God and personal liberty and power

[allthegoodnamesweretaken]

Liberty is defined as the state of being free within society from oppressive restrictions imposed by authority on one's way of life. God imposes restrictions the same way that government does. Therefore by submitting to an authority whether it is your god or your government, you are sacrificing your personal liberty.

This is all speculation based on the definition. Please tell me if i am wrong.

[Tres Juicy]

Liberty is defined as the state of being free within society from oppressive restrictions imposed by authority on one's way of life. God imposes restrictions the same way that government does. Therefore by submitting to an authority whether it is your god or your government, you are sacrificing your personal liberty.

This is all speculation based on the definition. Please tell me if i am wrong.

 

One authority is much like another and I've never been too keen myself... but if I had to choose between one derived from human consensus or one made up by a magical man in the sky, I know which one I'd prefer.....

[Athena]

Technology does not even come into my argument at all.

 

My point was about having belief/faith in yourself rather than some god construct.

 

You seem to have missed the point somewhat.

 

 

 

Let me put it another way: Would you rather believe -

 

A) that some magical force would probably look after you (if you follow certain rules and conditions)

 

or

 

B) that you were fully capable of looking after yourself

 

Laugh, are you sure it isn't technology that gives you so much confidence? I much rather cross an ocean with today's technology than do so in the Mayflower. I think technology has conditioned us to think in terms of what we can do, rather than call on God. For sure if one is farming, it is really nice to know we are not completely dependent on the weather for our water, and we can stop bugs with chemicals, and grasshoppers will not so completely destroy the vegetation that we have nothing to eat but grasshoppers. You may not be aware of it, but for sure technology has influenced how you think.

 

As for that God people have so much trouble with, it is most unfortunate we replaced liberal education with education for technology. Perhaps we have enough technology now, to return to liberal education and the understanding of God and morals that a democracy needs.

 

Does anyone today know, God is unknown? There are no grounds for all the complaints against God. Can anyone give me an example of a God doing anything that denies us liberty, or in any other way harms us?

Edited January 16, 2012 by Athena

[Moontanman]

Laugh, are you sure it isn't technology that gives you so much confidence? I much rather cross an ocean with today's technology than do so in the Mayflower. I think technology has conditioned us to think in terms of what we can do, rather than call on God. For sure if one is farming, it is really nice to know we are not completely dependent on the weather for our water, and we can stop bugs with chemicals, and grasshoppers will not so completely destroy the vegetation that we have nothing to eat but grasshoppers. You may not be aware of it, but for sure technology has influenced how you think.

 

As for that God people have so much trouble with, it is most unfortunate we replaced liberal education with education for technology. Perhaps we have enough technology now, to return to liberal education and the understanding of God and morals that a democracy needs.

 

Does anyone today know, God is unknown? There are no grounds for all the complaints against God. Can anyone give me an example of a God doing anything that denies us liberty, or in any other way harms us?

 

I can't give you evidence of a god or gods doing anything what so ever but I can show how messed up their fan clubs are...

[Tres Juicy]

Laugh, are you sure it isn't technology that gives you so much confidence? I much rather cross an ocean with today's technology than do so in the Mayflower.

 

Regardless of what I'm sailing in, I'd rather go with a firm belief that I am capable of sailing well enough due to my experience and knowledge, rather than trust it to the unknown

 

 

Does anyone today know, God is unknown? There are no grounds for all the complaints against God. Can anyone give me an example of a God doing anything that denies us liberty, or in any other way harms us?

 

Well, if you believe in god there are loads of examples

 

Earthquakes for one...

[Athena]

These are emergent phenomena, complexities of life that are built up from things that are all based on the laws of physics. The book, Web of Life, by F. Capra, covers this very nicely. Though the laws of physics allow for many more dimensions than we are aware of, and so there is about 95% of reality that is beyond our perception, or the science of material analysis, at this time. Seems as if there is room for more perspective.

 

But however we define things, isn't this question about articulating the OWS movement mostly about humane-ness vs. selfishness; or short-term myopic perspectives vs. long-term broader perspectives?

 

~

 

Capra's god is a pantheistic God, and that is quit agreeable with my understanding of God. Now do you want to define the physics of my reaction to your post? There is something happening that is not just matter. Thought and spirit are not matter.

