Brain computer interfacing?

[iNow]

Okay. That helps. Yes, I think we do have technology like this, but it's still in its infancy. I'm unsure if autistics would or would not benefit from such technology. It's an interesting question. I have, however, seen the immense impact simple apps on the iPad have had with many.

 

http://www.cbsnews.com/video/watch/?id=7385686n

[TransformerRobot]

I have Aspbergers Syndrome, and even I don't fully understand Autism, other than it can affect how people under the spectrum think, and even their physical functions. I'd rather not openly discuss what it's done to me.

[iNow]

Ok.

[TransformerRobot]

If any members here are microbiologists that would be helpful.

[Ben Banana]

Don't you mean "Neurologist"? And if you're really just interested in the Autistic spectrum, you'd plainly ask a psychologist.

[TransformerRobot]

Sorry, I should've said neurologist, but it'd be nice to meet a neurologist as well. Autism is considered a disorder, even though a lot of people would rather it not be called a disorder.

[Ben Banana]

A neurologist wouldn't be able to tell you anything about Autism. However, they would be able to discuss "Brain Computer Interfacing"

[Xittenn]

Don't you mean "Neurologist"? And if you're really just interested in the Autistic spectrum, you'd plainly ask a psychologist.

 

I'm sorry, but wouldn't one plainly ask a psychiatrist as Autism is hardly a psychologist's department. The disorder is obviously not an environmentally or socially induced illness. Do correct me if I'm wrong.

[TransformerRobot]

No, I don't think it is either. I may have been born with it, but I didn't show signs of it until I was a toddler. When I was a baby I had breathing troubles so I needed an incubator. That, and a traumatic birth.

[Ben Banana]

@Xittenn

I was wrong. My bad.. I should have known that. Thanks.

 

@TransformerRobot

I didn't show signs of it until I was a toddler.

I didn't show signs of it until 8-13.

Edited December 21, 2011 by Ben Bowen

[iNow]

I'm sorry, but wouldn't one plainly ask a psychiatrist as Autism is hardly a psychologist's department.

Unless you are suggesting they need medication and nothing more, this statement is rather meaningless. Can you elaborate on what you meant?

 

The disorder is obviously not an environmentally or socially induced illness. Do correct me if I'm wrong.

No. You made the claim. Now, back it up. What evidence can you share with readers that supports your contention that disorders on the autistic spectrum are purely genetic? I'm not saying you're wrong, I"m saying you are the one who should support your comments... Or, at the very least, confirm the accuracy of them prior to putting them forth.

[TransformerRobot]

I have personal experience, considering I've been under the spectrum all my life.

 

No, I don't think people with autism need psychiatrists to prescribe them anything. If they were diagnosed with psychosis or schizophrenia, then yes they would need to be medicated, but those are different from Autism.

[Daedalus]

I also have Aspergers. I mainly exhibit a focus on numbers and have difficulty with grammar. It affects people differently and you can read about it here:

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asperger_syndrome

 

As for brain computer interfacing, I've seen two techinques used. One is the BrainGate system where they implant a chip into the brain that allows the user to control a computer mouse:

 

http://news.brown.edu/pressreleases/2011/03/braingate

 

This technique could be potentially dangerous if the design doesn't protect the user from overvoltage caused by lightning strikes or similiar causes. This is because the device is directly touching the brain. The other technique uses a device to sense electrical activity in the brain which does not actually touch the brain. This makes it a much safer option, but more complicated to detect the electrical signals. However, I would imagine that the BrainGate system uses an opto-isolator to protect the circuitry touching the brain from the circuitry attached to the computer. But, I don't know if that is part of the design.

[Xittenn]

Unless you are suggesting they need medication and nothing more, this statement is rather meaningless. Can you elaborate on what you meant?

 

I'm suggesting that it is the profession of the Psychiatrist who has better authority over the matter. I'm sure any amount of supporting care could be employed should need be.

 

No. You made the claim. Now, back it up. What evidence can you share with readers that supports your contention that disorders on the autistic spectrum are purely genetic? I'm not saying you're wrong, I"m saying you are the one who should support your comments... Or, at the very least, confirm the accuracy of them prior to putting them forth.

