Anti big-bang case for a creator

[njaohnt]

Wait, I'm confused -- you mean "doesn't" ? If not (and sorry for the confusion) then I'd love to see the quote that says something about the Big Bang. I studied the OT quite extensively, I've never seen anything remotely close to it.

 

 

True, the biblical account of creation does not state how long each day was, that much is true, and could have also taken 10,000,000 of what we consider "years" now. This would make the theory that the universe is 14 billion years old actually plausible, by the way, wouldn't it?

 

That said, the problems I have with the creation story isn't about the time, it's about the details:

 

I would expect a God that invents the laws of physics to get the details straight. Of course he COULD have changed the rules right after he invented them, and then change them back, but you have to admit that's quite a trick for a God that you claim really really wants us to believe he exists.

 

Here are two examples:

1. Creation of Day and Night in the first day. And yet, the creation of the Sun, moon and stars is on Day 4. How do you have day and night without the sun?
2. Follow up on the same principle, God creates the Earth, seas and Plants before the sun. First, no plants without the sun (and if each day is a lot longer than a few hours, the plants would die without sun light). Second, planet Earth would go whoooooshing through space without the gravity from the Sun. No orbit.
   And guess what? No tides, either, without the Moon, which was also created a day later.

Either god's TRYING to confuse us on purpose (and then why complain when we fall for it? he's a lot stronger!) or that's not the way things happened.

 

A rather nice lay out of some of the problems can be found in this page: http://www.vexen.co....html#Chronology

 

 

 

 

 

"I don't know" is much better for a discussion than "I don't care what you say, I'll stick to X". Don't you agree?

 

Time.

 

Who needs sun? They're MIRACLES.

 

Ok then, what happened to them? Where did they go?

 

No where. They Bible doesn't say anything about a lot of things. It doesn't need to say something about them.

 

If you believe that then why bother to discuss this on a science forum, you certinly cannot show any evidence of miracles. But I can and have shown evidence of God being a psychopathic liar... yes you ignored all the murder and mayhem that was done by the will of that evil being you worship.

 

I don't know. I was brought here by mooeypoo from another forum (remember anti-big-bang case far a creator?) Otherwise, I'd still be find out about my fuel cell.

[Moontanman]

Time.

 

Who needs sun? They're MIRACLES.

 

prove it...

 

 

 

No where. They Bible doesn't say anything about a lot of things. It doesn't need to say something about them.

 

And the bible says lots of things that are easily shown to be false, like Noah's Ark and genesis but there are many more and all the murder, genocide, rape, child molestation, seriously evil if god is real...

 

 

I don't know. I was brought here by mooeypoo from another forum (remember anti-big-bang case far a creator?) Otherwise, I'd still be find out about my fuel cell.

 

 

Seriously, if i were you I'd stick to the fuel cell despite the obvious fallacy of wanting to make and use something that science created, the very science that proves your holy book is bunk...

[mooeypoo]

Time.

 

Who needs sun? They're MIRACLES.

 

 

That's a nonsensical answer.

 

If you solve any inconsistency with the dismissive "they're miracles" then why even try to fit the biblical story to reality? Just admit it has nothing to do with it and be done with that.

 

You can't eat the cake and leave it whole. Either the bible follows reality, or it doesn't.

[njaohnt]

That's a nonsensical answer.

 

If you solve any inconsistency with the dismissive "they're miracles" then why even try to fit the biblical story to reality? Just admit it has nothing to do with it and be done with that.

 

You can't eat the cake and leave it whole. Either the bible follows reality, or it doesn't.

 

How do you know that miricles are not real. There is no evidence that they don't exist(unless you count the fact that perhaps you haven't experienced a miricle as evidence).

 

And the bible says lots of things that are easily shown to be false, like Noah's Ark and genesis but there are many more and all the murder, genocide, rape, child molestation, seriously evil if god is real.

Where do you did that God was the Evil One in that? Not one of them was God doing, helping, or promoting evil.

Edited February 27, 2012 by njaohnt

[D H]

How do you know that miricles are not real. There is no evidence that they don't exist(unless you count the fact that perhaps you haven't experienced a miricle as evidence).

It's miracle, not miricle. If you have a modern browser it will highlight your misspelled words such as by underlining them in red. Pay attention!