 

Our present society has taken the Christian anti spiritualism too far, but than the religion comes out of materialistic Rome, and is all mixed up with the popular superstition at the time. Christianity is really quit paradoxical in that way. However, a rock is not going to jump up and engage in a discussion of God, because God is asleep in rocks and minerals, waking in animals, to know self in man. We are God's consciousness, and I do not give you the right to deny me this belief.

 

However, I have a big problem with believing in other people's experiences of God. I can believe only in my own, and this is what liberty is about. If you do not experience God, fine, some people are color blind. We are different. But liberty means you can not deny me my experience of God. You can not force the Jewish, Christian, Muslim, Hindu, Aztec, beliefs of God on me, nor force the limitations on me that are forced on all, when no concept of God is tolerated. Back to Socrates cave. I am not staying in that cave. I am claiming the liberty to leave it.

 

If I do something on the belief it is what God would have me do, I can be declare me insane, or given the meaning of liberty to do as I believe God would us do. This is the essential meaning of liberty. Property rights, give an employer the right to fire me but who owns government jobs? We the people. Property rights, give property owners the right to evict me for no reason at all, with a 30 day no cause eviction notice. Property rights trump God right now, but in the long run, the consequences of crushing liberty will not be good.

 

Hopefully, I am getting closer to explaining what God has to do with our liberty. Thank you for the arguments.

 

Regardless of what I'm sailing in, I'd rather go with a firm belief that I am capable of sailing well enough due to my experience and knowledge, rather than trust it to the unknown

 

 

 

 

Well, if you believe in god there are loads of examples

 

Earthquakes for one...

 

You better depend on something besides how well you can sail, or you will end up swimming and there is a limit to how we can be in the water. With your knowledge of sailing, what are the things you want to be aware of besides how to sail, which by the way is a technology? Might you want to depend on the construction of sail boat as well, and perhaps a devise for figuring where you are when sitting in the middle of the ocean. In other words, isn't technology part of your confidence?

 

Super thank you for the earthquake answer! And what definition of God are you using?

 

As I understand God, earthquakes do happen, but they have nothing to do with human activity, and throwing people in the volcano, or otherwise sacrificing humans, will not stop earthquakes, nor cause the rain to fall. That is not how nature works, and to know God, we must study nature, and then we can only infer something about God. Because we do not experience God directly, we can not know God, and I certainly do not rely holy books, except to make note of where they are in agreement, and if given my own experience, this seems rational. This pretty well, eliminates superstition. And your argument seems to depend on superstition.

Edited January 16, 2012 by Athena

[Tres Juicy]

You better depend on something besides how well you can sail, or you will end up swimming and there is a limit to how we can be in the water. With your knowledge of sailing, what are the things you want to be aware of besides how to sail, which by the way is a technology? Might you want to depend on the construction of sail boat as well, and perhaps a devise for figuring where you are when sitting in the middle of the ocean. In other words, isn't technology part of your confidence?

 

In a way yes, but it would be more sensible in my opinion to have confidence in technology or the craftsmanship of the boat or the knowledge that allowed us to create a compass than a belief that as long as I'm pious/virtuous I'll be fine.

 

Are you suggesting that a pious person wouldn't need a sturdy boat, a compass and a decent knowledge of the sea in order to sail successfully?

 

 

Super thank you for the earthquake answer! And what definition of God are you using?

 

As I understand God, earthquakes do happen, but they have nothing to do with human activity, and throwing people in the volcano, or otherwise sacrificing humans, will not stop earthquakes, nor cause the rain to fall. That is not how nature works, and to know God, we must study nature, and then we can only infer something about God. Because we do not experience God directly, we can not know God, and I certainly do not rely holy books, except to make note of where they are in agreement, and if given my own experience, this seems rational. This pretty well, eliminates superstition. And your argument seems to depend on superstition.

 

How does my argument depend on superstition? You asked for an instance where god has harmed us, I said earthquakes.

 

After all, isn't belief in god just the ultimate superstition?

Edited January 16, 2012 by Tres Juicy

[Athena]

One authority is much like another and I've never been too keen myself... but if I had to choose between one derived from human consensus or one made up by a magical man in the sky, I know which one I'd prefer.....

 

I am afraid you are making a serious and dangerous mistake!!! Thank you so much for making it possible for me to address the mistake you have made the what the made the US critically different from Germany, before we replaced our liberal education with Germany's education for technology.

