed84c]

They believe there are methane lakes that evaporate and form the methane clouds found in Titan's atmosphere.

 

"According to their model' date=' Titan is so cold that methane can form liquid pools on its surface. When this liquid is heated by the sun, it evaporates, forming methane clouds." Henry Bortman [i']Astrobiology Magazine[/i]

 

Here is the story- http://www.space.com/scienceastronomy/titan_mysteries_041028.html

 

Thats what I meant CH4 rain as well

[Bernstein]

True, but that doesn't mean that (a) the lakes and the atmosphere are the same thing, or (b) that either of them exclusively contain methane.

 

It means that they are parts of a whole - the methane cycle on the surface of Titan. I read also that hydrocarbon rain can fill in craters left by meteor strikes and that volcanic activity can resurface the hydrocarbons. It seems to be a complex system. Titan is a complex world rich in possibilities for scientific investigation. This is an exciting project.

[Sayonara]

I don't dispute any of that, but it still doesn't mean that 'lake' and 'atmosphere' are synonymous.

 

Which, by the way, was originally raised in reference to post #3.

[ed84c]

Lets try to not get bogged down in this sort of thing (were not lawyers)

 

Who thinks theyll find life (i dont)

[Gilded]

"Who thinks theyll find life (i dont)"

 

A species that can live among methane lakes (or clouds)? It's not going to be carbon based, that's fairly sure. So my answer is no. Either way, my policy about finding new lifeforms: a) Carbon-based: who cares? b) silicon or other element based: WTF?

[ed84c]

Germanium based even

[TimeTraveler]

Well I doubt that, even if life does exist on this moon, we will find it on this mission. Huygens will only be active for about 3 minutes in the atmosphere of Titan and when it lands it is predicted to land in liquid and go offline from my understanding. So unless we can detect life in that amount of time I doubt we will find any.

 

Why cannot carbon based life exist in methane atmosphere? and is it possible (proveable or theoretical) for silicon life to even exist? or any other form besides carbon?

 

Forgive me, my biology knowledge is nil

[Gilded]

Well I'm not absolutely sure if the carbon structure could withstand such extreme temperatures. Hard to tell really.

 

"and is it possible (proveable or theoretical) for silicon life to even exist?"

 

It hasn't been proved, as all lifeforms that have been found are C-based. :/ Even if we would find a tiny micro-organism that's Si-based, it would be... well, extraordinary. But generally it's thought that if there's another base for life than carbon, it's silicon. My biology knowledge is quite low too, so I'm probably making an ass out of myself explaining these things. :>

[Ophiolite]

Well I'm not absolutely sure if the carbon structure could withstand such extreme temperatures.

A group of non-biologists discussing bio-chemistry; excellent. Can anyone join in? Thanks.

 

Life is constanly fighting a battle to stay in one piece - which is why when you die, you don't - stay in one piece. The colder it is the less likely you are to go to pieces (Gosh, that must be why we use refrigerators!)

 

The flip side of the coin is that the very chemical reactions that constitute life preceed much more slolwy at lower temperatures, and would need some currently unimaginable chemistry to work. TANSTAAFL.

So anything that did live there would be slow, ponderous, single minded and icy cold. [Remember you heard it here first, the Titanians are Republicans.]

 

For a more sophisticated treatment of this same argument (minus the cheap political shot) I imagine googling [biochemistry entropy thermodynamics "reaction rates"] might turn up something.

[Gilded]

"So anything that did live there would be slow, ponderous, single minded and icy cold."

 

Yes, if it was C-based, that is. It could be like, well... like... a... you know, thing with like, uhh, stuff.

 

"[Remember you heard it here first, the Titanians are Republicans.]"

 

I've always said that Bush is from another planet (or planetoid), and not in a good way. He probably takes liquid methane baths on Sundays, too.

 

"Well I'm not absolutely sure if the carbon structure could withstand such extreme temperatures."

 

D'oh, I didn't really mean the actual carbon bonds or anything like that, but for example water freezing in the cells, which generally isn't a good thing, like the "chemical process slowing down when temperature drops". Anyway, I got to stop eating them red mushrooms in the backyard. :<

[Ophiolite]

D'oh, I didn't really mean the actual carbon bonds or anything like that, but for example water freezing in the cells, which generally isn't a good thing, like the "chemical process slowing down when temperature drops". Anyway, I got to stop eating them red mushrooms in the backyard. :<

Right, but you did say carbon bonds. I agree water would be a problem, which was why I said it would need some currently unimaginable chemistry to work. I don't actually think the chemistry is unimaginable - its just unimaginable to me. I was hoping my comment would incite a reaction from one of the chemists. (Oh, Subtlety where is thy sting?)

 

I see you're in Finland. I had the great pleasure of mapping a mantled gneiss dome in the vicinity of Liperansalo, near Joensu, some years ago. Great time. Great people.

[Bernstein]

Extremophiles are microorganisms that can withstand extreme adverse environmental conditions such as high radiation, below freezing permafrost, and volcanic vents. Furthermore there is evidence to suggest that certain life forms here on Earth can survive in a complete abscence of oxygen. Water is a necessary prerequisite for life and so in the event that no water exists on Titan then there will be NO life there.

 

However the key to this issue is understanding that certain compounds important to the formation of aminoacids, and other biochemical matter, important for the formation of life existed here when conditions here were supposedly similiar to those found on Titan today. This means that on Titan these prelife compounds may turn up under scientific scrutiny.

 

I don't think anyone is looking for plankton, unicells, Republicans or any other primitive carbon based life just yet! (LOL@Ophiolite!)

[Ophiolite]

Broadly agree with everything you have said here. Absolutely we should be looking for the details of the pre-biotic chemistry. If it's nicely complex (let's hear it for the peptides) that augers well for the 'life is commonplace' school. If not, well......

And let's say that water is a necessary pre-requisite for life as we know it. {Ammonia?}

[ed84c]

finding peptides doesnt prove life exists. Indeed slam a mix of most chemicals involved (N, C, H, O etc) at a planet and they will form a peptide.