 

I hadn't made any statements about genetics, I will say that I believe them to be purely mechanical, at least the cases of real interest. And although there is some play in the defined boundaries of the disorder, I'm sure anyone who reviews any of the plentifully made available information on the subject would simply agree with this generalization.

[iNow]

I'm suggesting that it is the profession of the Psychiatrist who has better authority over the matter. I'm sure any amount of supporting care could be employed should need be.

I understand that is what you were saying. I'm asking why you are saying that. Functionally speaking, the difference between a psychiatrist and a psychologist is the ability to prescribe medication. The rest is largely the same, yet you said that this area of autism treatment was the purview of psychiatrists, not psychologists. This implies that you think medication is the only valid treatment for autistic spectrum disorders.

 

Simply repeating yourself doesn't clarify what you said it in the first place.

 

I hadn't made any statements about genetics

You may not realize this, but actually... you did. You said, "The disorder is obviously not an environmentally or socially induced illness." If it's not environmental, and it's not socially induced, then there is nothing left to cause it except genetics. It's the logical consequence of what you said.

 

Is there anything else it could be other than genetics IF it's not environmental? If so, I'd love to hear it.

 

I will say that I believe them to be purely mechanical, at least the cases of real interest. And although there is some play in the defined boundaries of the disorder, I'm sure anyone who reviews any of the plentifully made available information on the subject would simply agree with this generalization.

Actually, your "review of the plentiful information" is apparently incomplete. Here is a write-up of a study released just a few months ago, the actual study published just last month in the Archives of General Psychiatry and it clearly indicates that BOTH genetic and environmental factors play critical roles in these disorders:

 

 

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/07/05/health/research/05autism.html

 

A new study of twins suggests that environmental factors, including conditions in the womb, may be at least as important as genes in causing autism.

 

<...>

 

“This is a very significant study because it confirms that genetic factors are involved in the cause of the disorder,” said Dr. Peter Szatmari, a leading autism researcher who is the head of child psychiatry and behavioral neuroscience at McMaster University in Ontario. “But it shifts the focus to the possibility that environmental factors could also be really important.”

 

<...>

 

“I think we now understand that both genetic and environmental factors have to be taken seriously,” said Dr. Joachim Hallmayer, an associate professor of psychiatry and behavioral sciences at Stanford and the lead author of the new study, which is to be published in the November issue of Archives of General Psychiatry.

 

Other experts have cited factors like parental age, multiple pregnancies, low birth weight and exposure to medications or maternal infection during pregnancy.

 

In the new study, the largest of its kind among twins, researchers looked at 192 pairs of identical and fraternal twins whose cases were drawn from California databases. At least one twin in each pair had the classic form of autism

 

<...>

 

The study found that autism or autism spectrum disorders occurred in both children in 77 percent of the male identical twins and in 50 percent of the female identical twins. As expected, the rates among fraternal twins were lower: 31 percent of males and 36 percent of females.

 

But surprisingly, mathematical modeling suggested that only 38 percent of the cases could be attributed to genetic factors, compared with the 90 percent suggested by previous studies.

 

And more surprising still, shared environmental factors appeared to be at work in 58 percent of the cases.

 

 

 

I don't mean offense, but you plainly said to "Please correct you if you're wrong." That's all I'm doing, because... well, you were wrong.

[Xittenn]

I understand that is what you were saying. I'm asking why you are saying that. Functionally speaking, the difference between a psychiatrist and a psychologist is the ability to prescribe medication. The rest is largely the same, yet you said that this area of autism treatment was the purview of psychiatrists, not psychologists. This implies that you think medication is the only valid treatment for autistic spectrum disorders.

 

Simply repeating yourself doesn't clarify what you said it in the first place.

 

 

I was just making it clear, that this was all I really had to say.

 

Unless the Psychologist works in a specialization that focuses on brain function like Neuropsychology, then the Psychologist is more than likely focused on some form of Behavioural Psychology and is not capable of providing care outside of their research. A Psychiatrist on the other hand, is formally trained in most areas of mental and behavioural disorders. A Psychiatrist might specialize in certain disorders within their practice, as opposed to within their education and residency. The fact that a Psychiatrist can prescribe the necessary meds just further adds to the number of reasons why someone who suffers from any mental disorder should, and probably would see a Psychiatrist first. A Neuropsychologist may still not have any proper education in Autistic Spectrum Disorders.