 

The German people are very nice people, but they have a regretible history, that those educated for technology in the US are repeating. This is why I opened this thread, and sincerely thank you all for helping me have a better understanding of the problem.

 

Martin Luther, the man we credit for starting the Protestant Reformation, and whose name sake Martin Luther King, we will be celebrating tomorrow, totally believed the witch hunts were necessary, and equally believed Jews were the worse human beings on earth.

 

The witch hunts started in Germany and the more witches that were found, the more everyone believed in witches. This is one example of human authority being tragically wrong!

 

The next easiest example is the persecution of Jews in the 1940's. It is today's events that moved me to open this subject, and I have asked, what is difference between hiding a homeless woman in my home so she can recover from breast surgery, and hiding a Jew? I will tell you the difference. Our homeless people aren't Jews, however, the prejudice is the same, and our reliance on human authority is the same, and the destruction of our liberty is the same.

 

I grieve the failure to teach our young what made the US difference, and to give them a good understanding of liberty and what God has to do that liberty. Once we knew it was our duty to oppose authority when we believed it was wrong, and I literally feel a heavy weight on my heart when arguing against your all's faith in human authority. We no longer teach, it is our duty to oppose authority when we believe those in the seats of authority are wrong. This is the importance of answering to God, instead of man. It prevents or stops things like witch hunts and the persecution of Jews, and I hope, the persecution of the homeless, and destruction of our liberty.

 

What concerns me most is the arguments you all are making, and the loss of our liberty. I think you all are making a very serious mistake. What I am gaining most from this, is confidence I must address the religious issue. I wanted to avoid the religious issue and that stopped me from completing a book. Now I realize how important it is that I directly address the religious issue. Thank you.

 

In a way yes, but it would be more sensible in my opinion to have confidence in technology or the craftsmanship of the boat or the knowledge that allowed us to create a compass than a belief that as long as I'm pious/virtuous I'll be fine.

 

Are you suggesting that a pious person wouldn't need a sturdy boat, a compass and a decent knowledge of the sea in order to sail successfully?

 

 

 

 

How does my argument depend on superstition? You asked for an instance where god has harmed us, I said earthquakes.

 

After all, isn't belief in god just the ultimate superstition?

 

Absolutely not. How does studying nature, and ultimately relying on one's own judgment, become superstition?

Edited January 16, 2012 by Athena

[Tres Juicy]

This is the importance of answering to God, instead of man. It prevents or stops things like witch hunts and the persecution of Jews, and I hope, the persecution of the homeless, and destruction of our liberty.

 

 

I think you'll find that your argument falls down when you realize that the witch hunts were driven by religious beliefs and part of the reason the Jews were persecuted was because of their religion.

 

Belief in god did not help these people did it?

 

Absolutely not. How does studying nature, and ultimately relying on one's own judgment, become superstition?

 

What you've described here is science, not religion

Edited January 16, 2012 by Tres Juicy

[Athena]

Liberty is defined as the state of being free within society from oppressive restrictions imposed by authority on one's way of life. God imposes restrictions the same way that government does. Therefore by submitting to an authority whether it is your god or your government, you are sacrificing your personal liberty.

This is all speculation based on the definition. Please tell me if i am wrong.

 

 

Please, give me an example of God imposing restrictions. There is no way God can impose restrictions like a government does. This absolutely is not possible.

[Tres Juicy]

Please, give me an example of God imposing restrictions. There is no way God can impose restrictions like a government does. This absolutely is not possible.

 

 

Probably the most obvious example:

 

http://en.wikipedia....en_Commandments

 

Not only that, the bible contains lists of things you can and cannot eat...

Nevertheless, you are not to eat of these among those which chew the cud, or among those that divide the hoof in two: the camel and the rabbit and the shaphan, for though they chew the cud, they do not divide the hoof; they are unclean for you. The pig, because it divides the hoof but does not chew the cud, it is unclean for you. You shall not eat any of their flesh nor touch their carcasses.

 

¹ Yahweh spoke to Moses and Aaron and said to them,

 

² 'Speak to the Israelites and say: "Of all animals living on land these are the creatures you may eat:

 

³ "You may eat any animal that has a cloven hoof, divided into two parts, and that is a ruminant.

