Speculations

[michel123456]

I said that before (bis repetita placent) about a year ago.

To me this site is well moderated.

The problem with the speculation forum is its location, down into the abyss, outside of science, next to the malodorous waste basket.

 

Eventually, one could consider another way to handle speculations. Moderators could put a banner on the thread, reading "WARNING, SPECULATION" without even removing the thread from its original location. So a speculation about DNA structure would remain under Biology, and a speculation about how Einstein was wrong would remain under Relativity.

The banner could even differ and go from "warning this thread is slightly speculative" from "DANGER, COMPLETE CRAP" under appreciation from the Mods.

Edited February 11, 2012 by michel123456

[Tres Juicy]

"DANGER, COMPLETE CRAP"

 

I think there are certain people who should have this forceably inserted into their signature

[michel123456]

I think there are certain people who should have this forceably inserted into their signature

Certainly not.

[StringJunky]

Yes this helps define the discussion, thanks

 

yes some of my posts are presented in an undisciplined way. But just they articulate manner this thread is being discussed convinces me, the administration here is committed to the true nature of these very ranging topics. Now i wanted to say that the true value of a society is its capacity to be inclusive. ya ya ya but im not doing the intellectual maintainence here. Pretty good site you have here gentlemen and ladies. i can say that making it easy for status quo is not my talent. I am thinking about creating an agenda of experiments that i would like to offer for review here. I now actual feel comfortable enough here to do that. thanks for your responses and this thread

 

i really must proof read before posting

 

It's good that you are seeing the various positive qualities of this forum and hopefully over time, as I did, why things are the way they are here but even then it is constantly evolving with each new insight gleaned from discussions like these. It is the very nature of the Speculations forum to have threads that are mostly failures in terms of scientific validity and people shouldn't feel dispirited when their thread is put there because it is important in terms of SFN properly disseminating the established scientific picture to distinguish between professional science and amateur science, otherwise, non-scientific members will end up confused as to what is properly "scientific" and what is not.

 

Quite honestly, I think people with speculative personal ideas should be at least happy that their ideas actually do have a space to go in to be aired for consideration by real and up-coming scientists...most science forums will trash them on sight. If your idea gets shot down with evidence and logic don't get upset...it's not personal....it's the nature of scientific peer review to do this clinically and dispassionately. I used to think some of the experts here were rather terse in their responses but realise eventually they are not here to nurse damaged egos. Tip: Leave your ego at home...put out your idea...take the criticism...thank the respondents for their views...post-analyse what people said. Failure is a crucial part of learning. As my grandad used to say: the man that never made a mistake never made anything.

 

Embrace your mistakes.

[homie12]

i am getting good experience on how to present my point properly thanks. and i see some same old adages. power corrupts absolute power corrupts absolutely. but you cant blame the home crowd for defending their home. so if 1 wants to function in said home he has to find a viable talent or service. im working on it boss.

[imatfaal]

i am getting good experience on how to present my point properly thanks. and i see some same old adages. power corrupts absolute power corrupts absolutely. but you cant blame the home crowd for defending their home. so if 1 wants to function in said home he has to find a viable talent or service. im working on it boss.

 

"power corrupts absolute power corrupts absolutely." So who is corrupt? Or just a slur in general?

 

"but you cant blame the home crowd for defending their home" No, but you could also acknowledge that they might be defending it for a reason other than blind clan loyalty. Perhaps because they believe in a shared concept of the importance of science, intellectual rigour, and rationalism which is common to both the forum in general and the individual members in particular.

[homie12]

"power corrupts absolute power corrupts absolutely." So who is corrupt? Or just a slur in general?

 

"but you cant blame the home crowd for defending their home" No, but you could also acknowledge that they might be defending it for a reason other than blind clan loyalty. Perhaps because they believe in a shared concept of the importance of science, intellectual rigour, and rationalism which is common to both the forum in general and the individual members in particular.

Yes you are right about that. I should list in order of importance. But I should just concentrate my point and then have everything thrown out im saying with some blanket statement or even a cheapshot. The important thing i think is what ever my idea is, it's not getting forwarded by chaotic trashing of subject matter. So as i try i will learn and thanks for your response

[Anilkumar]

. . . whether Speculations is really viable overall and if it adversely affects the scientific integrity of the forum as a whole or not.

So straight believing in accepted theories and not objecting to what one feels is inappropriate and not attempting to venture into new areas won't adversely affect Science?

 

. . . not annoying the scientists. . .

 

The prudent, do not get annoyed.

 

. . . not alienating laymen. . .

 

How kind!

 

. . . some of your speculators are crackpots who have received the full regimen of immunizations against logic and evidence. . .

