New "dwarf hominid" remains discovered in Indonesia

[Mokele]

Dear god, Proto-Mokele was proto-PETA. The Shame! ::commits sepuku::

 

On the other hand, mammoths were herbivores. It's harder to hunt something that's hunting you. Not impossible, but a lot harder.

 

Mokele

[ed84c]

Dear god' date=' Proto-Mokele was proto-PETA. The Shame! ::commits sepuku::

 

On the other hand, mammoths were herbivores. It's harder to hunt something that's hunting you. Not impossible, but a lot harder.

 

Mokele[/quote']

Is it ? Sure saves a lot of chasing

[Mokele]

I dunno about you, but if I'm hunting a predator, I prefer not to deal with it launching itself at me mouth-first. Not to mention that, in a direct attack, the little humanoids wouldn't have stood a chance against something with a hide that their tools can't penetrate and the ability to eviscerate them before they know what hit them.

 

While I don't say they never managed to kill and eat a Komodo, I think it was about as common as an African member of our genus killing and eating a leopard. It probably happened, but much more often it was the other way around. Individuals who habitually leap into the jaws of death tend to be selected against.

 

Mokele

[Spaceman]

Im surprised nobody hasnt mentioned the real significance of the find.The surviving DNA,Its been reported that the samples are so fresh and abundant they are going to try cloning this creature.I do have grave concerns over doing this.Were so up ourselves that we dont realise they may have become extinct for a friggin good reason

[Ophiolite]

If this report, on cloning, is accurate it does raise a host of ethical questions. Most of them revolve around whether we consider it this creature or a fellow human.

 

Mokele, re-hunting predators or herbivores, you were quite right to take me to tusk for the mammoths!

[Auburngirl05]

I came across this page on the UC Davis website, and thought it was

pretty interesting, it cites a _Nature_ article that apparently

foreshadows the recent Flores finds.

http://www.geology.ucdavis.edu/~cowen/HistoryofLife/erectusatsea.html

 

The abstract for that article is here: http://www.nature.com/cgitaf/DynaPage.taf?file=/nature/journal/v392/n6672/abs/392173a0_fs.html , I'm not a

subscriber so I couldn't access the whole thing but I thought I'd

pass that much along at least, it was definitely interesting to read

earlier conclusions on the topic and compare them to the current theories that are being put forward.

[Ophiolite]

Very interesting. Thanks for sharing it with us. I couldn't get into the abstract directly by your link - it kept generating various errors. This one worked, however:http://www.nature.com/cgi-taf/DynaPage.taf?file=/nature/journal/v392/n6672/abs/392173a0_fs.html

Oops - that's the same as your link. There must be an intermittent problem on their server.

[Sorcerer]

How do they know these are a distinct species and not just immature H. erectus/java man. How do they tell that these are tiny adults, and not children?

[Ophiolite]

Structural changes in the skeleton over a lifespan allow adults to be distinguished from children.

[Sorcerer]

But from what I read they found one skeleton which was the consistency of paper mache and a tooth from another individual, if they are using the tooth to determine that the other is an adult, it doesnt make sense. How can they analyse structural changes in a gooey skeleton? And which structural changes do they analyse.

[Sorcerer]

Since the initial find includes the remains of eight individuals,then that does not compute.

 

A family group with both parents being homozygous for a dwarfism gene?

[Auburngirl05]

http://www.nature.com/cgi-taf/DynaPage.taf?file=/nature/journal/v392/n6672/abs/392173a0_fs.html

http://www-geology.ucdavis.edu/~cowen/HistoryofLife/erectusatsea.html

 

Sorry about the link problems, see if those work any better. If it still doesn't cooperate, you could run a search from the Nature website, the article was in the March 12, 1998 issue.

[Ophiolite]

But from what I read they found one skeleton which was the consistency of paper mache and a tooth from another individual, if they are using the tooth to determine that the other is an adult, it doesnt make sense. How can they analyse structural changes in a gooey skeleton? And which structural changes do they analyse.

