Anti big-bang case for a creator

[Arete]

Edit - Phi beat me to it with the US figures.

 

http://news.bbc.co.u...fic/3259891.stm

 

"Cambodia's estimated 40,000 chon pika - or amputees. With a population of around 11.5 million, Cambodia has one amputee for every 290 people - one of the highest ratios in the world."

Edited March 2, 2012 by Arete

[mooeypoo]

The only evidence of the Big Bang is that we are here. Same thing with God.

Now that's just lazy. That's not the only evidence, there are quite a HUGE amount of actual observational and empirical evidence to support the "big bang" theory. The fact you never bothered checking them out doesn't mean they don't exist.

 

You should go over this article:

http://www.talkorigi...my/bigbang.html

 

 

~mooey

[njaohnt]

Almost two million people in the US alone (can you imagine how many in other countries where war is more prevalent?) and God hasn't answered any of their prayers to give them back their limbs.

 

Have they prayed? Are they righteous? I don't think so. Perhaps some, but God's plan might be to not to grow them back.

 

Now that's just lazy. That's not the only evidence, there are quite a HUGE amount of actual observational and empirical evidence to support the "big bang" theory. The fact you never bothered checking them out doesn't mean they don't exist.

 

You should go over this article:

http://www.talkorigi...my/bigbang.html

 

 

~mooey

 

Evidence that it came. Evidence of how it came. I could make lots of assumptions of how a lot of thing were made. How they came to be.

 

Let's take paintings. The earth is very hard to look at the subtlest details of how it could have came, just like the painting that I am looking at now. It is very easy to study it, to see how the artist made it, but there are so many ways that it could have been made, so guess would be wrong. Same thing with the universe.

[zapatos]

Have they prayed? Are they righteous? I don't think so. Perhaps some, but God's plan might be to not to grow them back.

 

 

 

Evidence that it came. Evidence of how it came. I could make lots of assumptions of how a lot of thing were made. How they came to be.

 

Let's take paintings. The earth is very hard to look at the subtlest details of how it could have came, just like the painting that I am looking at now. It is very easy to study it, to see how the artist made it, but there are so many ways that it could have been made, so guess would be wrong. Same thing with the universe.

Come on, you're not even trying. Take the blinders off and have a look around. It's amazing out there. And if you are right about God it would be a shame if you wasted the view while you are here on earth.

[D H]

Evidence that it came.

Hubble expansion, observed.

Cosmic microwave background radiation, observed.

Stellar fusion, not only observed, but also reproduced.

Nucleosynthesis, not only observed, but also reproduced.

 

Did you read the link provided in posts #75 and #77? Read it.

 

Evidence of how it came.

Now you are starting to play a god of the gaps game. That is a very dangerous game to play because scientists have this uncanny ability to fill in those gaps.

 

You do realize that the big bang theory was originally proposed by Georges Lemaître, a Belgian priest? He had no problems with the idea, nor did the Catholic Church. The only religions that have a problem with it are a bit goofy.

[Phi for All]

Have they prayed? Are they righteous? I don't think so. Perhaps some, but God's plan might be to not to grow them back.

We're talking about two MILLION people here, njaohnt.

 

What are the odds that none of them prayed to have their arms and legs back? What are the odds that none of them are righteous? Many of these are war heroes who fought for your freedom. Are you going to tell me that none of them are worthy in God's eyes? I can understand about God's plan and all, but do you really think that God's plan can cure cancer and diseases and all the miraculous things you claim, but the plan doesn't include anything truly miraculous like regrowing a hand?

 

Evidence that it came. Evidence of how it came. I could make lots of assumptions of how a lot of thing were made. How they came to be.

 

Let's take paintings. The earth is very hard to look at the subtlest details of how it could have came, just like the painting that I am looking at now. It is very easy to study it, to see how the artist made it, but there are so many ways that it could have been made, so guess would be wrong. Same thing with the universe.

From your answers, I can tell you didn't read any of the evidence we linked to. Why are we bothering to talk if we can bring evidence you don't read and then claim it's all assumptions? Can you please point specifically to anything in the talkorigins links that you feel is an assumption and not supportive of the Big Bang Theory?