 

As far as how do we know that miracles aren't real? We don't. We also don't know if this is all a figment of my imagination (or if I am a figment of yours!). Religious miracles and solipsism are antithetical to science. This is a science discussion board.

[njaohnt]

1. It's miracle, not miricle. If you have a modern browser it will highlight your misspelled words such as by underlining them in red. Pay attention!

 

2. As far as how do we know that miracles aren't real? We don't. We also don't know if this is all a figment of my imagination (or if I am a figment of yours!). Religious miracles and solipsism are antithetical to science. This is a science discussion board.

 

1. Miricle is a less popular word for miracle. The browser found it as a word. It is not in many dictionaries that way, but it is still a word.

 

2. Have you had miracles happen in your life? I have.

[Cap'n Refsmmat]

1. Miricle is a less popular word for miracle. The browser found it as a word. It is not in many dictionaries that way, but it is still a word.

 

2. Have you had miracles happen in your life? I have.

That's beside the point. Saying "There is no evidence that they don't exist" is not evidence of their existence.

 

How do you accurately determine whether an event is miraculous, or merely unlikely? To prove it is miraculous you must demonstrate that no possible natural cause could exist.

[njaohnt]

 

 

That's beside the point. Saying "There is no evidence that they don't exist" is not evidence of their existence.

 

How do you accurately determine whether an event is miraculous, or merely unlikely? To prove it is miraculous you must demonstrate that no possible natural cause could exist.

 

Could someone's back heal after many days of pain, from a natural causes? I don't think so. Usually it gets better slowly, not suddenly. Does it ever happen overnight after many nights of pain.

[Moontanman]

Could someone's back heal after many days of pain, from a natural causes? I don't think so. Usually it gets better slowly, not suddenly. Does it ever happen overnight after many nights of pain.

 

 

Yes, that can happen, people with terminal cancer can get better too. Please tell us what you would consider a miracle, I have a feeling your bar is set rather low for miraculous events.

 

How do you know that miricles are not real. There is no evidence that they don't exist(unless you count the fact that perhaps you haven't experienced a miricle as evidence).

 

 

Where do you did that God was the Evil One in that? Not one of them was God doing, helping, or promoting evil.

 

 

Quite the contrary, God actually demanded these things, do you not read your bible? Again Noah's ark, all of Genesis the bible is cover to cover full of stuff demonstrably not true, or so anti social as to be evil incarnate. Satan would be hard pressed to beat God at the Evil game if the bible is to be believed.

 

We've been over this stuff many times njaohnt, I see no reason to continue to repeat the same rebuttals to your horse feathers over and over. Either provide some sort of evidence that supports your holy book or admit you don't care and are going to believe it anyway...

Edited February 28, 2012 by Moontanman

[Arete]

Could someone's back heal after many days of pain, from a natural causes? I don't think so. Usually it gets better slowly, not suddenly. Does it ever happen overnight after many nights of pain.

 

THis argument is eleganlty, extensively and rather convincingly torn to utter shreds by the good folks at "Why won't God heal Amputees"

 

http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/

 

"No matter how many people pray. No matter how sincere those people are. No matter how much they believe. No matter how devout and deserving the recipient. Nothing will happen. The legs will not regenerate. Prayer does not restore the severed limbs of amputees. You can electronically search through all the medical journals ever written -- there is no documented case of an amputated leg being restored spontaneously...What are we seeing here? It is not that God sometimes answers the prayers of amputees, and sometimes does not. Instead, in this situation there is a very clear line. God never answers the prayers of amputees. It would appear, to an unbiased observer, that God is singling out amputees and purposefully ignoring them.... If God is imaginary, then he does not answer any prayers. Therefore, the prayers of amputees would go unanswered too. The thing that is so appealing about this explanation is that there is no hand waving. There are no contradictions. It is completely fair. There is no paradox. This explanation makes sense in light of the evidence we see in our world. "

Edited February 28, 2012 by Arete

[Phi for All]

Could someone's back heal after many days of pain, from a natural causes? I don't think so. Usually it gets better slowly, not suddenly. Does it ever happen overnight after many nights of pain.

This is very common. Stress can constrict blood vessels, resulting in a reduced oxygen flow to the muscles, nerves and tendons and that causes acute pain. When the constriction stops, the pain goes away pretty quickly. It happens to me every once in a while.

 

There is absolutely no phenomena you could mention that can't be more easily explained by natural causes than by divine intervention.

