Disproving the existence of God

[Appolinaria]

1326506730[/url]' post='651014']

It's a bit sad that I have to recycle this point so many times, but here it is yet again.

 

I DON'T have to respect everyones opinion. I don't respect people who have the opinion that having sex with animals is okay. I don't respect people who have the opinion that all women want to be raped. I don't respect people who have the opinion that people with darker skin are inferior, and I don't respect people who have the opinion that putting cats into microwaves is a fun way to spend a Saturday.

 

I don't have to respect your beliefs. If you believed that murdering infants would end global warming, must I respect that? If you believed that raping 12 year old boys would end poverty, must I respect that? If you believed that burning puppies alive would result in world peace, must I respect that?

 

No. We shouldn't respect other peoples beliefs, especially when they're ridiculous (like belief in god, or those just mentioned above).

 

What I do respect is your RIGHT to believe whatever you want. That is fine. That is your freedom. That is your choice. Your beliefs belong to you, and I respect that, but I don't have to respect the beliefs themselves. Do you agree with this, or do you think I am mistaken? Should I respect the beliefs of a person who thinks that pouring acid on a young girls face is the correct path to purity and piety? I suspect you understand what I'm getting at here, and I hope you realize that the same approach applies to people's beliefs in deities.

 

The beliefs themselves are often quite silly and deserving of no respect whatsoever. I will defend to my death your freedom to believe whatever you want, but I don't have to respect the beliefs themselves... and let's state the obvious here... I DON'T respect beliefs about a magic sky dictator who says we're born evil and must worship him like a bully would... beliefs which are held purely based on fantasy and no evidence whatsoever.

 

No, when people hold that opinion, I don't respect that opinion, nor do I respect the other opinions I listed above. I guess that's where we differ.

 

Sure... By all means, let's be open minded, but not so open minded that our brains fall out and we stop using them.

 

 

This was an excellent post. I'm sorry nobody seems to have taken notice.

Just because I believe in a creator doesn't mean that I strictly follow the bible. I don't at all. I was raised by an agnostic Russian mother and never even heard the word god from her mouth once. Just because someone is an atheist doesn't mean I automatically associate their beliefs with those of, for example, the numerous corrupt dictators that were also atheists.

Please, no one wants to put kittens in a microwave. Im tired of everyone using the ridiculous-example-scapegoat to make someone's argument look stupid. THAT is a copout.

Perhaps some people use religion to handle the hardships they face, to give them solace when facing the unanswerable... Who cares? People take everything too far... Just because there are crazy christians doesnt mean you should give anyone who believes in a higher power disrespect. It's not right to dismiss their argument, publicly call them childish, intellectually dishonest, irrational, say you expect more from them, etc.

[Tres Juicy]

"Science can't show you unicorns because science never looked for one."

 

You should be able to figure out what is a unicorn from the following description of a unicorn's horn:

 

"The Unicorns horn is sometimes eight foot and more in length, others of a smaller size; they are very sharp pointed, running taper all along, and twisted of the colour of Ivory, and very white within, they are not of a four leg'd Creature, like to a horse, but come from a Fish, and therefore a Sea-Unicorn; they are brought from the Straits Davids, near the North Passage." - Berlu, John Jacob, The treasury of drugs unlock'd, or, A full and true description of all sorts of drugs and chymical preparations sold by druggists ...., 1690.

 

Do you still think you need LSD?

 

"Google "god spot" research is being done to "show" you god"

 

Did Moses have one of these God Helmets or did his wife explain to him the meaning of G Spot?

 

I don't follow this at all....

 

It seems to be aimed at me but you've misquoted me and this post makes no sense

[iNow]

I'm sorry. I don't understand this post at all.

I'll summarize it. Any evidence that a dude named jesus existed is somewhat weak, and generally relies on the accounts of people who were not even there... 2nd and 3rd hand reports. However, with that said, even if this guy truly walked around about 2,000 years ago and we stipulate that he existed, none of the evidence you could possibly cite (evidence which is spotty and often questionable, at best) allows one to make an honest logical conclusion that he was a deity.

 

---

Just because there are crazy christians doesnt mean you should give anyone who believes in a higher power disrespect. It's not right to dismiss their argument, publicly call them childish, intellectually dishonest, irrational, say you expect more from them, etc.

Bullshit. This gets to the heart of my position on intellectual honesty. You are asking for us to approach these discussions using a double standard. You are requesting undue deference. You are requesting that we give certain beliefs respect that they simply haven't earned.

