Aardvark Posted November 18, 2004 Posted November 18, 2004 What's important is that Bush has made decisions for your entire country - and even the world - based on his system of beliefs' date=' rather than what is actually in the best interests of your society.[/quote'] Presumably every politician acts on the basis of his beliefs. No doubt he believes that his beliefs are in the best interests of society, otherwise he wouldn't believe them.
chadn Posted November 18, 2004 Posted November 18, 2004 Call me a wacky liberal pinko, but I don't think being a religious figurehead is any part of the president's mandate. His responsibilities are to the welfare, advancement and defence of your society, and he should not be sneaking in personal mandates under the guise of religious conviction (or, more worringly, because of religious conviction). This man is at the helm of one of the most powerful, resource-hungry and destructive nations on the planet. What does he do with this power? Try to amend the basis of your society so that people whose life style he doesn't agree with can't play with his (and in many cases, their) religion's toys. I'm sure you can see why this sort of thing from the politically elected (read: not divinely chosen) leader of a supernation makes people bitter. I understand that they are bitter, but I am tired of their BS arguments that anyone who supports Bush is an idiot. You want to talk about bitter, this attitude is making me bitter. I have been putting up with this attitude since the end of the election. I encounter it all the time, and now I am bitter. Many of the people that these jerks are calling idiots are my family and friends and they are far from ignorant. You think I am going to sit back at let some bitter cry-baby call my loved ones ignorant idiots?
chadn Posted November 18, 2004 Posted November 18, 2004 Call me a wacky liberal pinko, but I don't think being a religious figurehead is any part of the president's mandate. His responsibilities are to the welfare, advancement and defence of your society, and he should not be sneaking in personal mandates under the guise of religious conviction (or, more worringly, because of religious conviction). This man is at the helm of one of the most powerful, resource-hungry and destructive nations on the planet. What does he do with this power? Try to amend the basis of your society so that people whose life style he doesn't agree with can't play with his (and in many cases, their) religion's toys. I'm sure you can see why this sort of thing from the politically elected (read: not divinely chosen) leader of a supernation makes people bitter. I understand that they are bitter, but I am tired of their BS arguments that anyone who supports Bush is an idiot. You want to talk about bitter, this attitude is making me bitter. I have been putting up with this attitude since the end of the election. I encounter it all the time, and now I am bitter. Many of the people that these jerks are calling idiots are my family and friends and they are far from ignorant. You think I am going to sit back at let some bitter cry-baby call my loved ones ignorant idiots?
chadn Posted November 18, 2004 Posted November 18, 2004 Presumably every politician acts on the basis of his beliefs. No doubt he believes that his beliefs are in the best interests of society, otherwise he wouldn't believe them. Excellent point, all decisions are colored by a person's beliefs, some just do a better job of hiding them.
chadn Posted November 18, 2004 Posted November 18, 2004 Presumably every politician acts on the basis of his beliefs. No doubt he believes that his beliefs are in the best interests of society, otherwise he wouldn't believe them. Excellent point, all decisions are colored by a person's beliefs, some just do a better job of hiding them.
Sayonara Posted November 18, 2004 Posted November 18, 2004 Presumably every politician acts on the basis of his beliefs. No doubt he believes that his beliefs are in the best interests of society, otherwise he wouldn't believe them. Remind me why the office of president, unlike other political offices, has a veritable army of advisors attached to it.
Sayonara Posted November 18, 2004 Posted November 18, 2004 Presumably every politician acts on the basis of his beliefs. No doubt he believes that his beliefs are in the best interests of society, otherwise he wouldn't believe them. Remind me why the office of president, unlike other political offices, has a veritable army of advisors attached to it.
Sayonara Posted November 18, 2004 Posted November 18, 2004 I understand that they are bitter' date=' but I am tired of their BS arguments that anyone who supports Bush is an idiot. You want to talk about bitter, this attitude is making me bitter. I have been putting up with this attitude since the end of the election. I encounter it all the time, and now I am bitter. Many of the people that these jerks are calling idiots are my family and friends and they are far from ignorant. You think I am going to sit back at let some bitter cry-baby call my loved ones ignorant idiots?[/quote'] I empathise fully, but realise that you are responding in kind. Which obviously won't go anywhere. There's a lot of tarring with the same brush going on here.