[mooeypoo]

 

Evidence that it came. Evidence of how it came. I could make lots of assumptions of how a lot of thing were made. How they came to be.

 

Let's take paintings. The earth is very hard to look at the subtlest details of how it could have came, just like the painting that I am looking at now. It is very easy to study it, to see how the artist made it, but there are so many ways that it could have been made, so guess would be wrong. Same thing with the universe.

 

Look.

 

You can't come into a science forum and then just refuse to debate. You clearly didn't read a word off that page if this is your answer to it.

What are you afraid of, exactly?

 

 

 

We can't keep discussing when you refuse to cooperate in a discussion, njaoht. That won't be a discussion, it would be you preaching, and that's not just impolite, it's also against the rules.

 

This is your time to decide: Are you here to debate fairly (which means you read our evidence just like we read yours) or are you here to proselytize and preach?

 

You're not going to convince anyone by doing the latter.

 

~mooey

[njaohnt]

Come on, you're not even trying. Take the blinders off and have a look around. It's amazing out there. And if you are right about God it would be a shame if you wasted the view while you are here on earth.

What make you think I'm wasting my view?

 

Look.

 

You can't come into a science forum and then just refuse to debate. You clearly didn't read a word off that page if this is your answer to it.

What are you afraid of, exactly?

 

 

 

We can't keep discussing when you refuse to cooperate in a discussion, njaoht. That won't be a discussion, it would be you preaching, and that's not just impolite, it's also against the rules.

 

This is your time to decide: Are you here to debate fairly (which means you read our evidence just like we read yours) or are you here to proselytize and preach?

 

You're not going to convince anyone by doing the latter.

 

~mooey

I have read those pages (not in full, but the parts that I thought were interesting, tell me a part that you think I should read[if a place exsists]).

 

Am I here for preaching? Well that depends on your definition of "preaching". What do you mean?

[mooeypoo]

Am I here for preaching? Well that depends on your definition of "preaching". What do you mean?

 

I mean you're not here to listen, consider, and debate, you're here to spew YOUR opinion regardless of whatever other people put up in front of you.

 

And I don't believe you read that page, dear sir. From what you're saying, it's quite clear. How about you try?

 

~mooey

[zapatos]

What make you think I'm wasting my view?

You make me think that. You believe God did all of this, but you aren't even trying to find out just what it is He did. The universe is a masterpiece and you act like there is something wrong with looking at and admiring all the details. God gave you your senses, your brain, and this absolutely phenomenal place to live in and explore. And your response seems to be to cover your eyes and ears, refusing to experience it. Understanding the universe is not a betrayal of God.

 

That is what makes me think you are wasting your view. Life is a wonder. Don't squander it.

[afungusamongus]

All the evidence we have says that the universe had a beginning." - Alexander Vilenken

 

Does the OP think he is a better physicist than Mr. Vilenken?

 

I can quote you the article on Stephen Hawking website where he explains why the universe has a beginning.

 

Does the OP think he is a better physicist than Mr. Hawking.

 

Or is he just going to ignore the physical evidence just so he does not have to admit that their is a solid case for the existence of God.

 

If scientist in general are like the person who started this thread then I weep for the future of humanity.

[Tres Juicy]

If scientist in general are like the person who started this thread then I weep for the future of humanity.

 

Not everybody here is a scientist

 

Don't weep just yet

[iNow]

All the evidence we have says that the universe had a beginning." - Alexander Vilenken

 

Does the OP think he is a better physicist than Mr. Vilenken?

 

I can quote you the article on Stephen Hawking website where he explains why the universe has a beginning.

 

Does the OP think he is a better physicist than Mr. Hawking.

 

Or is he just going to ignore the physical evidence just so he does not have to admit that their is a solid case for the existence of God.

 

If scientist in general are like the person who started this thread then I weep for the future of humanity.

Sorry, but no. What the evidence suggests is that tbere was a rapid expansion from a very dense point, but not that there was a beginning. You either misunderstand or are deliberately misrepresenting what the evidence actually shows.