 

Originally, you said that we must respect all beliefs and be tolerant of them. I gave some extreme examples to make my point more clear that...no, contrary to what you've said, not all beliefs should be respected. I showed with obvious examples that your request for us to respect and be tolerant of all beliefs is, in fact, horribly misguided, naive, and narrow, and in parallel my post implicitly showed that a respect and tolerance for all beliefs is NOT what you're actually requesting.

 

Let's face it... Your argument is NOT that we should be respectful and tolerant of all beliefs, otherwise you'd be asking for support and respect for all of the ridiculous beliefs I typed above (like the belief that people with darker skin are inferior, or the belief that burning puppies alive will result in world peace). My examples above prove quite obviously that not all beliefs are worthy of respect and tolerance, and I'm quite confident that you agree with me that none of those things (like a belief that raping 12 year old boys is the right way to end global poverty) are worthy of respect. So, what's the problem here? I'll tell you.

 

Respecting and tolerating beliefs of others is not what you're asking for. You don't want us to respect all beliefs... You want us to respect RELIGIOUS beliefs. You want us to carve out a special exception in our bullshit rejection process for RELIGIOUS beliefs, but not other beliefs. That's horribly inconsistent, and there is no good reason to do so. For this reason I reject completely your request for everyone to be respectful of beliefs and tolerant of them as it's unarguably a nonsensical request to make of a person who values rationality and reason. In most cases like this where folks like you make such requests for deference and tolerance and respect, it turns out that you're really asking for us to respect RELIGIOUS beliefs... not ALL beliefs. I imagine it's because you feel offended when your RELIGIOUS beliefs are openly criticized and challenged, but... let's be frank here... you don't have a right not to be offended. If your beliefs are worthy enough for an intellectually honest person to hold, then all you have to do is defend them with something more substantial than, "I just believe because I want to. It's called faith." If you want to toss around the term, making arguments like THAT is the true cop-out, sister.

Edited January 14, 2012 by iNow

[phantom]

I don't follow this at all....

 

It seems to be aimed at me but you've misquoted me and this post makes no sense

 

I don't think you were misquoted, only that the post was understood in a different context.

 

There is no such thing a a horse with a horn on its head. There never was. The unicorn is one of the billfishes and the bill/snout/beak was used as a medicine. In dayes of olde when knights were bold and even before that, medicine was a trade secret. In order to protect their secrets they made up stories so nobody would understand what they were doing and sent everybody on a wild unicorn chase. And such appears with religion.

 

Item2: Moses didn't have access to any high tech equipment to induce any effects of spirituality so his experiences were either due to hallucinations from some type of epilepsy which was part of his nature or induced. Many of these stories could have been made up to satisfy the curiosity of the general public. We have a concept called God which was an adequate explanation years ago. Science now has figued out that things didn't happen that way. The job is to find scientific explanations for the cause and effect relationships found in various religious beliefs and not go unicorn bashing. What people believe and what are the actual facts are two different things.

[Tres Juicy]

I don't think you were misquoted, only that the post was understood in a different context.

 

There is no such thing a a horse with a horn on its head (I know). There never was. The unicorn is one of the billfishes and the bill/snout/beak was used as a medicine. In dayes of olde when knights were bold and even before that, medicine was a trade secret. In order to protect their secrets they made up stories so nobody would understand what they were doing and sent everybody on a wild unicorn chase. And such appears with religion.

 

Item2: Moses didn't have access to any high tech equipment to induce any effects of spirituality so his experiences were either due to hallucinations from some type of epilepsy which was part of his nature or induced. Many of these stories could have been made up to satisfy the curiosity of the general public. We have a concept called God which was an adequate explanation years ago. Science now has figued out that things didn't happen that way. The job is to find scientific explanations for the cause and effect relationships found in various religious beliefs and not go unicorn bashing. What people believe and what are the actual facts are two different things.

 

Red is mine

 

Here's the original post

 

"Science can't show you unicorns because science never looked for one." (I didn't say this)

 

You should be able to figure out what is a unicorn from the following description of a unicorn's horn:

 

"The Unicorns horn is sometimes eight foot and more in length, others of a smaller size; they are very sharp pointed, running taper all along, and twisted of the colour of Ivory, and very white within, they are not of a four leg'd Creature, like to a horse, but come from a Fish, and therefore a Sea-Unicorn; they are brought from the Straits Davids, near the North Passage." - Berlu, John Jacob, The treasury of drugs unlock'd, or, A full and true description of all sorts of drugs and chymical preparations sold by druggists ...., 1690.

