budullewraagh Posted November 4, 2004 Posted November 4, 2004 refer to: http://217.160.163.211/globalvote2004/ what do you think of the site? is it valid? does it make a difference? does it mean anything to you?
Lance Posted November 4, 2004 Posted November 4, 2004 Why would it be valid, make a difference, or mean anything to anybody? Even the Idea of letting the world vote on a single countries leader is ridiculous.
Pangloss Posted November 4, 2004 Posted November 4, 2004 Why would it? It's not news, it's not based on a preponderance of all the issues facing Americans, and it's not voted on by Americans. How many times do we need to say "world opinion will not be the sole determining factor in our choice of actions" before it sinks in?
Sayonara Posted November 4, 2004 Posted November 4, 2004 It's interesting to see who thinks what, but other than that there's very little point to it. sole determining factor I don't think there are many who claim it should be.
Tetrahedrite Posted November 4, 2004 Posted November 4, 2004 Although it doesn't matter what the rest of the world thinks in terms of the final result, the result does affect the rest of the world (unfortunately) and it is therefore legitimate for people to be concerned with US politics.
budullewraagh Posted November 4, 2004 Author Posted November 4, 2004 oh i completely agree that the world was not represented in tuesday's elections and that they should not have the final decision on the outcome of our elections, but i was just wondering your opinions of the survey
Lance Posted November 5, 2004 Posted November 5, 2004 I thought http://www.benrik.co.uk/content/mood.asp was more interesting than the global vote (its by the same person).
Tetrahedrite Posted November 5, 2004 Posted November 5, 2004 The most interesting thing about the survey is that bush got the best result (37%) in the Middle East, of all places!! A large number of expats must of participated.
Pangloss Posted November 5, 2004 Posted November 5, 2004 I don't think there are many who claim it should be. I think your attempt at moderation is overshadowing your sense of reality. Clearly you and I both know a very large number of people who believe *exactly* what I just said -- that Americans should do what world opinion is telling them to do, and nothing else (such as American opinion) is relevent. Note: I haven't said that Europeans expect the US to follow European orders. Rather, it's a question of whether Europeans understand what the reasons are for Americans being in favor of continuing its presence in Iraq (amongst other specific matters), or are even interested in what those opinions might be. Mind you, there's no question in my mind that Americans fail to appreciate the opinions of Europeans. They've gotten an earful about the fact that Europe is angry. But they're not getting a lot of expository reasoning and calm, logical opinion. They're just getting pictures of demonstrations in Trafalgar Square. That's something that needs to be fixed. But I also believe that we're seeing a lack of understanding of *American* opinion amongst Europeans. I suspect you're not getting enough of *our* expository reasoning and logical discourse on these subjects in your media. Understanding is a two-way street. (Edit: Just to give an example of that, check out this quote from Tetra in another thread.) In Australia, very few people that I know doubt the credibility F9/11. I can, however, see that if I was an American I would not want to be told who to vote for by a movie producer with a grudge. In light of the result, it is clear that it has not swayed the voting public but it may very well of had the effect of making a larger portion of the world hostile to the re-elected Bush administration.
Ophiolite Posted November 5, 2004 Posted November 5, 2004 How many times do we need to say "world opinion will not be the sole determining factor in our choice of actions" before it sinks in?It would be nice if occasionally it was one of the factors.When Bush said 'You are either with us or against us' my reaction (and yes' date=' it was a [b']reaction[/b]) was to say, 'That leaves me no option. I guess I'm against you.' Diplomacy appears to be underated by this President and this administration. Some of us older Brits recall how an Empire is run. It involves a self righteous arrogance. We can recognise the symptoms.
Aardvark Posted November 5, 2004 Posted November 5, 2004 Diplomacy appears to be underated by this President and this administration. Some of us older Brits recall how an Empire is run. It involves a self righteous arrogance. We can recognise the symptoms. And yet the British empire was the most succesful empire the world has ever seen bringing wealth, power and progating a massive cultural legacy. Maybe Bush is working on the right lines after all.
Ophiolite Posted November 5, 2004 Posted November 5, 2004 And yet the British empire was the most succesful empire the world has ever seen bringing wealth' date=' power and progating a massive cultural legacy. Maybe Bush is working on the right lines after all.[/quote']Bringing wealth to Britain at the expense of the other countries of the Empire, abrogating power so that the legacy is still haunting us in Africa today. Yes, good news if you were British. But it's not a bad thing that English has become the lingua franca ,[Don't you just love irony!] as I am a crap linguist.
Aardvark Posted November 5, 2004 Posted November 5, 2004 Bringing wealth to Britain at the expense of the other countries of the Empire' date=' abrogating power so that the legacy is still haunting us in Africa today. Yes, good news if you were British.But it's not a bad thing that English has become the [i']lingua franca ,[/i][Don't you just love irony!] as I am a crap linguist. Fortunately i am British, and i also love irony and am a crap linguist as well. Seems like things worked out pretty well from my point of view.