 

⁴ The following, which either chew the cud or have a cloven hoof, are the ones that you may not eat: you will regard the camel as unclean, because though it is ruminant, it does not have a cloven hoof;

 

⁵ you will regard the coney as unclean, because though it is ruminant, it does not have a cloven hoof;

 

⁶ you will regard the hare as unclean, because though it is ruminant, it does not have a cloven hoof;

 

⁷ you will regard the pig as unclean, because though it has a cloven hoof, divided into two parts, it is not a ruminant.

 

⁸ You will not eat the meat of these or touch their dead bodies; you will regard them as unclean.

 

⁹ "Of all that lives in water, these you may eat: "Anything that has fins and scales, and lives in the water, whether in sea or river, you may eat.

 

¹⁰ But anything in sea or river that does not have fins and scales, of all the small water-creatures and all the living things found there, you will regard as detestable.

 

¹¹ You will regard them as detestable; you must not eat their meat and you will regard their carcases as detestable.

 

¹² Anything that lives in water, but not having fins and scales, you will regard as detestable.

 

¹³ "Of the birds these are the ones that you will regard as detestable; they may not be eaten, they are detestable for eating: "The tawny vulture, the griffon, the osprey,

 

¹⁴ the kite, the various kinds of buzzard,

 

¹⁵ all kinds of raven,

 

¹⁶ the ostrich, the screech owl, the seagull, the various kinds of hawk,

 

¹⁷ horned owl, night owl, cormorant, barn owl,

 

¹⁸ ibis, pelican, white vulture,

 

¹⁹ stork, the various kinds of heron, the hoopoe and the bat.

 

²⁰ "All winged insects moving on four feet you will regard as detestable for eating.

 

²¹ Of all these winged insects you may eat only the following: those with the sort of legs above their feet which enable them to leap over the ground.

 

²² These are the ones you may eat: the various kinds of migratory locust, the various kinds of solham locust, hargol locust and hagab locust.

 

²³ But all other winged insects on four feet you will regard as detestable for eating.

 

²⁴ "By the following you will be made unclean. Anyone who touches the carcase of one will be unclean until evening.

 

²⁵ Anyone who picks up their carcases must wash his clothing and will be unclean until evening.

 

²⁶ Animals that have hoofs, but not cloven, and that are not ruminant, you will regard as unclean; anyone who touches them will be unclean.

 

²⁷ Those four-footed animals which walk on the flat of their paws you will regard as unclean; anyone who touches their carcases will be unclean until evening,

 

²⁸ and anyone who picks up their carcases must wash his clothing and will be unclean until evening. You will regard them as unclean.

 

²⁹ "Of the small creatures which crawl along the ground, these are the ones which you will regard as unclean: the mole, the rat, the various kinds of lizard:

 

³⁰ gecko, koah, letaah, chameleon and tinshamet.

 

³¹ "Of all the small creatures, these are the animals which you must regard as disgusting. Anyone who touches them when they are dead will be unclean until evening.

 

³² "Any object on which one of these creatures falls when it is dead becomes unclean: wooden utensil, clothing, skin, sacking, any utensil whatever. It must be immersed in water and will remain unclean until evening: then it will be clean.

 

³³ If the creature falls into an earthenware vessel, the vessel must be broken; whatever the vessel contains is unclean.

 

³⁴ Any edible food will be unclean if the water touches it; any drinkable liquid will be unclean, no matter what its container.

 

³⁵ Anything on which the carcase of such a creature may fall will be unclean: be it oven or stove, it must be destroyed; for they are unclean and you will regard them as unclean

 

³⁶ (although springs, wells and stretches of water will remain clean); anyone who touches one of their carcases will be unclean.

 

³⁷ If one of their carcases falls on any kind of seed, the seed will remain clean;

 

³⁸ but if the seed has been moistened and one of their carcases falls on it, you will regard it as unclean.

 

³⁹ "If one of the animals that you use as food dies, anyone who touches the carcase will be unclean until evening;

 

⁴⁰ anyone who eats any of the carcase must wash his clothing and will remain unclean until evening; anyone who picks up the carcase must wash his clothing and will remain unclean until evening.

 

⁴¹ "Any creature that swarms on the ground is detestable for eating; it must not be eaten.