 

Do you still think you need LSD? (Yes, if I wanted to see a unicorn or god or anything else that doesn't exist!!)

 

"Google "god spot" research is being done to "show" you god"

 

Did Moses have one of these God Helmets (what god helmets? why would he need one?) or did his wife explain to him the meaning of G Spot? (G spot/god spot 2 different things)

Edited January 14, 2012 by Tres Juicy

[iNow]

Bullshit. This gets to the heart of my position on intellectual honesty. You are asking for us to approach these discussions using a double standard. You are requesting undue deference. You are requesting that we give certain beliefs respect that they simply haven't earned.

 

Originally, you said that we must respect all beliefs and be tolerant of them. I gave some extreme examples to make my point more clear that...no, contrary to what you've said, not all beliefs should be respected. I showed with obvious examples that your request for us to respect and be tolerant of all beliefs is, in fact, horribly misguided, naive, and narrow, and in parallel my post implicitly showed that a respect and tolerance for all beliefs is NOT what you're actually requesting.

 

Let's face it... Your argument is NOT that we should be respectful and tolerant of all beliefs, otherwise you'd be asking for support and respect for all of the ridiculous beliefs I typed above (like the belief that people with darker skin are inferior, or the belief that burning puppies alive will result in world peace). My examples above prove quite obviously that not all beliefs are worthy of respect and tolerance, and I'm quite confident that you agree with me that none of those things (like a belief that raping 12 year old boys is the right way to end global poverty) are worthy of respect. So, what's the problem here? I'll tell you.

 

Respecting and tolerating beliefs of others is not what you're asking for. You don't want us to respect all beliefs... You want us to respect RELIGIOUS beliefs. You want us to carve out a special exception in our bullshit rejection process for RELIGIOUS beliefs, but not other beliefs. That's horribly inconsistent, and there is no good reason to do so. For this reason I reject completely your request for everyone to be respectful of beliefs and tolerant of them as it's unarguably a nonsensical request to make of a person who values rationality and reason. In most cases like this where folks like you make such requests for deference and tolerance and respect, it turns out that you're really asking for us to respect RELIGIOUS beliefs... not ALL beliefs. I imagine it's because you feel offended when your RELIGIOUS beliefs are openly criticized and challenged, but... let's be frank here... you don't have a right not to be offended. If your beliefs are worthy enough for an intellectually honest person to hold, then all you have to do is defend them with something more substantial than, "I just believe because I want to. It's called faith." If you want to toss around the term, making arguments like THAT is the true cop-out, sister.

Just to add to this point... Respect is something that is earned, not entitled.

[Tres Juicy]

Just to add to this point... Respect is something that is earned, not entitled.

 

It really annoys me when people demand that I respect their veiws....

 

Earn respect or shut up

[Appolinaria]

1326550514[/url]' post='651087']

I'll summarize it. Any evidence that a dude named jesus existed is somewhat weak, and generally relies on the accounts of people who were not even there... 2nd and 3rd hand reports. However, with that said, even if this guy truly walked around about 2,000 years ago and we stipulate that he existed, none of the evidence you could possibly cite (evidence which is spotty and often questionable, at best) allows one to make an honest logical conclusion that he was a deity.

 

---

 

Bullshit. This gets to the heart of my position on intellectual honesty. You are asking for us to approach these discussions using a double standard. You are requesting undue deference. You are requesting that we give certain beliefs respect that they simply haven't earned.

 

Originally, you said that we must respect all beliefs and be tolerant of them. I gave some extreme examples to make my point more clear that...no, contrary to what you've said, not all beliefs should be respected. I showed with obvious examples that your request for us to respect and be tolerant of all beliefs is, in fact, horribly misguided, naive, and narrow, and in parallel my post implicitly showed that a respect and tolerance for all beliefs is NOT what you're actually requesting.

 

Let's face it... Your argument is NOT that we should be respectful and tolerant of all beliefs, otherwise you'd be asking for support and respect for all of the ridiculous beliefs I typed above (like the belief that people with darker skin are inferior, or the belief that burning puppies alive will result in world peace). My examples above prove quite obviously that not all beliefs are worthy of respect and tolerance, and I'm quite confident that you agree with me that none of those things (like a belief that raping 12 year old boys is the right way to end global poverty) are worthy of respect. So, what's the problem here? I'll tell you.

