Disproving the existence of God

[Tres Juicy]

Like I said, it's a noble aim - "does my faith stand up to scrutiny?"

 

But the answer will always be yes, because what you believe in is intangible, all-powerful/all-knowing and omnipotent/omnipresent.

 

Add to that the fact that the belief system itself has become sacred, it's frowned upon to tell someone that their belief is ridiculous even if it is.

 

Give those properties to Moontanman's dragon and it becomes just as plausible as your god

[Moontanman]

Excuse me!!! I very much agree with you and INow that the only way to progress humanity is to have real quality meme pool in our brains and to achieve that it is very much important to have that scientific attitude and it should be exercized often so that we won't fall into pseudoscience and start dedicating our lives and start believing in anything we want. The scientific community has a huge responsibility on its shoulders to suppress pseudoscience, fraudulents and make sure that only testified real data is passed on and if its real, the meme will be automatically passed on we don't have to make it look real, it will survive on its own.

 

Then why are you pushing a supernatural agenda?

 

I started this thread to disprove the existence of God with the same scientific rigour and attitude as we apply for other arguments and Moontanman requested for theistic models and I gave one but because of how those models work such a model can be scientifically or universally testified only when a theist brings such phenomena to the scientific method of enquiry and I have requested a few days to demonstrate such a phenomena and I very well know it is on my head to show that such an idea is real. I also explained why such a phenomena is so rare and why it is difficult to gain such knowledge.

 

Typical supernatural horse feathers, it can't be replicated every time or very often which then turns into well maybe next time or the next, it's silly and it has no informational content except that the supernatural is well imagination and nothing more...

 

This is the reason I posted this in the speculation forums and I am working on to come up with an argument and I will post it soon so that we can speculate it on common grounds. I don't know what made INow to say this and I quote.

 

When you come up with that then I'll consider it but your claims so far have no merit what so ever.

 

 

Just because you don't have the right insight to understand the idea doesn't in any way make the idea less credible and deserve dismissal.

 

If something is real then it is real, you are doing the old demon in a box argument and requiring we accept it because you say so, that is just not good enough...

 

Yes the Aryas were Gnostic theists so the argument here is not that whether we require a God in our model or not, the argument here is that we can not model or simulate this world without bringing God into the picture. Its not whether science requires God or not.

 

Horse feathers, there is no reason, no evidence that god is necessarily at all, none except your need to believe....

 

So when the situation is like this and since science has not yet found a fundamental model explaining all things from the origin to till now why is an argument that a God exists and is currently interfering with human affairs is not a feasible and a possible argument.

 

Because there is no evidence for it what so ever...

 

Most people here hold a default position and doesn't really allow a model of the world involving God, this is the attitude of a gnostic atheist, if you really want to be that guy why do you allow the argument of God to creep in, I mean if this is the scientific attitude then why don't science be so gnostic and say that the probability and the possibility of the existence of God is absolutely zero. It has not shown that and yet some are unwilling to accept or speculate on an argument which has a huge collection of data called as scriptures or the word of God which also gives a method to know god.

 

Are you really going with the god of the gaps? We used to think lightning was vengeance of a god or gods, now we not only know it is not but we can keep it from striking, every time science advances theists push god into a smaller and smaller box....

 

Many people here talk of unicorns, puff the magic dragons and other funny things or whatever and they might even have a scripture of their own and they are asking to worship them. These are all may be great ideas but what they don't understand is that if someone worships them and gains some knowledge and demonstrates it in public then that idea will survive and it will be found out to be very real. This may sound silly but it works doesn't it.

 

Scripture? Really? you are going to go there? name anything about scripture that has reveled something we couldn't have already known, scripture is horse feathers with a side of chicken lips...

 

Talking of intellectual honesty. I don't deny evolution by Natural selection, I don't deny Quantum physics or relativity but I have serious doubts about our full understanding as to how evolution happens you may say random mutations followed by cumulative selection but it doesn't satisfy me.

 

As far as I know it is not meant to satisfy anyone, it's what the evidence points to that counts, not what is satisfying...

 

Einstein was never satisfied with the copenhagen interpretation of QM, it doesn't satisfy Roger Penrose, it doesn't satisfy me too. You may be good at math and know something about statistical probability and it might have led to some amazing technological advancements but it has not yet answered those philosophical questions and this is the reason why guys like me pop in holding the argument of a God. I am a theist and I am trying to be a genuine gnostic theist so I am speculating on whether my argument makes me a gnostic theist or not. I want to put my belief systems to test and see whether it bears any truth in reality so what's wrong with that, how I am termed to be intellectually dishonest? If I rationalize irrespective of what the outcome of the test is and still hold on to my beliefs then it would be a dishonesty on my part isn't it?

 

So now an appeal to authority? So because these people weren't, according to you at least, satisfied with the evidence we have god must be in those gaps in our knowledge?

 

I think people should read this. When Epilepsy goes by a other name

 

 

I think it used to be called demonic possession as well.... bind them with chains and drop them in the water if they float they are demons if not they die and go to heaven, MBE for sure...