Pangloss Posted November 5, 2004 Posted November 5, 2004 It would be nice if occasionally it was one of the factors.When Bush said 'You are either with us or against us' my reaction (and yes, it was a reaction) was to say, 'That leaves me no option. I guess I'm against you.' Diplomacy appears to be underated by this President and this administration. Some of us older Brits recall how an Empire is run. It involves a self righteous arrogance. We can recognise the symptoms. An absolutely perfect example of what I'm talking about. You go right out to the extreme of assuming that you cannot possibly be "with us", and therefore you are against us. Then you go on to use it to rationalize a really extreme assessment of the administration based around a *single point*. Amazing. Like I said, I think this sort of thing happens *all the time*. That's what I'm talking about when I say that your opinion will not be the sole determining factor in our thinking, no matter how often or how loudly you insist that it be exactly that.
budullewraagh Posted November 5, 2004 Author Posted November 5, 2004 The most interesting thing about the survey is that bush got the best result (37%) in the Middle East, of all places!! A large number of expats must of participated. israel, buddy And yet the British empire was the most succesful empire the world has ever seen bringing wealth, power and progating a massive cultural legacy. Maybe Bush is working on the right lines after all most successful? wealth power and cultural legacy? define "successful" and justify that statement. i can think of a few contenders. whats with the wealth power and cultural legacy? they shamelessly exploited the resources of various colonies in a mercantalist manner. thats not cool. power? yeah, but they also used it too much (armitsar massacre ring a bell, anyone?) and it backfired. cultural legacy? they destroyed more culture (chinese government during opium wars) than they preserved.
Aardvark Posted November 5, 2004 Posted November 5, 2004 israel' date=' buddy most successful? wealth power and cultural legacy? define "successful" and justify that statement. i can think of a few contenders. whats with the wealth power and cultural legacy? they shamelessly exploited the resources of various colonies in a mercantalist manner. thats not cool. power? yeah, but they also used it too much (armitsar massacre ring a bell, anyone?) and it backfired. cultural legacy? they destroyed more culture (chinese government during opium wars) than they preserved.[/quote'] Succesful. Ruling a 1/3 of the world. Becoming wealthly and industrially advanced by exploiting said portion of world. Cultural legacy, Lots and lots of people speak English. Very convienent for me.
Sayonara Posted November 5, 2004 Posted November 5, 2004 I think your attempt at moderation is overshadowing your sense of reality. I disagree. I am sure that there are many people who think that America should do or not do certain things, my contention is with the idea that there are many people who believe America will take world opinion as being the sole determining factor for its actions. I understand why you find it annoying, but let's not make mountains out of molehills.
atinymonkey Posted November 5, 2004 Posted November 5, 2004 Doesn't the 9% vote for Bush on the website match the votes cast in Washington? Are Europeans invading Washington in secret? O_o cultural legacy? they destroyed more culture (chinese government during opium wars) than they preserved. Well, apart from inventing modern architecture and engineering we developed thousands of things that are taken for granted today. Sewer systems, prefabricated housing, democratic government, the modern judicial system, potatoes in the diet, electric lights, telephones, computers, steel, automobiles, the combustion engine, police, vast swathes of literature, universities, the scientific method, tarmac, the stock market, insurance, jet engines, DNA, the sandwich, Australia, cat flaps etc, etc. Modern society may be subject to transient changes, but it's all based on the British model.
Pangloss Posted November 5, 2004 Posted November 5, 2004 I don't understand what it is that you think the DC vote is indicative of. If you're going to make an assertion there, go ahead and make it, so I can debunk it.
atinymonkey Posted November 5, 2004 Posted November 5, 2004 That Europeans are invading Washington in secret. I thought I said that. Jeeze, nobody ever listens to the crazy theorys.
5614 Posted November 5, 2004 Posted November 5, 2004 the data will have been biased and not randomly distribute (i think) based on the fact that you dont know who set it up, maybe the person who started it wanted kerry to win (if they wanted bush, they wouldnt have made the site!). therefore they would have sent it to there kerry supporting friends, the email would have mainly circled in kerry supporting groups. obviously there will be an overspill into bush groups (hence the 30(something)%). i believe it is innacurate data... or at least it is not randomly distributed (previous para). whereas a randomly distributed email or one covering the whole world (impossible to do) would have been more accurate. despite that it is irrelevant and nothing will effect the USA elections, you may as well just settle down for another 4 years of bush!
Pangloss Posted November 5, 2004 Posted November 5, 2004 Oh I see. Well, that is where all the embassies are....
Ophiolite Posted November 5, 2004 Posted November 5, 2004 An absolutely perfect[/b'] example of what I'm talking about. You go right out to the extreme of assuming that you cannot possibly be "with us", and therefore you are against us. No, PanGloss. Usually you make a lot of sense, but you have lost me here. President Bush has given me an option - 'with us, or against us'. An option presented in a way that I take as a threat, wherein I am being told 'If you aren't on our side, and you'd better be, then just watch out'. Curiously I don't like being bullied. I should like to have had the option of saying, "well I applaud most of your ultimate goals, I'd like you to consider modifying this goal, for these reasons. Now lets talk about the methods we'll employ too achieve these goals, and perhaps we'll have to disagree on that one, and compromise on that one." That's dialogue, that's co-operation, that's sensible. But what we were told was 'the US is going to do this, so ***k you if you don't like it." Quite a few of us don't like that approach. So to repeat, I didn't go out on an extreme, your President picked me up and put me there. Like I said, I think this sort of thing happens *all the time*. That's what I'm talking about when I say that your opinion will not be the sole determining factor in our thinking, no matter how often or how loudly you insist that it be exactly that. Please read my post. I am not asking that 'our opinion be the sole determining factor in your thinking'. I never have asked this. I never shall. I am asking that it be one of the factors, for at the moment it patently isn't.
Ophiolite Posted November 5, 2004 Posted November 5, 2004 Modern society may be subject to transient changes' date=' but it's all based on the British model. [/quote']Don't you think you have to ask, as a Brit, 'What did the Roman's ever do for us?'
Aardvark Posted November 5, 2004 Posted November 5, 2004 The Romans? Johnny come latelys. Don't you ever ask 'what did Homo Erectus ever do for us?'
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