 

Respecting and tolerating beliefs of others is not what you're asking for. You don't want us to respect all beliefs... You want us to respect RELIGIOUS beliefs. You want us to carve out a special exception in our bullshit rejection process for RELIGIOUS beliefs, but not other beliefs. That's horribly inconsistent, and there is no good reason to do so. For this reason I reject completely your request for everyone to be respectful of beliefs and tolerant of them as it's unarguably a nonsensical request to make of a person who values rationality and reason. In most cases like this where folks like you make such requests for deference and tolerance and respect, it turns out that you're really asking for us to respect RELIGIOUS beliefs... not ALL beliefs. I imagine it's because you feel offended when your RELIGIOUS beliefs are openly criticized and challenged, but... let's be frank here... you don't have a right not to be offended. If your beliefs are worthy enough for an intellectually honest person to hold, then all you have to do is defend them with something more substantial than, "I just believe because I want to. It's called faith." If you want to toss around the term, making arguments like THAT is the true cop-out, sister.

 

How can you compare my belief in a creator to the belief that raping little boys will end global poverty? Uhhhhhhh, I'm lost. I don't see how my belief violates anyone's human rights. It doesn't put anyone in danger or support rape.

I'm not asking you to respect people being burned alive. I'm asking you to respect others who may believe in a creator, like myself.

[phantom]

Red is mine

 

Here's the original post

 

You are correct, I said that and it wasn't part of your statement. If you don’t look for something you can't find it.

 

Do you think Moses was on LSD?

 

How did Moses see a burning bush? A good possible explanation is that Moses was having a seizure. If Moses had a seizure while watching a fire, and then went out into the desert and had another seizure, it is very possible that the visual memory of the fire during the first seizure is overlaid upon the visual field during the second seizure, which then to the observer who is having such a seizure it would appear that a bush is on fire, which in effect ‘never happened’. Many possible combinations can occur. This would appear to be the explanation of why the ancient Egyptians had heads of animals on the bodies of people or faces of people on bodies of animals. Which is the meaning of “Erregungsfang”.

 

G-spot can have different meanings. If you look at a church spire with a “+” on top you can figure out why X marks the spot formed by G(od)

[Iggy]

Just because there are crazy christians doesnt mean you should give anyone who believes in a higher power disrespect. It's not right to dismiss their argument, publicly call them childish, intellectually dishonest, irrational, say you expect more from them, etc.

So... Some Christians are crazy for their faith, but it isn't right to ridicule faith that looks more like yours. I'm sure there's nothing intellectually dishonest about that.

 

How about "God hates fags"? Is that so stupid that we can all laugh at it, or is it like "God created the big bang"... something that is too special not to be protected from INow's viscous tongue? The real crime here is that you think you get to decide. How natural it must feel to call some Christians crazy for believing the former and telling INow that he has no right to ridicule the latter.

 

and people who think like that are happy +ing your posts to oblivion...

[Moontanman]

Ok, what the hell is going on here, what is wrong with cats in microwaves? God shows himself to me every time one explodes, the clean up is messy but the sight of god in the explosion is wonderful..... Seriously, all the religious really want is for us to respect their beliefs, what can possibly be wrong with that? sorting out which belief is the one that needs to be respected is easy, depends on which one the guy with the sword belongs too...

 

iNow gave what some seem to think were frivolous beliefs but buried in those were some real beliefs that humans have held and religion was used to justify those beliefs. The idea that there is some power greater than humans is a nice hobby horse idea, hard to see why it is not a good idea except when you think of who is doing the believing, humans, greedy, self centered, humans, once you get the idea of some greater power someone automatically comes up with the idea of using this belief to get what they want out of other people.

 

The extremes are easy to point out but those extremes resulted from the belief in a higher power, that belief in a higher power always results in people being used and abused by the people who law claim to know what that higher power wants.

 

I know that most of you say "well my belief is different, it cannot result in such abuses of power" but it always does. Sometimes the abuses are minor and easily over looked but those abuses grow, the old adage power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely applies to religion absolutely.

 

Once religion gains power over people the road to hell on earth is paved with the good intentions of the believers. That is why the creators of the USA tried to so hard to isolate the government from the religions of the day and the future. I can honestly say there is nothing that religion cannot be used to justify, if you doubt the veracity of my statement read a few holy books, Start with the Abrahamic and go on from there.