[immortal]

Then why are you pushing a supernatural agenda?

 

Scripture? Really? you are going to go there? name anything about scripture that has reveled something we couldn't have already known, scripture is horse feathers with a side of chicken lips...

 

So now an appeal to authority? So because these people weren't, according to you at least, satisfied with the evidence we have god must be in those gaps in our knowledge?

 

Tres juicy said,

 

Why not? This seems like your opinion rather than an objective argument

 

Moontanman said,

Horse feathers, there is no reason, no evidence that god is necessarily at all, none except your need to believe....

 

 

Really? There is no reason? If we have to simulate or model this universe then its inevitable that we have to model consciousness, If we have to model consciousness we need non-computable physics because consciousness is non-computable. Science will never be able to find that non-computable physics without bringing God into the picture because I think God holds the key to non-computable physics and therefore our hope of a single fundamental model might never be realized. So what's wrong if I go and explore a new world looking for non-computable physics. There is certainly a need for that, I see it and I think that it might come from God and this is the reason why I want to dedicate my life and explore new worlds and I want to speculate on them. I definitely doesn't want to fall to pseudoscience neither I want to promote or push any false belief systems here. I hope I have answered your questions.

 

I have to quote Roger Penrose on this. Roger Penrose on Non-Computability.

 

There's a connection between this area of physics and consciousness, in my opinion, but it's a bit roundabout; the arguments are negative. I argue that we shall need to find some noncomputational physical process if we're ever to explain the effects of consciousness. But I don't see it in any existing theory. It seems to me that the only place where noncomputability can possibly enter is in what is called "quantum measurement." But we need a new theory of quantum measurement. It must be a noncomputable new theory. There is scope for this, if the new theory involves changes in the very structure of quantum theory, of the kind that could arise when it's appropriately united with general relativity. But this is something for the distant future.

 

The way you treat this nowadays, in standard quantum theory, is to introduce randomness. Since randomness comes in, quantum theory is called a probabilistic theory. But randomness only comes in when you go from the quantum to the classical level. If you stay down at the quantum level, there's no randomness. It's only when you magnify something up, and you do what people call "make a measurement." This consists of taking a small-scale quantum effect and magnifying it out to a level where you can see it. It's only in that process of magnification that probabilities come in. What I'm claiming is that whatever it is that's really happening in that process of magnification is different from our present understanding of physics, and it is not just random. It is noncomputational; it's something essentially different.

 

This idea grew from the time when I was a graduate student, and I felt that there must be something noncomputational going on in our thought processes. I've always had a scientific attitude, so I believed that you have to understand our thinking processes in terms of science in some way. It doesn't have to be a science that we understand now. There doesn't seem to be any place for conscious phenomena in the science that we understand today. On the other hand, people nowadays often seem to believe that if you can't put something on a computer, it's not science.

 

I suppose this is because so much of science is done that way these days; you simulate physical activity computationally. People don't realize that something can be noncomputational and yet perfectly scientific, perfectly mathematically describable. The fact that I'm coming into all this from a mathematical background makes it easier for me to appreciate that there are things that aren't computational but are perfectly good mathematics.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[qsa]

Really? There is no reason? If we have to simulate or model this universe then its inevitable that we have to model consciousness, If we have to model consciousness we need non-computable physics because consciousness is non-computable. Science will never be able to find that non-computable physics without bringing God into the picture because I think God holds the key to non-computable physics and therefore our hope of a single fundamental model might never be realized. So what's wrong if I go and explore a new world looking for non-computable physics. There is certainly a need for that, I see it and I think that it might come from God and this is the reason why I want to dedicate my life and explore new worlds and I want to speculate on them. I definitely doesn't want to fall to pseudoscience neither I want to promote or push any false belief systems here. I hope I have answered your questions.

 

I have to quote Roger Penrose on this. Roger Penrose on Non-Computability.

 

 

but he also says this

 

 

A lot of what the brain does you could do on a computer. I'm not saying that all the brain's action is completely different from what you do on a computer. I am claiming that the actions of consciousness are something different. I'm not saying that consciousness is beyond physics, either — although I'm saying that it's beyond the physics we know now.

 

 

you are interpreting what he says to your liking. Also, that is just a one man's opinion. And now you are trying to find a loophole to wiggle your way out of creation conundrum. I suggest just have faith and let it go, that is the whole idea (the right one) of god to have peace.

Edited January 17, 2012 by qsa

[immortal]

but he also says this

 

 

A lot of what the brain does you could do on a computer. I'm not saying that all the brain's action is completely different from what you do on a computer. I am claiming that the actions of consciousness are something different. I'm not saying that consciousness is beyond physics, either — although I'm saying that it's beyond the physics we know now.

 

 

you are interpreting what he says to your liking. Also, that is just a one man's opinion. And now you are trying to find a loophole to wiggle your way out of creation conundrum.

 

No I think I am on the right track, apart from his opinion about quantum theory and about brain function his argument that there is a non-computable element in our thought process is a strong mathematical argument which gives some insights into how consciousness operates. His opinion is not based on some mumbo-jumbo. The mechanisms that are working in between the synaptic junctions of the neurons can not account for the non-computability of thought.