[Phi for All]

The fact that science COULD speculate on an actual beginning of the universe but officially DOESN'T should tell you a lot about the integrity of the scientific method, and about the precision of Big Bang Theory. We can measure what happened after the expansion began but only up to a fraction of a fraction of a second after. The initial expansion, right as it first starts, involves too much energy. We can only be sure of what happened once the energy drops to levels we've been able to measure with particle physics experiments, at around 10⁻¹¹ seconds after the event started.

 

Science can say, "Right now, we don't know what actually happened before the universe was 10⁻¹¹ seconds old". It doesn't need to fill that gap with a creator. We're learning more about those kinds of energy levels all the time. Someday the gap will be gone, filled with knowledge and not superstition.

[njaohnt]

You make me think that. You believe God did all of this, but you aren't even trying to find out just what it is He did. The universe is a masterpiece and you act like there is something wrong with looking at and admiring all the details. God gave you your senses, your brain, and this absolutely phenomenal place to live in and explore. And your response seems to be to cover your eyes and ears, refusing to experience it. Understanding the universe is not a betrayal of God.

 

That is what makes me think you are wasting your view. Life is a wonder. Don't squander it.

 

I am not covering my eyes.

 

The fact that science COULD speculate on an actual beginning of the universe but officially DOESN'T should tell you a lot about the integrity of the scientific method, and about the precision of Big Bang Theory. We can measure what happened after the expansion began but only up to a fraction of a fraction of a second after. The initial expansion, right as it first starts, involves too much energy. We can only be sure of what happened once the energy drops to levels we've been able to measure with particle physics experiments, at around 10⁻¹¹ seconds after the event started.

 

Science can say, "Right now, we don't know what actually happened before the universe was 10⁻¹¹ seconds old". It doesn't need to fill that gap with a creator. We're learning more about those kinds of energy levels all the time. Someday the gap will be gone, filled with knowledge and not superstition.

Tell me when that day comes.

 

I mean you're not here to listen, consider, and debate, you're here to spew YOUR opinion regardless of whatever other people put up in front of you.

 

And I don't believe you read that page, dear sir. From what you're saying, it's quite clear. How about you try?

 

~mooey

Say what you want, it doesn't make it true. Tell me what I probably would have said if I did read them.

[Moontanman]

I am not covering my eyes.

 

None are so blind as they who will not see... or something like that....

 

Tell me when that day comes.

 

Why? So you can shove god into a another even smaller more insignificant gap in knowledge?

[njaohnt]

All the evidence we have says that the universe had a beginning." - Alexander Vilenken

 

Does the OP think he is a better physicist than Mr. Vilenken?

 

I can quote you the article on Stephen Hawking website where he explains why the universe has a beginning.

 

Does the OP think he is a better physicist than Mr. Hawking.

 

Or is he just going to ignore the physical evidence just so he does not have to admit that their is a solid case for the existence of God.

 

If scientist in general are like the person who started this thread then I weep for the future of humanity.

I didn't actulally make this thread…

 

We're talking about two MILLION people here, njaohnt.

 

What are the odds that none of them prayed to have their arms and legs back? What are the odds that none of them are righteous? Many of these are war heroes who fought for your freedom. Are you going to tell me that none of them are worthy in God's eyes? I can understand about God's plan and all, but do you really think that God's plan can cure cancer and diseases and all the miraculous things you claim, but the plan doesn't include anything truly…

Maybe God protected the righteous.

[Phi for All]

I am not covering my eyes.

 

 

Tell me when that day comes.

 

 

Say what you want, it doesn't make it true. Tell me what I probably would have said if I did read them.

You know what, it's obvious to me that you stopped even trying to make a decent argument. This is one of the most pathetic posts I've seen in all my years here. Denial, flippancy and sloppy, intellectually dishonest answers. You should cogitate, not just mouth what your pastor told you.

[Tres Juicy]

None are so blind as they who will not see... or something like that....

 

"There's none so blind as them that won't listen"

[Schrödinger's hat]

"There's none so blind as them that won't listen"

 

If that's the case...how deaf are those who will not smell?

[Moontanman]

This thread has become a bad joke told over and over by someone who demands we laugh because he says we have to....

[Cap'n Refsmmat]

Round and round and round and round and round and round in circles we go.