 

⁴² Anything that moves on its belly, anything that moves on four legs or more -- in short all the creatures that swarm on the ground -- you will not eat, since they are detestable.

 

⁴³ Do not make yourselves detestable with all these swarming creatures; do not defile yourselves with them, do not be defiled by them.

 

⁴⁴ For it is I, Yahweh, who am your God. You have been sanctified and have become holy because I am holy: do not defile yourselves with all these creatures that swarm on the ground.

 

⁴⁵ Yes, it is I, Yahweh, who brought you out of Egypt to be your God: you must therefore be holy because I am holy." '

 

⁴⁶ Such is the <A href="http://www.catholic.org/encyclopedia/view.php?id=6916">law concerning animals, birds, all living creatures that move in water and all creatures that swarm on the ground.

 

⁴⁷ Its purpose is to distinguish the clean from the unclean, the creatures that may be eaten from those that may not be eaten.

 

 

 

It's full of restrictions, I really don't know how you can say that

Edited January 16, 2012 by Tres Juicy

[Athena]

I think you'll find that your argument falls down when you realize that the witch hunts were driven by religious beliefs and part of the reason the Jews were persecuted was because of their religion.

 

Belief in god did not help these people did it?

 

 

 

What you've described here is science, not religion

 

You could use more information. The witch hunts were more secular than religious. Being a witch hunter and prosecutor was considered the high science of the day, and governments pursued the witch hunts for secular reasons.

 

http://departments.kings.edu/womens_history/witch/werror.html#Church

 

We have the same religion today, and do not have witch hunts, so obviously it is not the religion that causes witch hunts. Human authority can be wrong, as it has been many times, and we must not put too much faith in it.

 

Yes, I have said we need to study nature and then can infer something about God, and yes, this is not religion. It is not religion until we define God, and the people of Athens had a problem with letting Christians define God. So do I. Because the Christians, and others, have given us a faulted explanation of God, that doesn't mean a God is not possible, and having one is very important to liberty.

[Tres Juicy]

You could use more information. The witch hunts were more secular than religious. Being a witch hunter and prosecutor was considered the high science of the day, and governments pursued the witch hunts for secular reasons.

 

http://departments.k...ror.html#Church

 

We have the same religion today, and do not have witch hunts, so obviously it is not the religion that causes witch hunts. Human authority can be wrong, as it has been many times, and we must not put too much faith in it.

 

Yes, I have said we need to study nature and then can infer something about God, and yes, this is not religion. It is not religion until we define God, and the people of Athens had a problem with letting Christians define God. So do I. Because the Christians, and others, have given us a faulted explanation of God, that doesn't mean a God is not possible, and having one is very important to liberty.

 

What about the Jews?

[Athena]

Probably the most obvious example:

 

http://en.wikipedia....en_Commandments

 

Not only that, the bible contains lists of things you can and cannot eat...

 

 

 

 

 

It's full of restrictions, I really don't know how you can say that

 

 

Excuse me, why are you using the bible as the authority about God?

Edited January 16, 2012 by Athena

[iNow]

You guys should agree on a definition of god first, otherwise, you'll continue chasing each others tail.

[Moontanman]

Excuse me, why are you using the bible as the authority about God?

 

 

Because the written word of god or gods is all we have, other than crazies who hear voices. Athena, do you understand that the government is what stopped things like witch burning? yes at the time religion was seen as the government, only when secular government gelded religion did such things stop. Hitler was very religious and thought he was doing gods will. you seem to have the idea that god can be what ever you want him to be and maybe for individuals that can be true but no one not even the ancient Greeks thought that way, they all owed allegiance to corporeal gods. Once the idea of god as a higher power comes into play then who decides what his will is? Who decides what god sees as moral? Does god stop by and say "oh by the way that witch burning thing has to stop" No... humans had to stop it, secular humans who did not believe that god had the authority to demand such immoral acts.

 

Your moral indignation at what is happening to your friend is not based in gods morals, it's is based on your morals, morals you have accumulated over time from being exposed to our culture. if you had been a part of a different culture then throwing babies into volcanoes would seem moral to you. Morals do not come from god, they come from us, and yes some people are psychopaths, but most people take on the morals of their society...

 

The concept of god is a very dangerous thing because it allows people to justify anything..... Just say god told me to do it and you are scott free....