 

I find parallel insights with the Aryas view of the world. The non-computability of thought can be easily exercised if we view that Brain and Mind are two different things and if we drop our reductionist bottom up approach. According to them God is not someone sitting above the sky on a golden chair wearing a crown. God is someone who is residing in you guiding your intellect, your mind and your thought process and he is not quite far from you nor he is unknowable.

 

Kant might very well be wrong when he said that the only way possible to acquire knowledge is through the sense organs. A new observation with out using the sense organs is very much possible. The most often criticism for religious beliefs and faith is that there is no method to test that faith and there is nothing wrong in trying to explore and find new ways and new methods which work for all instances to test those belief systems.

 

I suggest just have faith and let it go, that is the whole idea (the right one) of god to have peace.

 

Yes many people have suggested this kind of advice to me but I wasn't exceedingly naive to perform that method for one year and to dedicate my life. However the experience that I had was a negative one and had negative effects because I didn't performed it correctly.

 

 

[Moontanman]

Really? There is no reason? If we have to simulate or model this universe then its inevitable that we have to model consciousness, If we have to model consciousness we need non-computable physics because consciousness is non-computable. Science will never be able to find that non-computable physics without bringing God into the picture because I think God holds the key to non-computable physics and therefore our hope of a single fundamental model might never be realized. So what's wrong if I go and explore a new world looking for non-computable physics. There is certainly a need for that, I see it and I think that it might come from God and this is the reason why I want to dedicate my life and explore new worlds and I want to speculate on them. I definitely doesn't want to fall to pseudoscience neither I want to promote or push any false belief systems here. I hope I have answered your questions.

 

I have to quote Roger Penrose on this. Roger Penrose on Non-Computability.

 

 

I have to ask, why do you think that link supports your assertion of god? It says no such thing. There is no reason to assert god into any of this. You remind me of a UFO buff who says he has absolute proof that UFOs are alien space craft, then says it will be sometime in the future before he can show proof but then goes on to say that things like the number of planets in the galaxy means his idea has to be true but he never comes up with anything but mind games to prove his point.

 

Could there be a god or gods or even something we might identify as a god or gods, sure, the moon might have pools of chocolate pudding hidden under ground but I see no evidence for it at this time and speculating on it is not only meaningless it is nothing but speculation, it certainly doesn't increase the likely hood of those pools of chocolate pudding by saying we cannot at this time prove they don't exist...

Edited January 17, 2012 by Moontanman

[Tres Juicy]

the moon might have pools of chocolate pudding hidden under ground...

 

Surely Neil Armstrong would have brought some back for some after dinner analysis...

[immortal]

Moontanman said,

 

can it be confirmed in any other way?

 

Since non-believers think that those God's light rays may very well be a hallucination and does not believe in that method and since they can not determine whether those light rays are real or a hallucination it is termed as dishonesty by atheists. So lets keep that argument aside for a moment.

 

Moontanman had often requested to show evidence demonstrating that such theistic models has any credibility on physical reality and I had said that when theists bring such phenomena to the scientific method of enquiry these models can be tested and analyzed on common grounds.

 

This phenomena doesn't show any real knowledge gained by a theist in a positive way but those vital forces which gives extrasensory perception and super intelligence showing positive results on theists may also have a negative effect for a theist when those forces are stimulated in a wrong way and this negative effect can be seen in physical reality and affects the physical realm.

 

I got this insight when phanthom mentioned about Moses and about Epileptic seizure and I went and did a background on those seizures and I found this.

 

I performed that method for a year and suddenly one day as soon as I finished my last step I fell foward unconsciously in the morning and I fell backwards in the evening on the same day after the same last step.

 

The experience which I had in the morning is called as a Atonic seizure. What are seizures

 

Atonic seizures

In an atonic seizure (or 'drop attack') the person's muscles suddenly relax, and they become floppy. If they are standing they often fall, usually forwards, and may injure the front of their head or face. With both tonic and atonic seizures people usually recover quickly, apart from possible injuries.

 

The experience which I had in the evening is called as a Tonic seizure.

 

Tonic seizures

In a tonic seizure the person's muscles suddenly become stiff. If they are standing they often fall, usually backwards, and may injure the back of their head. Tonic seizures tend to be very brief and happen without warning.

 

I had asked neurologists, priests, top religious men and others but no one gave me a satisfactory explanation as to why I fell unconscious and my neurologist is diagnosing me for depression and he doesn't seem to be interested in this and in the end I had to figure this out myself and found out that what I experienced a Tonic and an Atonic seizure.

 

As epileptic society of UK indicates that everyone has a susceptible threshold for seizures and anyone can experience such a seizure when that threshold decreases for various other reasons.

 

The pathophysiology of such seizures are poorly understood and it has been said that lack of sleep, stress and other genetic factors causes such abnormal excessive release of neurotransmitters causing an excitatory response but how satisfactory is such an explanation considering the intellectual achievement of mankind.