 

And as Arete has so beautifully shown, even though the Bible NEVER mentions that God hates amputees, He has never answered any prayers to regrow a limb for one. That's a pretty big exception to the prayer guidelines, isn't it? Wouldn't you think something like that would be mentioned in the Bible, like most of His other rules and laws?

[1=1]

What about the dude in South America somewhere that heals people?

 

Another case of first class evidence.

[Tres Juicy]

Another case of first class evidence.

 

 

Is this a joke?

[D H]

What about the dude in South America somewhere that heals people?

Another case of first class evidence.

Is this a joke?

Of course it was a joke. Do people really need to use an emoticon every time they are being sarcastic? What dude in South America?

 

After poking around the internet for dudes from South America who do faith healing by sticking things up peoples' noses, I found the aforementioned dude. njaohnt was referring to João Teixeira, who calls himself João de Deus or "John of God". He claims to channel 30 some dead people, including King Solomon. Shirley McClain loves him. So does Oprah. So did ABC "News", which did a Primetime Live on him back in 2005. ABC even gave James Randi 19 seconds to say something about Teixeira on that show (not even as much time as the History Channel gives to skeptics to argue against the nuttery of Giorgio Tsoukalos).

 

James Randi does a nice job of ripping into this charlatan. See http://www.randi.org/jr/021805a.html.

[Phi for All]

After poking around the internet for dudes from South America who do faith healing by sticking things up peoples' noses, I found the aforementioned dude. njaohnt was referring to João Teixeira, who calls himself João de Deus or "John of God". He claims to channel 30 some dead people, including King Solomon. Shirley McClain loves him. So does Oprah. So did ABC "News", which did a Primetime Live on him back in 2005. ABC even gave James Randi 19 seconds to say something about Teixeira on that show (not even as much time as the History Channel gives to skeptics to argue against the nuttery of Giorgio Tsoukalos).

 

James Randi does a nice job of ripping into this charlatan. See http://www.randi.org/jr/021805a.html.

Great point Randi makes about the patients buying into the scam. I remember reading once that fraud is actually many times more prevalent in our society than we think because so many cases go unreported (it was an article about scamming the elderly, iirc). It's difficult for most people to admit to being that gullible, and the elderly can be especially reticent out of fear their families will think them incompetent to live on their own.

[njaohnt]

This is very common. Stress can constrict blood vessels, resulting in a reduced oxygen flow to the muscles, nerves and tendons and that causes acute pain. When the constriction stops, the pain goes away pretty quickly. It happens to me every once in a while.

 

There is absolutely no phenomena you could mention that can't be more easily explained by natural causes than by divine intervention.

 

And as Arete has so beautifully shown, even though the Bible NEVER mentions that God hates amputees, He has never answered any prayers to regrow a limb for one. That's a pretty big exception to the prayer guidelines, isn't it? Wouldn't you think something like that would be mentioned in the Bible, like most of His other rules and laws?

The Bible says that God will fulfil any prayer if:

- they follow Him

- it is in His will

- it will bring glory to Him

 

Perhaps the amputees are not following God, or maybe they are part of God's plan, that would ruined if they were not amputees.

Edited February 29, 2012 by njaohnt

[Arete]

maybe they are part of God's plan, that would ruined if they were not amputees.

 

http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/gods-plan.htm

 

Gotta pull out the why does god hate amputees again:

 

"If the concept of "God's plan" is true, you can first of all see that God wants us to be aborting children. Every single abortion is planned by God, so God must be doing it for a reason. Second, you can see that both the mother who requests the abortion and the doctor who performs it are blameless. Since it is God who planned the abortion of the child, the mother and doctor are simply puppets who are fulfilling God's plan. You can also see that all the Christians who are fighting against abortion are missing the point. They are actually fighting against God's plan, and their fight is completely futile. God is the all-powerful ruler of the universe, and his plan is for more than a million children a year to die in the United States through abortion. [ref] Each one of those abortions was meticulously planned by God, so fighting against abortion is a totally wasted effort."

[Schrödinger's hat]

They are actually fighting against God's plan, and their fight is completely futile. God is the all-powerful ruler of the universe, and his plan is for more than a million children a year to die in the United States through abortion. [ref] Each one of those abortions was meticulously planned by God, so fighting against abortion is a totally wasted effort."

 

But his plan must also be for those people to fight God's plan.

And for other people to fight those who fight God's plan.

and......