 

Some of the believers of whatever comes from top, and those who consider that majority opinion is right opinion and so all further discussions be barred and the majority opinion be accepted, have also received the equal regimen of immunizations against logic and evidence.

 

 

. . . when it comes to speculative ideas, there are always going to be more bad than good. . .

 

Yes. Speculation is thus. Possibility of failure is in the very nature of speculation. It is something like trial & error. Edison failed a thousand times or so before he hit upon the right idea to make the bulb. If he was stopped and shunned away as a crackpot for the 999 failures, we would have been in darkness until the gifted person who finds the bulb in one single attempt [the so-called Real Scientist] is born.

 

----------------------* * * * ***** * * * *

 

Yeah,

The greatest pleasure in life is got; when someone nods his/her head in affirmation, to what is said to him/her.

And yeah,

The greatest pain in life is got; when trying to educate a stubborn ignorant person who hates defeat even if it comes in the form of Truth. Because she cannot recognize Truth, as she does not have the information, as to how to recognize the Truth.

An idea to get constant eternal pleasure:-

The greatest idea to keep oneself away from this pain and keep oneself in eternal pleasure; is to sit inside & lock oneself in a window-less classroom full of brain dead dummies, who know nothing but nodding in affirmation, to whatever is professed before them.

A few more options:-

 

• Ask all the governments of the world to decree and stop all speculation.
• Subject those who speculate to capital punishment.
• Declare all Speculators as Untouchables, as it was in India before the advent of the Europeans.
• Take advice from the likes of Saddam Hussein, Gaddafi, and Adolph Hitler Etc to find ways to make people quietly nod their heads to whatever is said to them, and not to oppose with their nonsense thoughts lurking inside their devilish brains & ask questions opposing established scientific theories.

But I have my doubts;

 

The urge to speculate, stems from the urge to search for Truth, from the urge to answer questions that rise in one's mind and sometimes times to create something new, to do something new, to adventure. So by stopping speculation, are we not curbing, Search, Creativity, Adventure?

 

And if all the speculators are eliminated from the face of the earth and only soldier-like highly disciplined and obedient people who are obedient and stick to schedule, rules and regulations would remain behind. And the world would become a military regiment running smoothly in machine like precision. And all the advantages that the adventurous, creative fools [i call them fools because they are ecstatic and disobedient] generate will vanish from the face of the earth.

 

And a question pops up in my devilish brain. [Thankfully Speculation is not forbidden yet]

 

People like Christopher Columbus; who wanted to go westward to India while everyone was going eastwards, William Harvey; who dissected the bodies of his father & sister and stole graves, [i won't take the sacred name of Albert Einstein who denounced the then established Ether theory, for fear of violating the sanctity of the Sanctum Sanctorum of scientific world. It is a code of silence. You are not allowed to utter the name unless you have a PhD and you have a sanction from the scientific world] belong to which group?

 

Speculators or the Regimented?

 

I have another thought;

 

The change in the world, from Stone Age to the Internet Age that has been brought about is because of Speculation and Experimentation, not because of Hitler like Regimentation.

 

Suggestion:-

 

It is the humane & prudent duty of the Expert, who himself is an accumulator of Information, to educate the reckless & adventurous Speculators who want to venture to bring unknown Information, so that they [the Speculators] bring relevant information. And then if they bring relevant information, keep it, or else discard it giving reasons, by doing which, they will run back again, till their hunger to venture to bring unknown information is satiated. Discarding without giving reasons is dictatorial.

 

Intolerance & Impatience leads to losses.

 

And then;

 

Which is the most respectable thing in the world?

 

Expertise,

 

No doubt.

But so is the attitude to challenge; because it is nothing but 'Risk appetite'.

 

Which is the most detestable thing in the world?

 

It is Pigheadedness. No doubt.

 

But so are Intolerance, Impatience and despotism.

A question for thought

What are the uses of Expertise?

 

[Hint: I feel the purpose of becoming knowledgeable is to impart knowledge, and not to lock oneself inside a Sanctum sanctorum of restrictive rules & regulations.]

 

I feel Intolerance, Impatience, Derision and Despotism have already made the Speculations section too strict for the Speculators to speak their minds.

 

Knowledge becomes useful only when it is accompanied by Patience, Tolerance, be it the Expert or the Speculator.

 

----------------------* * * * ***** * * * *

 

If one is worried about what is good for this forum, then the best thing for this forum is to stick to reasoning instead of all this talk. These are all the manifestations of the frustration due to the inability to reason.

 

I request you to recognize this person.