 

Seizure prediction models have failed to predict such seizures and so far have been inconsistent and diagnostic methods like CT Scaning and MRI imaging or angiography which are used to determine the underlying cause show nothing unusual on those patients. Lack of oxygen to brain on some strange situations are believed to trigger such a seizure but what is the mechanism that underlies such abnormality.

 

So lets get into the molecular neurobiology of it and see what is happening. Since this is the work of other biologists. I'll quote it.

 

 

Neurons are made up of long extensions called axons and dendrites. Dendrites carry signals towards the cell body where as axons carry signals away from the cell body to other neurons or to the muscles.

 

Neurons have a resting action potential i.e the concentration of Na+ ions is more outside the cell compared to the concentration inside and the concentration of K+ ions is more inside the cell compared to the concentration outside of the membrane.

 

When a neuron existing in this resting state is stimulated by a mechanical force a depolarisation wave travels through the axon once the force applied overcomes a threshold value. The depolarisation event is an influx of Na+ ions to the inside of the cell as the Na+ gate channels open. This is the rising phase of the wave.

 

After this the Na+ channel gate is closed and K+ ion channel is opened and there is an outflux of K+ ions from the inside of the cell to the outside membrane. This event is the repolarisation event. It forms the descending phase of the wave. The Na+ and K+ ATPase pump uses active transport to restore that resting phase and the neuron can not sense or respond during this short period.

 

This action potential is coupled to Ca2+ ion channels and controls its permeability. Ca2+ ions are used for actin myosin bead movements and also for the phophorylation of the Synapsin -I protein which forms a cage like structure around the synaptic vesicles inhibiting neurotransmitter release and preventing the fusion of synpatic vesicles to the presynaptic membrane which would aid the release of neurotransmitters. The synaptic vesicles attach to the projections at the presynaptic region in a hexagonal pattern.

 

When a neurotransmitter is released the amount and type of ion channel that the neurotransmitter opens determines whether the response has an excitatory or inhibitory effect on the other neuron. This signal is coupled to the bead movements in actin and myosin of the muscle fibres and helps us to make those complex body maneuvers.

Different protien kinases phosphorylate secondary messengers which ensure that those membrane proteins are expressed by the DNA present in the perikaryon.

 

In traditional yoga they speak of channels called as Nadis Nadi (yoga). Here Nadi means flow or a river. The thing that flows is a force called prana, a vital force responsible for the normal activity of a living being. This is not a physical force and it exists in a different realm, existing in the subtle body.

 

The only flow which we can comprehend flowing in a Neuron is the anterograde and the retrograde axonic flow.

 

The anterograde and retrograde axonic flow is responsible for the fast or slow transfer of macro-molecules, membrane proteins and other substrates to the regions of nerve endings since Ribosomes do not exist at those nerve endings to synthesize required proteins as membrane proteins have half lives of 12 hrs or 15 days and start decaying so to ensure that membrane proteins, synaptic vesicles and macromolecules are organized in the presynaptic region of a neuron this anterograde and retrograde axonic flow is very necessary.

 

The mechanisms of such an axonic flow are poorly understood and it is hypothesized that mechanisms used for cell motility and amoeboid motion are in work here too.

 

This means that Microtubulins, actin, myosin and other contractile neurofilaments having a lattice structure which assembles and disassembles with in seconds is responsible for the movement of organelles, macromolecules and other membrane proteins in the axonic flow.

 

References

Cell and Molecular Biology

- E.D.P De Robertis and E.M.F De Robertis, Jr.

 

 

The question is it is easy to believe and understand how a actin myosin fibre would contract and relax in a co-ordinated fashion by recieving the processed signal which comes the synaptic junctions. But from where such a processed signal or information is coming to control and self organize those microtubulins and other actin and myosin fibres which frequently assemble and disassemble going through contraction and relaxation cycles which should help cells to locate food, help in cell motility and explore their environment and also move molecules and membrane proteins in a particular direction. The question is how is such a processing is done to control and co-ordinate such complex movements.

 

The work of Stuart Hameroff on microtubules shows its connection with consciousness and its activity. They try to reduce consciousness to the quantum processing occuring in the microtubulins of the neurons which I think is a big mistake since consciousness is some thing which might be an activity working outside of the Brain.

 

I think the ancient traditional yogic methods had control over the anterograde and the retrograde axonic flow indirectly and there is a lot of information supporting such an insight. Dr. Wallace on the physiology of Transcendental Meditation

 

So I think that the flow of the prana or the vital force is tightly coupled with the anterograde and the retrograde flow and traditional yoga science by developing methods to control the flow of prana there by controlled the anterograde and retrograde flow and in this way both body and mind benefited from such techniques. In this way yogic methods provide health benefits and prevent aging of the body and there is lot of evidence supporting the idea that yoga improves metabolic rate and aids in the proper efficient functioning of the body.

 

If it has been shown to work and affect the human body means that it is an indirect evidence that the supernatural force prana exists and is in work in every living being. We didn't directly knew that protons were in turn made up of quarks but we had indirect evidence

that they exist because when we beamed electron beams through protons they lost their energy in quantified radiations a process called as bremsstrahlung.