 

Human beings need to own the concept they are responsible for their actions, there is no higher power directing our actions, we do what we do for reasons that reside within us. Every time i discuss this i keep coming back to all the theists that have asked me "if I don't believe in god what keeps me from raping and pillaging to my hearts content". My answer that those things to not reside in my heart or brain and i have no desire to do them whether there is a god or not usually just gets a blank look of non understanding.

 

Can you tell me why we exist? What's beyond the universe? Why there was a Big Bang?

 

 

Why we exist.

 

We exist due to evolution, genes compete with each other to reproduce. This struggle has resulted in various species of living things struggling to reproduce the most and live to reproduce again. We exist due to this struggle and as far as complex animals go we are the species that is winning the war, we have swept all other complex animal species before us. Now we are mopping up and deciding which ones we will allow to continue to exist.

 

What is beyond the universe?

 

What could be beyond everything? What is north of the north pole? This is a nonsensical question and as such not only can science not answer it neither can religion.

 

Why was there a big bang?

 

There was a big bang because it could happen, why are there stars, galaxies, planets? We know they are due to natural causes we have gained that knowledge through science, the answers God's or religion have given us have been shown to be false, why do you assume the answer to why the universe formed cannot be yet another natural process we are just unaware of, how is the answer goddidit any more satisfying for the universe than it was for stars, galaxies and planets? we have some theories as to why it could happen but so far they are hardly better than speculation for the most part. But I can easily ask "Why would there not have been a big bang?" One thing is for sure no matter why there was a big bang if it hadn't happened we would not be here to ask the question.

Edited January 14, 2012 by Moontanman

[Tres Juicy]

You are correct, I said that and it wasn't part of your statement. If you don't look for something you can't find it.

 

Do you think Moses was on LSD?

 

How did Moses see a burning bush? A good possible explanation is that Moses was having a seizure. If Moses had a seizure while watching a fire, and then went out into the desert and had another seizure, it is very possible that the visual memory of the fire during the first seizure is overlaid upon the visual field during the second seizure, which then to the observer who is having such a seizure it would appear that a bush is on fire, which in effect 'never happened'. Many possible combinations can occur. This would appear to be the explanation of why the ancient Egyptians had heads of animals on the bodies of people or faces of people on bodies of animals. Which is the meaning of "Erregungsfang".

 

G-spot can have different meanings. If you look at a church spire with a "+" on top you can figure out why X marks the spot formed by G(od)

 

Isn't it more likely that Moses lied and used the religious myths of the time to his advantage

 

How many times in history have people done very similar things?

[Appolinaria]

1326562240[/url]' post='651130']

So... Some Christians are crazy for their faith, but it isn't right to ridicule faith that looks more like yours. I'm sure there's nothing intellectually dishonest about that.

 

How about "God hates fags"? Is that so stupid that we can all laugh at it, or is it like "God created the big bang"... something that is too special not to be protected from INow's viscous tongue? The real crime here is that you think you get to decide. How natural it must feel to call some Christians crazy for believing the former and telling INow that he has no right to ridicule the latter.

 

and people who think like that are happy +ing your posts to oblivion...

 

Yes, I find a Christian who robs a bank at gunpoint crazy. Yes, I find a violent atheist dictator crazy. Yes, I find a man who rapes a woman crazy. Yes, I find anyone who intentionally harms another crazy.

 

However, I find that if someone wants to believe in a creator or lack of one without murdering kittens they should be able to do so without any kind of hindrance put on their intellectual honesty.

The assumptions and misconstruing of my arguments need to stop.

 

What's crazy and intellectually unsound is taking any belief so far to resort to violence, prejudice, or ridicule.

What's not crazy and not intellectually dishonest is peacefully choosing to believe in a creator as the reason why we are here. Or peacefully choosing atheism, or anything else. Once again, who cares?!

[Moontanman]

Yes, I find a Christian who robs a bank at gunpoint crazy. Yes, I find a violent atheist dictator crazy. Yes, I find a man who rapes a woman crazy. Yes, I find anyone who intentionally harms another crazy.