She is Anne Sullivan, who was an Irish-American teacher who taught the Deaf, Dumb and young [unexposed] child, Helen Keller. Anne Sullivan didn't complain. Only lesser mortals would do that. That is why she was called The Miracle Worker.

 

Teaching is a sacred profession. Teaching is a science. A teacher is a scientist who invents ways to convince the most intransigent unapproachable pupils. Good teachers make this world.

 

There is a scene in the 2001 Movie "The Mexican" where a couple whose romantic relationship gets so complicated because of the erratic behavior of the Protagonist that the female character decides to break up, though the man wants to continue. And it so happens that she finds an unlikely caring friend in the Antagonist. And during one of their friendly talks about life, the Antagonist asks the lady;

 

Antagonist: I am going to ask you a question. It is good one, so think about it.

 

The woman looks at him curiously.

 

The Antagonist continues: If two people love each other. . . . But they just can't seem to get it together . . . when do you get to that point of, enough is enough.

 

The woman: [she gives an answer that she herself considers was wrong because when the Antagonist gives the answer, she feels his was the right answer. And then when she meets her lover/Protagonist next, she puts the same question to him, and the Protagonist effortlessly gives the same answer that the Antagonist had told her, that she had considered was the right answer. Then they get on well.]

 

The Antagonist says: When two people love each other . . . totally . . . truthfully, all the way love each other . . . the answer to that question is simple. . . . When do you get to that point, where enough is enough? . . . . the answer is . . . never.

 

I wonder, if to get the total sensation of the gravity of the above scene, one must be in love?

 

Teaching is not an easy task. Mere accumulation of correct information does not make good teachers. One needs the humane qualities of tolerance, patience and affection. To the one who truly is desirous to teach, to educate others, the complicated erratic behavior of the pupil NEVER gets to that point of enough is enough.

One must recognize the fact that the THING that brings us to the point of enough is enough is nothing but INTOLERANCE. That is the test of the limit of the ability, to remain humane.

 

Once in a while when a person becomes so humane that her TOLERANCE becomes TOTAL, beings like Jesus, Buddha, Mahaveera . . . are created.

 

Un-useful beings, who want to wield the power of their possessions to command respect, obedience and achieve pride, are created daily.

 

What do we do when it becomes difficult to convince our child? Throw her out? Lock her up in a room? Tape her mouth?

 

Science is gathering of Knowledge by Speculating and Experimenting. Science is not simply acquiring that gathered Knowledge. Acquisition of Knowledge to make it available wherever necessary is Utility of Science for sustenance of Science & Life.

 

Truth has not appointed anybody as its saviors, because Truth is self-sustaining, self-evident and can't be destroyed. The only thing we can do is struggle to see it in the eye. We are all children of Truth. You can experiment with it however, you want, as long as you are willing to discuss before deciding. All those who behave, as the guardians of Truth, are the despotic, who want to make Truth their sole property and them its Masters. If one understands Truth better than the other, it becomes one's duty as the child of Truth, to help the other, to understand our mother better. The existence of this Forum is a proof that, there are more number of the children of Truth, who understand the necessity to spread Truth, than the despots who want to own Truth.

 

It is rightly said, Truth is God. And God needs no guardians of protection. At the most, we can be messengers.

 

But it is part of life that, history has had its share of authoritarian priests and their bunch of sycophants. It is another story that those priests and the yes-men lost their ground, as humanity evolved. New kinds of priests will be born, and they will lose their ground too, as we evolve.

Edited August 24, 2012 by Anilkumar

[swansont]

The greatest pain in life is got; when trying to educate a stubborn ignorant person who hates defeat even if it comes in the form of Truth. Because she cannot recognize Truth, as she does not have the information, as to how to recognize the Truth.

An idea to get constant eternal pleasure:-

The greatest idea to keep oneself away from this pain and keep oneself in eternal pleasure; is to sit inside & lock oneself in a window-less classroom full of brain dead dummies, who know nothing but nodding in affirmation, to whatever is professed before them.

A few more options:-

 

• Ask all the governments of the world to decree and stop all speculation.
• Subject those who speculate to capital punishment.
• Declare all Speculators as Untouchables, as it was in India before the advent of the Europeans.
• Take advice from the likes of Saddam Hussein, Gaddafi, and Adolph Hitler Etc to find ways to make people quietly nod their heads to whatever is said to them, and not to oppose with their nonsense thoughts lurking inside their devilish brains & ask questions opposing established scientific theories.

But I have my doubts;

 

The urge to speculate, stems from the urge to search for Truth, from the urge to answer questions that rise in one's mind and sometimes times to create something new, to do something new, to adventure. So by stopping speculation, are we not curbing, Search, Creativity, Adventure?