 

Many here think that an undefined outside force can not be proved or shown to exist but such a thing can be indirectly shown to exist when predictions made for such a force has an affect on physical reality too.

 

According to Kundalini yoga there are energy points called as chakras which contain super intelligent capabilities. The kundalini yoga predicts such a seizure will happen in susceptible young people when they have blockages for the flow of prana and when kundalini energy awakens and raises upwards.

 

So I believe a genuine pranic healer would diagnose such seizures and give treatment well rather than a neurologist.

 

So I think I experienced such a seizure because there was an imbalance in the flow of prana in the subtle body and this imbalance caused an imbalance in the anterograde and the retrograde axonic flow and in turn this would have induced changes in the presynaptic membrane aiding the release of excessive synchronous excitatory release of neurotransmitters resulting in the loss of consciousness and sudden jerking and contraction and relaxation of body muscles.

 

I find this explanation more rational because the seizure happened on both occasions as soon as I finshed the 12th step of the technique, it was not random so I believe there is a pattern to it and there is a science behind it, a science which might model consciousness. This is a mere speculation.

 

The explanation that a seizure starts from the brain and occurs without warning whose pathophysiological origin of the cause is not yet found adds support to my belief. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK2510/

Edited January 17, 2012 by immortal

[Moontanman]

Moontanman said,

 

 

Since non-believers think that those God's light rays may very well be a hallucination and does not believe in that method and since they can not determine whether those light rays are real or a hallucination it is termed as dishonesty by atheists. So lets keep that argument aside for a moment.

 

Moontanman had often requested to show evidence demonstrating that such theistic models has any credibility on physical reality and I had said that when theists bring such phenomena to the scientific method of enquiry these models can be tested and analyzed on common grounds.

 

This phenomena doesn't show any real knowledge gained by a theist in a positive way but those vital forces which gives extrasensory perception and super intelligence showing positive results on theists may also have a negative effect for a theist when those forces are stimulated in a wrong way and this negative effect can be seen in physical reality and affects the physical realm.

 

I got this insight when phanthom mentioned about Moses and about Epileptic seizure and I went and did a background on those seizures and I found this.

 

I performed that method for a year and suddenly one day as soon as I finished my last step I fell foward unconsciously in the morning and I fell backwards in the evening on the same day after the same last step.

 

The experience which I had in the morning is called as a Atonic seizure. What are seizures

 

 

 

The experience which I had in the evening is called as a Tonic seizure.

 

 

 

I had asked neurologists, priests, top religious men and others but no one gave me a satisfactory explanation as to why I fell unconscious and my neurologist is diagnosing me for depression and he doesn't seem to be interested in this and in the end I had to figure this out myself and found out that what I experienced a Tonic and an Atonic seizure.

 

As epileptic society of UK indicates that everyone has a susceptible threshold for seizures and anyone can experience such a seizure when that threshold decreases for various other reasons.

 

The pathophysiology of such seizures are poorly understood and it has been said that lack of sleep, stress and other genetic factors causes such abnormal excessive release of neurotransmitters causing an excitatory response but how satisfactory is such an explanation considering the intellectual achievement of mankind.

 

Seizure prediction models have failed to predict such seizures and so far have been inconsistent and diagnostic methods like CT Scaning and MRI imaging or angiography which are used to determine the underlying cause show nothing unusual on those patients.

Lack of oxygen to brain on some strange situations are believed to trigger such a seizure but what is the mechanism that underlies such abnormality.

 

So lets get into the molecular neurobiology of it and see what is happening. Since this is the work of other biologists. I'll quote it.

 

 

 

In traditional yoga they speak of channels called as Nadis Nadi (yoga). Here Nadi means flow or a river. The thing that flows is a force called prana, a vital force responsible for the normal activity of a living being. This is not a physical force and it exists in a different realm, existing in the subtle body.

 

 

 

The question is it is easy to believe and understand how a actin myosin fibre would contract and relax in a co-ordinated fashion by recieving the processed signal which comes the synaptic junctions. But from where such a processed signal or information is coming to control and self organize those microtubulins and other actin and myosin fibres which frequently assemble and disassemble going through contraction and relaxation cycles which should help cells to locate food, help in cell motility and explore their environment and also move molecules and membrane proteins in a particular direction. The question is how is such a processing is done to control and co-ordinate such complex movements.

 

The work of Stuart Hameroff on microtubules shows its connection with consciousness and its activity. They try to reduce consciousness to the quantum processing occuring in the microtubulins of the neurons which I think is a big mistake since consciousness is some thing which might be an activity working outside of the Brain.

 

I think the ancient traditional yogic methods had control over the anterograde and the retrograde axonic flow indirectly and there is a lot of information supporting such an insight. Dr. Wallace on the physiology of Transcendental Meditation

 

So I think that the flow of the prana or the vital force is tightly coupled with the anterograde and the retrograde flow and traditional yoga science by developing methods to control the flow of prana there by controlled the anterograde and retrograde flow and in this way both body and mind benefited from such techniques. In this way yogic methods provide health benefits and prevent aging of the body and there is lot of evidence supporting the idea that yoga improves metabolic rate and aids in the proper efficient functioning of the body.