[Athena]

What about the Jews?

 

What about Jews? Their stay in Babylon and what they share with Zoroastrianism is interesting. We really don't know how separate Zoroastrianism is from the ideas originating in India, but we can know before Zoroastrianism was over come by superstition, Cyrus freed the Jews and ordered that Peria would rebuild their temple. We can know that the Hebrew God of Abraham was one of many, and not so different from other gods. Making this god believable to people in the day. In fact, the Jewish knowledge of spells was so respected, their incantations can be found in Egyptian tombs.

 

What about the Aztecs who also believed they were God's chosen people. Their are so many parallels between Jewish and Aztec mythology, that it gives credence to the Book of Mormon.

 

There is so much Egyptian theology mixed in Christianity, we can hardly speak of religious explanations without including it. And then of course we need to speak of Hellenism and the meaning of "in the beginning was the word", and the terrible conflict between Hellenist and Jews! And the role Mirthraism plays in Christian mythology.

 

Taoism, of course, goes nicely with quantum physics, and there was a tribe in Africa that had a golden chair given to their lead by God. My point is, if we are to argue about God, we really need to get beyond the Christian bible. But this is not necessary for this thread, which is about what God has to do with personal liberty and power.

[Tres Juicy]

Excuse me, why are you using the bible as the authority about God?

 

What else is there?

[Moontanman]

What about Jews? Their stay in Babylon and what they share with Zoroastrianism is interesting. We really don't know how separate Zoroastrianism is from the ideas originating in India, but we can know before Zoroastrianism was over come by superstition, Cyrus freed the Jews and ordered that Peria would rebuild their temple. We can know that the Hebrew God of Abraham was one of many, and not so different from other gods. Making this god believable to people in the day. In fact, the Jewish knowledge of spells was so respected, their incantations can be found in Egyptian tombs.

 

What about the Aztecs who also believed they were God's chosen people. Their are so many parallels between Jewish and Aztec mythology, that it gives credence to the Book of Mormon.

 

There is so much Egyptian theology mixed in Christianity, we can hardly speak of religious explanations without including it. And then of course we need to speak of Hellenism and the meaning of "in the beginning was the word", and the terrible conflict between Hellenist and Jews! And the role Mirthraism plays in Christian mythology.

 

Taoism, of course, goes nicely with quantum physics, and there was a tribe in Africa that had a golden chair given to their lead by God. My point is, if we are to argue about God, we really need to get beyond the Christian bible. But this is not necessary for this thread, which is about what God has to do with personal liberty and power.

 

 

I honestly don't see what you are trying to say Athena, the concept of god only decreases personal liberty and power, how can you see it any other way? And saying something about the written word of god does not mean the Christian one, lots of other religious writings, books, books even bigger than the bible so just because some one says something about the written word of god doesn't mean the holy bible...

[Tres Juicy]

What about Jews? Their stay in Babylon and what they share with Zoroastrianism is interesting. We really don't know how separate Zoroastrianism is from the ideas originating in India, but we can know before Zoroastrianism was over come by superstition, Cyrus freed the Jews and ordered that Peria would rebuild their temple. We can know that the Hebrew God of Abraham was one of many, and not so different from other gods. Making this god believable to people in the day. In fact, the Jewish knowledge of spells was so respected, their incantations can be found in Egyptian tombs.

 

What about the Aztecs who also believed they were God's chosen people. Their are so many parallels between Jewish and Aztec mythology, that it gives credence to the Book of Mormon.

 

There is so much Egyptian theology mixed in Christianity, we can hardly speak of religious explanations without including it. And then of course we need to speak of Hellenism and the meaning of "in the beginning was the word", and the terrible conflict between Hellenist and Jews! And the role Mirthraism plays in Christian mythology.

 

Taoism, of course, goes nicely with quantum physics, and there was a tribe in Africa that had a golden chair given to their lead by God. My point is, if we are to argue about God, we really need to get beyond the Christian bible. But this is not necessary for this thread, which is about what God has to do with personal liberty and power.

 

Thats not what I meant - The Jews were persecuted (at least in part) beacuse of their religion, you said:

 

This is the importance of answering to God, instead of man. It prevents or stops things like witch hunts and the persecution of Jews, and I hope, the persecution of the homeless, and destruction of our liberty.