I believe they found a total of eight individuals. You are correct about the consistency of the bones, but I don't think this effects the the structural markers. I beleive these are primarily related to the fusion of certain bones in adulthood: adults have slightly fewer bones than children. There are probably microscopic differnces too, but the condition of the material, as you have suggested, may render these ineffective in this case.

 

Edit: AuburnGirl, your two latest links are working perfectly. Thanks.

[LucidDreamer]

How do they know these are a distinct species and not just immature H. erectus/java man. How do they tell that these are tiny adults, and not children?

 

But from what I read they found one skeleton which was the consistency of paper mache and a tooth from another individual, if they are using the tooth to determine that the other is an adult, it doesnt make sense. How can they analyse structural changes in a gooey skeleton? And which structural changes do they analyse.

 

A family group with both parents being homozygous for a dwarfism gene

 

Yes, they have a skull with a cranium where the bones are completely fused and several teeth that are worn. I believe some of the teeth come from a skull that is fused. The fact that there is a skull with a fused cranium, worn teeth, and the remains from 7 other individuals is good evidence that these individuals are not children or freaks. Also I believe that they can estimate the age of the other bones by the wear and tear, but like you said the bones are "mushy." Also they have evidence that Flores man was on the island for hundreds of thousands of years (I believe) so its possible that we have just found a family of eight dwarfs on an island, but remember Homo sapien dwarfs don't have radically diminished cranial capacities and islands are known to “dwarf”(different kind of dwarfing) large mammals.

[SubJunk]

It could be possible. Let's remember that flores man was confined mainly on one island and most likely suffered from malnutrition (the explanation accredited to their size)

As we all know, larger brains mean a lot more food, and because of modern human's large EQ we need a lot of food for our size, but not just any food, we need varied food to maintain full brain activity. They probably didn't have very varied food at all. So who knows, if they had've lived in a better place in the world they might've been formidable enemies for Sapiens

There are also arguments that Floresiensis may not even belong to the genus homo due to hip formation and other things. Many aren't sure quite what to label it.

[Bernstein]

It adds an interesting chapter, but in what way does it shatter the story?

 

It proves the existence of intelligent hominids other than man. This is a 'human' of an altogether 'other' species. That is it is not homo sapiens. I believe it is refered to as homo diminutia and arises from a separate evolutionary path separate and distinct from our own. In this way it shatters current thinking across all strands of opinion.

[Ophiolite]

Well it doesn't shatter it across my strand of opinion. It is an exciting find, but to me is wholly consistent with the current story of human evolution. That story goes back over several million years, during which time several offshoots of the line leading to homo sapiens occured. All of these died out. Now we have a newly discovered variant whose distinguishing feature is that they died out more recently than any other (that has so far been found).

 

I ask again, in what way has this dicovery shattered the current story of human evolution? Are we postulating an earlier or later origin for humans, are we forced to reassess 'Out of Africa', has it brought into question any part of the central theme of human evolution? Perhaps it has, but I can't think of any example. You can. Please enlighten me.

 

Edit: Are you suggesting that until this discovery man was the only intelligent hominid known??!!

[Spaceman]

It could be possible. Let's remember that flores man was confined mainly on one island and most likely suffered from malnutrition (the explanation accredited to their size)

As we all know' date=' larger brains mean a lot more food, and because of modern human's large EQ we need a [i']lot[/i] of food for our size, but not just any food, we need varied food to maintain full brain activity. They probably didn't have very varied food at all. So who knows, if they had've lived in a better place in the world they might've been formidable enemies for Sapiens

There are also arguments that Floresiensis may not even belong to the genus homo due to hip formation and other things. Many aren't sure quite what to label it.

no no No,dont try to make something simple into an argument.