 

If it has been shown to work and affect the human body means that it is an indirect evidence that the supernatural force prana exists and is in work in every living being. We didn't directly knew that protons were in turn made up of quarks but we had indirect evidence

that they exist because when we beamed electron beams through protons they lost their energy in quantified radiations a process called as bremsstrahlung.

 

Many here think that an undefined outside force can not be proved or shown to exist but such a thing can be indirectly shown to exist when predictions made for such a force has an affect on physical reality too.

 

According to Kundalini yoga there are energy points called as chakras which contain super intelligent capabilities. The kundalini yoga predicts such a seizure will happen in susceptible young people when they have blockages for the flow of prana and when kundalini energy awakens and raises upwards.

 

So I believe a genuine pranic healer would diagnose such seizures and give treatment well rather than a neurologist.

 

So I think I experienced such a seizure because there was an imbalance in the flow of prana in the subtle body and this imbalance caused an imbalance in the anterograde and the retrograde axonic flow and in turn this would have induced changes in the presynaptic membrane aiding the release of excessive synchronous excitatory release of neurotransmitters resulting in the loss of consciousness and sudden jerking and contraction and relaxation of body muscles.

 

I find this explanation more rational because the seizure happened on both occasions as soon as I finshed the 12th step of the technique, it was not random so I believe there is a pattern to it and there is a science behind it, a science which might model consciousness. This is a mere speculation.

 

The explanation that a seizure starts from the brain and occurs without warning whose pathophysiological origin of the cause is not yet found adds support to my belief.

 

 

You use unsupported notions to make assertions about things that might be real then you go on as though your totally unsupported notions make the things you are asserting real?

 

Evidence talks, horse feathers walk dude.... so far you are drowning in horse feathers... I can make a better case for UFO's being alien space craft...

[Tres Juicy]

Yoga, prana and Nadi are not science and as such cannot be used to argue scientifically

[iNow]

I'm still awaiting a response to the very first reply presented in this thread in post #2:

 

Define god.

[Moontanman]

I'm still awaiting a response to the very first reply presented in this thread in post #2:

 

 

Define god? That which can not be felt, seen, touched, tasted, sensed, or detected in any way but still has control over everything....

[doG]

Define god? That which can not be felt, seen, touched, tasted, sensed, or detected in any way but still has control over everything....

That could be one definition. Care to enumerate all the others?

[Tres Juicy]

From wikipeda:

 

"God is the English name given to a singular being in theistic and deistic religions (and other belief systems) who is either the sole deity in monotheism, or a single deity in polytheism.^[1]

 

God is most often conceived of as the supernatural creator and overseer of the universe. Theologians have ascribed a variety of attributes to the many different conceptions of God. The most common among these include omniscience (infinite knowledge), omnipotence (unlimited power), omnipresence (present everywhere), omnibenevolence (perfect goodness), divine simplicity, and eternal and necessary existence.

 

God has also been conceived as being incorporeal (immaterial), a personal being, the source of all moral obligation, and the "greatest conceivable existent".^[1] These attributes were all supported to varying degrees by the early Jewish, Christian and Muslim theologian philosophers, including Maimonides,^[2] Augustine of Hippo,^[2] and Al-Ghazali,^[3] respectively. Many notable medieval philosophers and modern philosophers have developed arguments for ^[3] the existence of God and in modernity against."

 

 

 

 

This is the definition I think of.

 

 

 

 

Interestingly, God.com has no answers.....

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[doG]

This is the definition I think of...

That's where the problem starts. How many 'I's are there in this world and what is the definition each of them thinks of?

[Tres Juicy]

That's where the problem starts. How many 'I's are there in this world and what is the definition each of them thinks of?

 

The one I posted is the widely accepted version, that was the point of the post

[immortal]

I have to ask, why do you think that link supports your assertion of god? It says no such thing. There is no reason to assert god into any of this. You remind me of a UFO buff who says he has absolute proof that UFOs are alien space craft, then says it will be sometime in the future before he can show proof but then goes on to say that things like the number of planets in the galaxy means his idea has to be true but he never comes up with anything but mind games to prove his point.

 

Could there be a god or gods or even something we might identify as a god or gods, sure, the moon might have pools of chocolate pudding hidden under ground but I see no evidence for it at this time and speculating on it is not only meaningless it is nothing but speculation, it certainly doesn't increase the likely hood of those pools of chocolate pudding by saying we cannot at this time prove they don't exist...

 

 

This is the foundation principle upon which all Aryan beliefs stands. Gayatri Mantra

 

In IAST:

 

Om bhur bhuvah suvahtat savitur vareṇyaṃbhargo devasya dhīmahidhiyo yó naḥ pracodayāt

 

A literal translation of the Gayatri verse proper can be given as:

 

"May we attain that excellent glory of Savitar the god:

So may he stimulate our prayers."