 

You may not realize this, but actually... you did. You said, "The disorder is obviously not an environmentally or socially induced illness." If it's not environmental, and it's not socially induced, then there is nothing left to cause it except genetics. It's the logical consequence of what you said.

 

Firstly, I made this statement.

 

It is not the logical consequence of what I had said. If someone chooses to be an alcoholic, and their alcoholism causes an internal chemical imbalance that results in a mental disorder, then the mental disorder is a result of the internal chemical imbalance. The drinking might be caused by environmental or social factors.

 

If someone is bumped on the head and there is internal bruising that causes a mental disorder, the mental disorder is caused by internal bruising.

Edited December 22, 2011 by Xittenn

[iNow]

I'm not sure how to be more clear than I was already, but you don't seem to be grasping the point. And, for what it's worth, you seem to have some misconceptions about psychologists that could use correcting.

[khaled]

Greetings, I'm a theoretical computer scientist .. and I think that this post has been driven into a discussion between philosophy and psychology

 

An intelligent computer interface is under development currently in the AI field

 

Turing test is an important concept in this matter, you might wonder why or how

 

because simply, if an observer cannot know the human from the machine given both output, then the machine pass the test

 

but a machine that can pass turing test on any input does not exist, according to incompleteness

 

anyway, If you have any questions on how an intelligent interface is done, its approaches, or how do we make the machine actually "think"

[iNow]

Greetings, I'm a theoretical computer scientist ..

<...>

An intelligent computer interface is under development currently in the AI field

 

Turing test is an important concept in this matter

<...>

anyway, If you have any questions on how an intelligent interface is done, its approaches, or how do we make the machine actually "think"

Usually, an IF statement is followed by a THEN statement in conditional logic. However, in the closing sentence you presented above, the second half of that relation is noticeably absent, and hence one with questions cannot accurately take action on those questions using the instructions you provided.

[khaled]

Usually, an IF statement is followed by a THEN statement in conditional logic. However, in the closing sentence you presented above, the second half of that relation is noticeably absent, and hence one with questions cannot accurately take action on those questions using the instructions you provided.

 

unlike machines, humans do not need the obvious THEN closure ..

 

are you expecting me to provide you an algorithm on how to ask me a question on the presented subject ?

Edited December 26, 2011 by khaled

[iNow]

unlike machines, humans do not need the obvious THEN closure ..

If you want to know why you're wrong

 

are you expecting me to provide you an algorithm on how to ask me a question on the presented subject ?

I personally couldn't care less how to ask you a question. I feel I have better sources of information than you, but that's just me. I was merely pointing out that your instruction was incomplete and incoherent.

[khaled]

If you want to know why you're wrong

 

you have to mention THEN closure, because your opinion is only obvious to you.

 

I personally couldn't care less how to ask you a question. I feel I have better sources of information than you, but that's just me. I was merely pointing out that your instruction was incomplete and incoherent.

 

I can copy what Wikipedia says about AI, but in a discussion we talk about a specific thing, that is a "brain computer interfacing" I'd rather translate as

 

"Intelligent Assistant", and since my deeper interest lies in philosophy .. I went to early questions such as Turing Test.

 

This is computer science forums, and that's why I'm limiting this to Mathematical Logic and Computer, If you want to discuss this matter on

 

the philosophical side, you are welcome.

 

I'm neither supposed to write everything in AI, nor to speak about information sources .. despite the fact that you are now attacking me, out of 3 pages full

 

of nonsense .. can we land upon the shore of understand ?

 

-------------------

 

Speaking about what you need, there are many approaches:

 

- Finite State Machine (Automata)

 

- Game Theory (Decidability & Satisfiability)

 

- Complex Fuzzy Systems (Fuzzy Logic)

 

- Neural Networks (Neurology)

 

.. each approach has its advantages, and disadvantages

Edited December 26, 2011 by khaled

[iNow]

you have to mention THEN closure, because your opinion is only obvious to you.

You don't seem to have grasped the core of my point, and quite simply just contradicted your own.

[khaled]

You don't seem to have grasped the core of my point, and quite simply just contradicted your own.

 

You are right on the first, It's my bad that sometimes I don't read the post .. but I'm no paradox