Bloody hell man a dinosaur had brainsize like of a walnut,what are you saying it wasnt ****ing hungry

[Aardvark]

It proves the existence of intelligent hominids other than man. This is a 'human' of an altogether 'other' species. That is it is not homo sapiens. I believe it is refered to as homo diminutia and arises from a separate evolutionary path separate and distinct from our own. In this way it shatters current thinking across all strands of opinion.

 

 

But we've known for a long time that other human varieties have have existed in the past. This find is very exciting but doesn't challenge current thinking.

[SubJunk]

spaceman, just calm down.

Click here and read through the whole thing.

Also, here's a quote from the december 2002 issue of Scientific American by William Leonard:

"From a nutritional perspective, what is extraordinary about our large brain is how much energy it consumes--roughly 16 times as much as muscle tissue per unit weight... In fact, at rest brain metabolism accounts for a whopping 20 to 25 percent of an adult human's energy needs--far more than the 8 to 10 percent observed in nonhuman primates."

Here's an interesting link too.

[Spaceman]

It could be possible. Let's remember that flores man was confined mainly on one island and most likely suffered from malnutrition (the explanation accredited to their size)

As we all know' date=' larger brains mean a lot more food, and because of modern human's large EQ we need a [i']lot[/i] of food for our size, but not just any food, we need varied food to maintain full brain activity. They probably didn't have very varied food at all. So who knows, if they had've lived in a better place in the world they might've been formidable enemies for Sapiens

There are also arguments that Floresiensis may not even belong to the genus homo due to hip formation and other things. Many aren't sure quite what to label it.

Subjunk i took your advice and read your link but failed to see how this varifies your above statement,I agree alot of people in USA eat too much macdonalds but as a species , in relation to bodysize Humans do not need to consume vast amounts of food.Take a veggie eating 3 salads a day with a total food weight of 1 pound.Nutrition has no real relevence to how much mass you consume(i get by on a bag of peanuts and a nice mackrel a day)

[Sayonara]

Well, bear in mind that the human brain accounts for 25% of the body's energy requirements.

 

We might not need so much mass for our bodies, but we certainly need the right food for thought.

[Spaceman]

Well' date=' bear in mind that the human brain accounts for 25% of the body's energy requirements.

 

We might not need so much mass for our bodies, but we certainly need the right food for thought.[/quote']

I totally agree with that sayanora

[LucidDreamer]

I just can't see a hominid evolving into a less intelligent species. I think it's more likely that they evolved a more efficient, space-saving and energy-efficient brain. Homo sapiens have a great degree of redundancy in their brains and it’s likely that Homo erectus had some redundancy as well. This redundancy might be sacrificed before the intellectual capability.

 

If there was a lack of food resources on the island then there were pressures. A hominid’s intelligence is the only thing he has going for him so I don't see him loosing his only asset.

 

Then again perhaps they did loose intelligence. Maybe the island was a paradise that provided all of their needs except for those pesky komodo dragons that hunted them. Maybe this hominid re-gained the ability to live in trees to escape the dragons. Since a small stature is advantageous for climbing trees he shrank and because he no longer roamed around vast areas of wilderness, coming in contact with many predators, challenges, other tribes, and species of hominids, he lost certain kinds intellectual abilities in that he no longer needed in favor of energy efficiency. He probably kept the kinds that he did actually use.

 

We won't know until we gather more data and get a little more time to think it over.

[Aardvark]

I just can't see a hominid evolving into a less intelligent species. I think it's more likely that they evolved a more efficient' date=' space-saving and energy-efficient brain. Homo sapiens have a great degree of redundancy in their brains and it’s likely that Homo erectus had some redundancy as well. This redundancy might be sacrificed before the intellectual capability.

[/quote']

 

 

I think intelligence could decline in certain circumstances. If it is not being selected for then as an expensive luxury it could atropy in the same way deep sea fish lose their eyes.

 

The idea of evolving a more efficent brain would be a good alternative, but what redundancy are you refering to? It seems odd that homo sapiens would evolve in a wasteful way to have useless redundancy in the brain.