 

—The Hymns of the Rigveda (1896), Ralph T. H. Griffith[12]

 

 

A free translation by Swami Vivekananda:

 

"We meditate on the glory of that Being who has produced this universe; may He enlighten our minds."[15]

 

Two interpretations by S. Radhakrishnan:

 

1."We meditate on the effulgent glory of the divine Light; may he inspire our understanding."[16]

2."We meditate on the adorable glory of the radiant sun; may he inspire our intelligence."[17]

 

The Arya Samaj interpretation:

 

"O God ! Giver of life, Remover of all pain and sorrows, Bestower of happiness, the Creator of the Universe, Thou art most luminous, adorable and destroyer of sins. We meditate upon thee. May thou inspire, enlighten and guide our intellect in the right direction."[18]

 

The Brahmo Samaj interpretation:

"We meditate on the worshipable power and glory of Him who has created the earth, the nether world and the heavens (i.e. the universe), and who directs our understanding."[19]

 

The Robert Fox interpretation:

 

"O Effulgent Light of creation! Let the Sun of Truth illuminate my divinity. And meditation allow my thoughts to be inspired by Thee."

 

Interpretation by William Quan Judge in his commentary on the Gayatri Mantra:

 

"Unveil, O Thou who givest sustenance to the Universe, from whom all proceed, to whom all must return, that face of the True Sun now hidden by a vase of golden light, that we may see the truth and do our whole duty on our journey to thy sacred seat."[20]

 

a paraphrase by Sir William Jones:

 

"Let us adore the supremacy of that divine sun, the god-head who illuminates all, who recreates all, from whom all proceed, to whom all must return, whom we invoke to direct our understandings aright in our progress toward his holy seat."[21]

 

Common man's prayer:

"Whoever produced me and the one recites this mantra, let Him save both of us from sinning against each other."

 

 

 

If Consciousness is non-computable the likely hood that a mind and an intellect exists seperate from the brain is more and if a mind and an intellect exists then the likely hood of a god guiding that intellect increases. This is the single most reason why I believed in it. This belief is what pushed me to dedicate my life and perform that method for one year. That's how that link supports my concept of God. He is not a sky god sitting under a golden chair wearing a golden crown, he is someone who is guiding your intellect and your intuition or your thought process.

 

This is the reason why I assert that if strong AI can come up with a self aware machine which thinks on its own then my belief system will be disproved.

 

I find this view of Roger Penrose more rational than saying that ours is the 6515246851468765th earth and we came into existence by pure chance.

 

 

 

 

Aryans view the mind as a tightly held rope with the five senses attached to one end and the intelligence attached at the other end. They don't see intelligence as something associated with the brain instead they see it as physical entities existing in their own realm like platonic values. Note that there is nothing associated with the brain or any other signals, it doesn't come into the picture at all. God is someone who resides behind that intelligence and he is guiding our intellect.

Edited January 18, 2012 by immortal

[Moontanman]

This is the foundation principle upon which all Aryan beliefs stands. Gayatri Mantra

 

I'm sorry but woo whooo?

 

If Consciousness is non-computable the likely hood that a mind and an intellect exists sepearte from the brain in more and if a mind and an intellect exists then the likely hood of a god guiding that intellect increases.

 

Really? Why?

 

This is the single most reason why I believed in it. This belief is what pushed me to dedicate my life and perform that method for one year. That's how that link supports my concept of God. He is not a sky god sitting under a golden chair wearing a golden crown, he is someone who is guiding your intellect and your intuition or your thought process.

 

He is a delusion is far more likely...

 

This is the reason why I assert that if strong AI can come up with a self aware machine which thinks on its own then my belief system will be disproved.

 

I would say no, not necessarily, but the opposite dose nothing to support your idea either.

 

I find this view of Roger Penrose more rational than saying that ours is the 6515246851468765th earth and we came into existence by pure chance.

 

Appeal to authority and a strawman?

 

 

They view the mind as a tightly held rope with the five senses attached to one end and the intelligence attached at the other end. They don't see intelligence as something associated with the brain instead they see it as physical entities existing in their own realm like platonic values. Note that there is nothing associated with the brain or any other signals, it doesn't come into the picture at all. God is someone who resides behind that intelligence and he is guiding our intellect.

 

Sayssss you?

 

 

immortal, I can honestly say i am glad for you if you found what you were looking for but thinking that concentrated physical and metal exercises show you god is just not what is going on here. All sorts of willfully created delusional or if you must illusional states can be induced by such effort, some people are naturally more easily affected than others. over time a person can, if they really try really hard, convince themselves of many things, I've seen some stuff in chruches that makes you terrified that something is happening but once you realize these people have been whipping themselves up into a hysterical frenzy for years over this stuff, yet nothing ever come of it but senseless babble and drool. In your case it was evidently something else but the delusions don't have to be the wild frenzy of some fundamentalist church, perfectly opposite reactions can just as profound and meaningless as well. Until you come up with some knowledge you can show is real your argument has no more merit than any other concept of god or religion.