 

And yet religion can be used to justify these behaviors, I have 12 underage wives because god says i can. I can have slaves because god says i can, I can just grab a woman who is not escorted by a male and have her as my own, as in I own her, I can take female children in battle and use them to please me, the list is long and crosses many belief systems. Not being a male generally means you are property to be done with as a male please, lovely idea, i think I'll go out and grab a few young virgins for my self.... You think they are crazy but what you think doesn't matter, it's what god thinks and they "know" what god thinks because the thoughts of god are actually their own....

 

However, I find that if someone wants to believe in a creator or lack of one without murdering kittens they should be able to do so without any kind of hindrance put on their intellectual honesty.

The assumptions and misconstruing of my arguments need to stop.

 

 

So you would put restraints on what people believe, only those whose beliefs you approve of are deserving of respect?

[Appolinaria]

1326565733[/url]' post='651146']

And yet religion can be used to justify these behaviors, I have 12 underage wives because god says i can. I can have slaves because god says i can, I can just grab a woman who is not escorted by a male and have her as my own, as in I own her, I can take female children in battle and use them to please me, the list is long and crosses many belief systems. Not being a male generally means you are property to be done with as a male please, lovely idea, i think I'll go out and grab a few young virgins for my self.... You think they are crazy but what you think doesn't matter, it's what god thinks and they "know" what god thinks because the thoughts of god are actually their own....

 

 

 

 

So you would put restraints on what people believe, only those whose beliefs you approve of are deserving of respect?

 

Why is it that because I believe in a creator I also believe in what you listed above? That is a stereotype.

If a belief is not harming anyone and not proven erroneous by any scientific evidence, why is it worthy of being called intellectually dishonest?

Edited January 14, 2012 by Appolinaria

[immortal]

I didn't started this thread to beg respect for thiestic beliefs without earning it first, I think both INow, Moontanman and Appolinaria have a point. INow and Moontanman think that something deserves respect only if substantiate evidence is been provided in favour of it where as Appolinaria thinks that such an argument has to be tolerated and respected and a credence should be given until it is reduced to the scientific method of enquiry and fully disproved. I either want to be a gnostic theist or a gnostic atheist and I don't want to be that crackpottery guy moving goal posts and making fallacies. I am someone who makes things work and talk less. Give me one or two days I'll come up with an argument so that we can discuss it on common grounds without any bias or any dishonesty.

[Appolinaria]

Accidental post.

Edited January 14, 2012 by Appolinaria

[iNow]

If a belief is not harming anyone and not proven erroneous by any scientific evidence, why is it worthy of being called intellectually dishonest?

I'm sorry if you don't like the answer, but an answer to this exact question has been shared multiple times already. Ignoring it doesn't make it magically become invalid.

 

Off the top of my head, I encourage you to see posts #18, 25, 42, 48, 50, 52, 85, and 86 of this thread in response to this question.

[Moontanman]

Why is it that because I believe in a creator I also believe in what you listed above? That is a stereotype.

If a belief is not harming anyone and not proven erroneous by any scientific evidence, why is it worthy of being called intellectually dishonest?

 

 

I am trying to show that belief in a higher power has historically resulted in these things, not harming anyone is what you think but by simply asserting this to be a valid belief then others come and say their beliefs are just as valid and you cannot say they are not because you think everyone is entitled to their beliefs.

 

In a perfect world i would tend to agree with you, if your beliefs do not hurt anyone then have at it no matter how weird they are but.... and I know it's the old slippery slope argument but once you allow for a creator that you define how can you justify keeping anyone else from defining their idea of creator? Who decides on who's creator is allowed? It's a five gallon bucket of poisonous biting worms.... and many people are willing to kill and be killed over their personal definition of creator...

[iNow]

In a perfect world i would tend to agree with you, if your beliefs do not hurt anyone then have at it no matter how weird they are but.... and I know it's the old slippery slope argument but once you allow for a creator that you define how can you justify keeping anyone else from defining their idea of creator? Who decides on who's creator is allowed? It's a five gallon bucket of poisonous biting worms.... and many people are willing to kill and be killed over their personal definition of creator...

You reminded me of this:

 

 

 

... and a slightly more unrestrained view:

 

 

[phantom]

Isn't it more likely that Moses lied and used the religious myths of the time to his advantage

 

How many times in history have people done very similar things?

I don't think there is any question that there are many lies, distortions of truth, and fabrications much of which was created to satisfy various agendas. If you feel that they are all LIARS, then this is the end of the pursuit Period. If I were a leader of a religious group, people would expect me to have all the answers. I can't say "I don't know". The best answer would be that it was God's will because no one would question God. If it is a lie, who cares? Nobody will figure it out anyway.