 

Which is not true

[Moontanman]

Thats not what I meant - The Jews were persecuted (at least in part) beacuse of their religion, you said:

 

 

 

Which is not true

 

 

You are correct and your point is a very serious one, once you say god told me to do it anything becomes ok, the concept of god can be used to justify absolutely anything....

[Tres Juicy]

You are correct and your point is a very serious one, once you say god told me to do it anything becomes ok, the concept of god can be used to justify absolutely anything....

 

Religious belief has caused more war than any other singe cause

 

Look at the crusades, a bunch of christians, believing that they were fully justified by god, marched into eastern europe to kill anyone who would not convert to christianity

[Athena]

Because the written word of god or gods is all we have, other than crazies who hear voices. Athena, do you understand that the government is what stopped things like witch burning? yes at the time religion was seen as the government, only when secular government gelded religion did such things stop. Hitler was very religious and thought he was doing gods will. you seem to have the idea that god can be what ever you want him to be and maybe for individuals that can be true but no one not even the ancient Greeks thought that way, they all owed allegiance to corporeal gods. Once the idea of god as a higher power comes into play then who decides what his will is? Who decides what god sees as moral? Does god stop by and say "oh by the way that witch burning thing has to stop" No... humans had to stop it, secular humans who did not believe that god had the authority to demand such immoral acts.

 

Your moral indignation at what is happening to your friend is not based in gods morals, it's is based on your morals, morals you have accumulated over time from being exposed to our culture. if you had been a part of a different culture then throwing babies into volcanoes would seem moral to you. Morals do not come from god, they come from us, and yes some people are psychopaths, but most people take on the morals of their society...

 

The concept of god is a very dangerous thing because it allows people to justify anything..... Just say god told me to do it and you are scott free....

 

 

We have our own reason, and do not have to rely on the written word of another. And in fact, we should not rely on the written word of another.

 

Unfortunately, I am out of time, but Cicero's reasoning is perhaps the most important reasoning to me, and you are so wrong to believe my concept of morals is separate from my understanding of God, and cause and effect, or science if you like. Cicero explains this best.

 

http://thriceholy.net/Texts/Cicero.html

 

I repeat, conscience is what comes out of knowledge, our awareness of what is. We can not know God, but we can become of aware of what is and infer something about God. Ultimately, the authority is our own individual authority, not another human, or anything another human might write. Understanding this is understanding liberty.

 

This is awareness of much more than myself and the present moment. It is includes awareness of cause and effect, past and future. If I do wrong, my great grandchildren will suffer. If I do right, maybe my great grandchildren will enjoy the benefits democracy, instead of the tyranny of which Tocqueville wrote.

[Moontanman]

We have our own reason, and do not have to rely on the written word of another. And in fact, we should not rely on the written word of another.

 

Unfortunately, I am out of time, but Cicero's reasoning is perhaps the most important reasoning to me, and you are so wrong to believe my concept of morals is separate from my understanding of God, and cause and effect, or science if you like. Cicero explains this best.

 

http://thriceholy.net/Texts/Cicero.html

 

I repeat, conscience is what comes out of knowledge, our awareness of what is. We can not know God, but we can become of aware of what is and infer something about God. Ultimately, the authority is our own individual authority, not another human, or anything another human might write. Understanding this is understanding liberty.

 

This is awareness of much more than myself and the present moment. It is includes awareness of cause and effect, past and future. If I do wrong, my great grandchildren will suffer. If I do right, maybe my great grandchildren will enjoy the benefits democracy, instead of the tyranny of which Tocqueville wrote.

 

 

That has nothing to do with god, is is society and culture you are talking about not god.... We need to define the concept of god, i really don't think we have the same thing in mind which is the reason why the concept of god is so dangerous to personal freedom and liberty, secular governments gave us freedom and liberty, not religion or god...

[Tres Juicy]

That has nothing to do with god, is is society and culture you are talking about not god.... We need to define the concept of god, i really don't think we have the same thing in mind which is the reason why the concept of god is so dangerous to personal freedom and liberty, secular governments gave us freedom and liberty, not religion or god...

 

It becomes difficult to have a conversation about god, if you can't use the bible (or other "holy" books) as a reference.

 

You (Athena) seem at times to be talking about your own personal god, of which we can have no prior knowledge.