Sayonara Posted November 18, 2004 Posted November 18, 2004 I understand that they are bitter' date=' but I am tired of their BS arguments that anyone who supports Bush is an idiot. You want to talk about bitter, this attitude is making me bitter. I have been putting up with this attitude since the end of the election. I encounter it all the time, and now I am bitter. Many of the people that these jerks are calling idiots are my family and friends and they are far from ignorant. You think I am going to sit back at let some bitter cry-baby call my loved ones ignorant idiots?[/quote'] I empathise fully, but realise that you are responding in kind. Which obviously won't go anywhere. There's a lot of tarring with the same brush going on here.
Aardvark Posted November 18, 2004 Posted November 18, 2004 Remind me why the office of president, unlike other political offices, has a veritable army of advisors attached to it. To provide justifications to do what he was going to do anyway.
Aardvark Posted November 18, 2004 Posted November 18, 2004 Remind me why the office of president, unlike other political offices, has a veritable army of advisors attached to it. To provide justifications to do what he was going to do anyway.
chadn Posted November 18, 2004 Posted November 18, 2004 Remind me why the office of president, unlike other political offices, has a veritable army of advisors attached to it. Their advice is also colored by their personal beliefs.
chadn Posted November 18, 2004 Posted November 18, 2004 Remind me why the office of president, unlike other political offices, has a veritable army of advisors attached to it. Their advice is also colored by their personal beliefs.
Sayonara Posted November 18, 2004 Posted November 18, 2004 To provide justifications to do what he was going to do anyway. I'd appreciate the glibness if (a) we weren't debating at 01.42 and (b) in this particular case, it wasn't so ironically true. Their advice is also colored by their personal beliefs. Irrelevant. Their function is to PREVENT the acquired personal beliefs of one person driving decisions that affect millions by providing rational advice, the requisite experience, and factual information. How their own beliefs are shaded makes no difference, unless they all happen to strongly coincide and drive their advice.
Sayonara Posted November 18, 2004 Posted November 18, 2004 To provide justifications to do what he was going to do anyway. I'd appreciate the glibness if (a) we weren't debating at 01.42 and (b) in this particular case, it wasn't so ironically true. Their advice is also colored by their personal beliefs. Irrelevant. Their function is to PREVENT the acquired personal beliefs of one person driving decisions that affect millions by providing rational advice, the requisite experience, and factual information. How their own beliefs are shaded makes no difference, unless they all happen to strongly coincide and drive their advice.
Aardvark Posted November 18, 2004 Posted November 18, 2004 I'd appreciate the glibness if (a) we weren't debating at 01.42 and (b) in this particular case' date=' it wasn't so ironically true.[/quote'] Fair enough, but as i was pointing out, every politician acts on the basis of his beliefs, it would be impossible otherwise. Yes, he needs advisers to provide ideas and justifications, but ulitimately he acts on the basis of his beliefs. What matters is that he was open and honest about those beliefs at the election. To criticise G W Bush for acting in accordance with his beliefs seems unfair. It would be fair to criticise those beliefs or even to argue that people with reliogous beliefs shouldn't hold power, but not to criticise him for openly acting in accordance with his clearly stated beliefs.
Aardvark Posted November 18, 2004 Posted November 18, 2004 I'd appreciate the glibness if (a) we weren't debating at 01.42 and (b) in this particular case' date=' it wasn't so ironically true.[/quote'] Fair enough, but as i was pointing out, every politician acts on the basis of his beliefs, it would be impossible otherwise. Yes, he needs advisers to provide ideas and justifications, but ulitimately he acts on the basis of his beliefs. What matters is that he was open and honest about those beliefs at the election. To criticise G W Bush for acting in accordance with his beliefs seems unfair. It would be fair to criticise those beliefs or even to argue that people with reliogous beliefs shouldn't hold power, but not to criticise him for openly acting in accordance with his clearly stated beliefs.
Sayonara Posted November 18, 2004 Posted November 18, 2004 I am not just criticising him for "acting in accordance with his beliefs" in an airy-fairy, hand waving kind of way. I am criticising him for taking religiously founded beliefs that he has subscribed to and using those as a basis for national policy, on behalf of millions of people (the majority of whom will most likely not share those beliefs, seeing as he is a BAC). If he believed for instance that X needed to be corrected because while at school he was taught that Y was caused by X, and Y is bad as has been demonstrated and confirmed by the work of many people over the years, he'd have a solid basis for allowing such a belief to influence his decision. But to drive such important decisions based on something someone told you came with the package seems like a very dangerous thing to do.