[immortal]

Yoga, prana and Nadi are not science and as such cannot be used to argue scientifically

 

 

I never said it was science, its definitely not science because those things belong to the supernatural realm. There are only two ways to prove it one way is to go and interact with the supernatural realm and see it for yourself and the other way is to see the effects of the supernatural on the natural realm.

 

If those things aren't real then we need to give a natural cause and a natural explanation for why in subjects who perform yoga the metabolic rate increases, oxygen consumption and heart rate decreases and provides other health benefits. If it doesn't provide any health benefits then why so many people in this world perform yoga and rely on it. How do you explain it.

Edited January 18, 2012 by immortal

[Moontanman]

I never said it was science, its definitely not science because those things belong to the supernatural realm. There are only two ways to prove it one way is to go and interact with the supernatural realm and see it for yourself and the other way is to see the effects of the supernatural on the natural realm.

 

If those things aren't real then we need to give a natural cause and a natural explanation for why in subjects who perform yoga the metabolic rate increases, oxygen consumption and heart rate decreases and provides other health benefits. If it doesn't provide any health benefits then why so many people in this world perform yoga and rely on it. How do you explain it.

 

 

I'm guessing the answer is that exercise is good for you....

[immortal]

I'm sorry but woo whooo?

 

All who have extensively studied the aryan school of philosophy will agree on this if not then he has not understood their philosophy at all.

 

Really? Why?

 

It is because human beings can solve problems for which no algorithm exists what so ever, we are more than just machines, we can do things which machines will never be able to do and I don't like the idea that we do trial and error guesses to find solutions to those problems for which no algorithm exists, I think we are able to access hidden truths which exists already in a different realm and that's how we get intuition and mathematical insight.

 

He is a delusion is far more likely...

 

We'll see.

 

I would say no, not necessarily, but the opposite dose nothing to support your idea either.

 

Yes true the opposite of it doesn't mean he exists.

 

Appeal to authority and a strawman?

 

I apologize, it was a opinion, I know it doesn't add any support to my case.

 

Sayssss you?

 

Says the mystics who have observed it and their literature is available.

 

immortal, I can honestly say i am glad for you if you found what you were looking for but thinking that concentrated physical and metal exercises show you god is just not what is going on here. All sorts of willfully created delusional or if you must illusional states can be induced by such effort, some people are naturally more easily affected than others. over time a person can, if they really try really hard, convince themselves of many things, I've seen some stuff in chruches that makes you terrified that something is happening but once you realize these people have been whipping themselves up into a hysterical frenzy for years over this stuff, yet nothing ever come of it but senseless babble and drool. In your case it was evidently something else but the delusions don't have to be the wild frenzy of some fundamentalist church, perfectly opposite reactions can just as profound and meaningless as

well. Until you come up with some knowledge you can show is real your argument has no more merit than any other concept of god or religion.

 

Moontanman, as you know the most often criticism for religion is that it doesn't have a method to test and look for real truths. All I was trying to do was to look for an universal method to prove religious beliefs for all instances. As ydops mentioned if anyone ever has to take a religion seriously then it has to be a new science just like how natural sciences is a perfection of philosophy.

 

I have to admit that I don't have a strong case to make here until I come up with some real knowledge, I agree, I don't want to be a troll. I shared this because further research is needed and I can not do it all alone and I am already experiencing complex focal seizures and as qsa suggested it seems better to let it go and perhaps someone who is interested in it might go on and do research on it.

 

 

 

[Tres Juicy]

Moontanman, as you know the most often criticism for religion is that it doesn't have a method to test and look for real truths. All I was trying to do was to look for an universal method to prove religious beliefs for all instances. As ydops mentioned if anyone ever has to take a religion seriously then it has to be a new science just like how natural sciences is a perfection of philosophy.

 

 

I've probably said it 5 times in this and other threads: You cannot prove or disprove god

 

Religion is set up in such a way as to make it impossible.

[Iggy]

I've probably said it 5 times in this and other threads: You cannot prove or disprove god

 

Religion is set up in such a way as to make it impossible.

But if God were real and manifest then he could be proved, don't you think? I mean, if the story of Elijah's altar in 1 Kings 18 were true and reproducible then God could be, as the story suggests he was, proved.

 

With disproving God, I agree.

[Moontanman]

But if God were real and manifest then he could be proved, don't you think? I mean, if the story of Elijah's altar in 1 Kings 18 were true and reproducible then God could be, as the story suggests he was, proved.

 

With disproving God, I agree.

 

 

If frogs had wings dude, if is a mighty big word, if only....

[Iggy]

If frogs had wings dude, if is a mighty big word, if only....

If there is a hell, and if you find yourself there... Don't make the mistake of getting mad at someone and yelling, "look, why don't you just piss off and go straight to..." It's terribly embarrassing.

 

 

edit: I heard that once and thought it was funny. your post reminded me of it. Of course, I agree... "if god exists..." is the biggest 'what if' that people have ever collectively assumed, and it amazes me how many people are happy filling in "if God exists then _______". Like "if God exists then I can't wear a condom", or "if God exists then women have to wear burqas".

 

It seems like people should, on the average, be quite a bit smarter than that.

Edited January 21, 2012 by Iggy