[galaxysponge]

Yeah, I agree with you. They big bang couldn't of been the origin of everything. What some scientists are saying now is that what most likely is out there are multiple universes in a sea of them- outside of ours. The 'Big Bang' was just the branes, or outer walls colliding making our universe. As this might be the case, still who could of made the origins of all these different universes. But I don't think we can denounce the big bang didn't happen yet, what if God used this? We don't know, but we just have to trust him.

As you may know, the origin of all the different molecules we see and use and made by stars. Nuclear fusion, combining parts of H2 atom to make different elements. But how these molecules combine to form life is something I just can't grasp, I also can't grasp how other people assume life just happened. Sometimes I wish science could prove God right but that's what keeps us bound.

 

 

Impossible. It is impossible that there even was a big bang. If there was a big bang, how did the complex life become? How did the molecules even stick together?

 

See

 

That is Case for a Creator, and all of those videos show how there could not be any big bang.

 

 

 

[njaohnt]

http://whywontgodhea...m/gods-plan.htm

 

Gotta pull out the why does god hate amputees again:

 

"If the concept of "God's plan" is true, you can first of all see that God wants us to be aborting children. Every single abortion is planned by God, so God must be doing it for a reason. Second, you can see that both the mother who requests the abortion and the doctor who performs it are blameless. Since it is God who planned the abortion of the child, the mother and doctor are simply puppets who are fulfilling God's plan. You can also see that all the Christians who are fighting against abortion are missing the point. They are actually fighting against God's plan, and their fight is completely futile. God is the all-powerful ruler of the universe, and his plan is for more than a million children a year to die in the United States through abortion. [ref] Each one of those abortions was meticulously planned by God, so fighting against abortion is a totally wasted effort."

 

Evil people chose for those abortions. No one wanted the amputees to get amputated (except, perhaps, the Devil). Comparing abortions with amputees is not right.

[Arete]

Evil people chose for those abortions. No one wanted the amputees to get amputated (except, perhaps, the Devil). Comparing abortions with amputees is not right.

 

Well, if people losing their limbs is part of God's plan as you suggested, God wanted them to get amputated.

 

And if everything that happens on earth is part of God's plan, he also wanted those abortions.

Edited March 2, 2012 by Arete

[zapatos]

Perhaps the amputees are not following God, or maybe they are part of God's plan, that would ruined if they were not amputees.

Any God who requires people to become amputees so that his plan works out is a total douchbag.

 

... No one wanted the amputees to get amputated (except, perhaps, the Devil)...

Sounds like there is not much difference between God and the devil.

[mooeypoo]

How do you know that miricles are not real. There is no evidence that they don't exist(unless you count the fact that perhaps you haven't experienced a miricle as evidence).

I don't, but since there's no proof for their existence, we can't say they are either.

Science goes by evidence. There's evidence for the big bang. Where's your evidence for the existence of any form of miracles?

 

You can't use miracle as evidence without having evidence for miracles.

 

 

[njaohnt]

I don't, but since there's no proof for their existence, we can't say they are either.

Science goes by evidence. There's evidence for the big bang. Where's your evidence for the existence of any form of miracles?

 

You can't use miracle as evidence without having evidence for miracles.

 

 

 

The only evidence of the Big Bang is that we are here. Same thing with God.

 

Well, if people losing their limbs is part of God's plan as you suggested, God wanted them to get amputated.

 

And if everything that happens on earth is part of God's plan, he also wanted those abortions.

 

Perhaps something way worse would if they didn't get amputated. You are saying this like amputees are common, and you at least ten everyday, which you don't.

[Phi for All]

The only evidence of the Big Bang is that we are here.

Seriously, you can't say things like that here. It's a lie. When you make definitive statements like this, you're showing us that you haven't read anything about Big Bang Theory. There IS evidence to support it. Please click this link right here and please, please, please read the material there.

 

 

Perhaps something way worse would if they didn't get amputated. You are saying this like amputees are common, and you at least ten everyday, which you don't.

From The Amputee Coalition: http://www.amputee-c.../nllic_faq.html

 

In 2007, there are approximately 1.7 million people with limb loss in the United States (excluding fingers and toes). There are more than 185,000 new amputations performed each year in this country.

Almost two million people in the US alone (can you imagine how many in other countries where war is more prevalent?) and God hasn't answered any of their prayers to give them back their limbs.