Sayonara Posted November 18, 2004 Posted November 18, 2004 I am not just criticising him for "acting in accordance with his beliefs" in an airy-fairy, hand waving kind of way. I am criticising him for taking religiously founded beliefs that he has subscribed to and using those as a basis for national policy, on behalf of millions of people (the majority of whom will most likely not share those beliefs, seeing as he is a BAC). If he believed for instance that X needed to be corrected because while at school he was taught that Y was caused by X, and Y is bad as has been demonstrated and confirmed by the work of many people over the years, he'd have a solid basis for allowing such a belief to influence his decision. But to drive such important decisions based on something someone told you came with the package seems like a very dangerous thing to do.
john5746 Posted November 18, 2004 Posted November 18, 2004 I understand that they are bitter' date=' but I am tired of their BS arguments that anyone who supports Bush is an idiot. You want to talk about bitter, this attitude is making me bitter. I have been putting up with this attitude since the end of the election. I encounter it all the time, and now I am bitter. Many of the people that these jerks are calling idiots are my family and friends and they are far from ignorant. You think I am going to sit back at let some bitter cry-baby call my loved ones ignorant idiots?[/quote'] Wow, Imagine if Bush had lost. You'd probably go shoot someone. Bush won, got more seats in the senate, got rid of his big rival, is replacing all the moderates around him and I am still hearing complaints. Can you imagine if Reagan had all that? He actually had to deal with people who didn't agree with him - and got things done. Same with Clinton.
john5746 Posted November 18, 2004 Posted November 18, 2004 I understand that they are bitter' date=' but I am tired of their BS arguments that anyone who supports Bush is an idiot. You want to talk about bitter, this attitude is making me bitter. I have been putting up with this attitude since the end of the election. I encounter it all the time, and now I am bitter. Many of the people that these jerks are calling idiots are my family and friends and they are far from ignorant. You think I am going to sit back at let some bitter cry-baby call my loved ones ignorant idiots?[/quote'] Wow, Imagine if Bush had lost. You'd probably go shoot someone. Bush won, got more seats in the senate, got rid of his big rival, is replacing all the moderates around him and I am still hearing complaints. Can you imagine if Reagan had all that? He actually had to deal with people who didn't agree with him - and got things done. Same with Clinton.
chadn Posted November 18, 2004 Posted November 18, 2004 Wow, Imagine if Bush had lost. You'd probably go shoot someone. This may shock the hell out of you, but I didnt vote for Bush. As I have already stated: Dont mistake me as a bush supporter, I may come across as one in my rants against the democrats, but I am no republican. Bush won, got more seats in the senate, got rid of his big rival, is replacing all the moderates around him and I am still hearing complaints. Can you imagine if Reagan had all that? He actually had to deal with people who didn't agree with him - and got things done. Same with Clinton. So what? My party has no representation beyond the state level, I could really care less, Im simply sick of bitter dems calling people names out of anger.
chadn Posted November 18, 2004 Posted November 18, 2004 Wow, Imagine if Bush had lost. You'd probably go shoot someone. This may shock the hell out of you, but I didnt vote for Bush. As I have already stated: Dont mistake me as a bush supporter, I may come across as one in my rants against the democrats, but I am no republican. Bush won, got more seats in the senate, got rid of his big rival, is replacing all the moderates around him and I am still hearing complaints. Can you imagine if Reagan had all that? He actually had to deal with people who didn't agree with him - and got things done. Same with Clinton. So what? My party has no representation beyond the state level, I could really care less, Im simply sick of bitter dems calling people names out of anger.
john5746 Posted November 18, 2004 Posted November 18, 2004 I understand where you are coming from I guess. I am surrounded by Bush lovers. I am sick of them complaining about liberals. I am not really all that liberal, but I am so irritated, it makes me want to be. People who voted for Kerry are called 'godless', homo-lovers, unpatriotic etc. It goes both ways.
john5746 Posted November 18, 2004 Posted November 18, 2004 I understand where you are coming from I guess. I am surrounded by Bush lovers. I am sick of them complaining about liberals. I am not really all that liberal, but I am so irritated, it makes me want to be. People who voted for Kerry are called 'godless', homo-lovers, unpatriotic etc. It goes both ways.
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