 

One the other hand, if you think there may be something behind these neurotheology issues and wish to find out the meaning of how God created man in his own image (or is that the other way around?) and the meaning of various symbolisms used in different cultures, you might get a better idea of what God meant to ancient cultures

[Iggy]

However, I find that if someone wants to believe in a creator or lack of one without murdering kittens they should be able to do so without any kind of hindrance put on their intellectual honesty.

What's not crazy and not intellectually dishonest is peacefully choosing to believe in a creator as the reason why we are here. Or peacefully choosing atheism, or anything else. Once again, who cares?!

How peaceful a belief is has nothing to do with how intellectually honest it is. That's a red herring.

 

Because there is no objective theistic evidence, theistic beliefs require cognitive bias... so, of course, they are intellectually dishonest no matter how peaceful you want to make them.

 

 

Plus, your religious beliefs may be benign, but when you start demanding that other people not be allowed to ridicule them -- *that* is not benign. You're looking and hoping for some kind of rule against impiety, and you could look up the death of Socrates or the exile of Anaxagoras to see what a bad idea that is.

Edited January 15, 2012 by Iggy

[Appolinaria]

How peaceful a belief is has nothing to do with how intellectually honest it is. That's a red herring.

 

Because there is no objective theistic evidence, theistic beliefs require cognitive bias... so, of course, they are intellectually dishonest no matter how peaceful you want to make them.

 

 

Plus, your religious beliefs may be benign, but when you start demanding that other people not be allowed to ridicule them -- *that* is not benign. You're looking and hoping for some kind of rule against impiety, and you could look up the death of Socrates or the exile of Anaxagoras to see what a bad idea that is.

 

Yeah, you're right. I believe there's a creator and deserve ridicule.

 

Until there's objective evidence that can prove there is no creative force responsible for our universe and explain why we came into existence, then it's fair game.

 

You reminded me of this:

 

 

 

... and a slightly more unrestrained view:

 

 

 

Cool videos, thanks for sharing. I definitely liked Mr. Dawkin's comments about faith, really interesting.

 

iNow, haven't you had dreams of places stranger than anything a planet can harbor, and this comes from our tiny little human brains... a product of the cosmos itself! There MUST be more than planets circling around stars and our material form. Statistically, there are probably alien beings that sprouted somewhere off in space who surpass us in intelligence. Imagine ones with larger, more complex brains than ours and a significant amount of time to evolve without dying off. Think about how much we've accomplished in just one hundred years! There's gotta be aliens out there who figured out a lot more than we have. Imagine what those advanced beings could create, what doors they could open, barriers they could break through, things unfathomable to us. And these are children of the stars themselves. I do think there is A LOT more behind the veil of our reality than we think, a lot beyond our universe. A lot.

Edited January 15, 2012 by Appolinaria

[Arete]

Statistically, there are probably alien beings that sprouted somewhere off in space who surpass us in intelligence.

 

Given our sample size of inhabited planets is one, calling statistical significance might be a little premature

[Tres Juicy]

 

Yeah, you're right. I believe there's a creator and deserve ridicule.

 

Until there's objective evidence that can prove there is no creative force responsible for our universe and explain why we came into existence, then it's fair game.

 

 

 

Cool videos, thanks for sharing. I definitely liked Mr. Dawkin's comments about faith, really interesting.

iNow, haven't you had dreams of places stranger than anything a planet can harbor, and this comes from our tiny little human brains... a product of the cosmos itself! There MUST be more than planets circling around stars and our material form. Statistically, there are probably alien beings that sprouted somewhere off in space who surpass us in intelligence. Imagine ones with larger, more complex brains than ours and a significant amount of time to evolve without dying off. Think about how much we've accomplished in just one hundred years! There's gotta be aliens out there who figured out a lot more than we have. Imagine what those advanced beings could create, what doors they could open, barriers they could break through, things unfathomable to us. And these are children of the stars themselves. I do think there is A LOT more behind the veil of our reality than we think, a lot beyond our universe. A lot.

 

 

This is still not a case for god or any diety/creator

 

 

As for this:

 

Yeah, you're right. I believe there's a creator and deserve ridicule.

 

You're being sarcastic but imagine the shoe on the other foot as it were, if I told you that I believed in the easter bunny what would you think?