Your point? (this applies to the whole post, really)

 

Who is stopping speculation?

[studiot]

Suppose we were to be more thorough in moving speculations to the correct section, and made our policy on banning crackpots stricter, so we didn't have 20+ page pointless topics in Speculations.

 

Posting would decrease, but no great loss -- losing low-quality posts isn't exactly a terrible problem. But how do we attract science discussion to fill its place? I don't think SFN currently provides enough active, interesting, non-crackpot discussions on real science topics (rather than simple homework questions or discussions of philosophy or religion). I would desperately like it to.

 

Removing crackpottery (or at least making it less visible, so it doesn't "corrupt" the rest of the forum) would be a step in this direction. But I'd like to figure out what to do next.

 

I have not seen this thread before and this reply is addressed particularly towards the good captain.

 

I am pretty new here so perhaps you would like to consider my experiences as help towards addressing the membership issues you raise.

 

My first degree was applied maths followed by further postgraduate engineering qualifications and a lifetime's experience of applying my maths.

My intention was partly to chew the cud with like minded souls, but mainly to pass some on experience and help others, certainly I have a few threads of this nature.

However looking back over threads I have entered I see that more often than not they have ended up in the speculations arena.

 

I have only asked for help with the system once and received a bloody nose, from your establishment (who I have praised and defended eslewhere) for asking.

 

Needless to say I did not pursue that thread further.

 

I am still struggling with some aspects of operating ScienceForums.

 

So a couple of weeks ago I started a thread which received little interest. I lost contact with that thread, but a recent personal message has caused me to hunt it out. Whereupon I discovered there were some replies I missed.

 

The point of this is that in all other forums I have been on there is a simple and obvious way to organise and track threads I am following so that I know when there is an addition (I don't mean email).

If such a facility exists at SF I have not uncovered it and I consider this a serious inconvenience.

 

go well

Edited August 25, 2012 by studiot

[swansont]

The point of this is that in all other forums I have been on there is a simple and obvious way to organise and track threads I am following so that I know when there is an addition (I don't mean email).

If such a facility exists at SF I have not uncovered it and I consider this a serious inconvenience.

In Settings/Notification Options you can toggle the inline notifications, which give you a list of whatever you've selected when you're on the main page, or in the dropdown menu in the upper right corner.

[Cap'n Refsmmat]

There is also a "Watch Topic" button at the top right of each thread. In the notification options you can choose how to be notified whenever a watched topic is updated.

[studiot]

Aye Aye Cap'n.

 

I see the watch topic button and it takes me to an options list.

I must have used it once and got it right because I see I have one 'watched topic'

 

However this is the first time I have since located this list.

 

Further I see no button to find my watched topics when I log on and it is not in the drop down list under my singin at the top right or in settings.

 

Yes if I could only use this facility...

 

Edit I also don't see on the settings how to add topics posted in automatically, as happens in other forums.

 

sigh.

Edited August 25, 2012 by studiot

[Cap'n Refsmmat]

There's a "Watch every topic I reply to" setting in your Notification Options.

 

There's not a convenient way to view all your watched topics that I know of (it's buried in the settings), but if you set watched topics to provide inline notifications, then new posts in your watched topics will appear in the notifications drop-down at the top right of every page.

[Anilkumar]

Your point? (this applies to the whole post, really)

 

Who is stopping speculation?

 

 

 

Intolerance, Contempt, Derision, and also the Biased & Un-scientific attitude of Disregarding opinions that bring up genuine inconsistencies in established theories is some of them.

 

 

[proximity1]

You have to accept a lot of bad with your good in most things, and when it comes to speculative ideas, there are always going to be more bad than good. Do you know how many television and movie scripts are written as opposed to those that actually get shot and shown to the public? Science is the same way, with more failures than successes. Many human endeavors have more failures than successes.

 

I don't see how we can promote learning and the exchange of ideas if every Speculations thread gets shot down in the first few posts. As others have said, even the worst ideas proposed here are a learning experience for someone. I agree that crackpots are everywhere, but you have to treat each instance separately. For those who might just learn something by having their idea scrutinized by the membership, nothing is worse than being shut down in an offhand manner.

 

I think the real problem we're taking about here is when an idea is wrong based on lack of education but the poster is convinced they can bypass the study because their idea just "feels" right. Then we come up against the "you're too hidebound", "you reject everything that isn't mainstream", "you refuse to think outside the box" retorts, and they're not wrong in principle, though they usually are in fact.

 

Perhaps we need a more reciprocal relationship with posters in Speculations. Whenever we sense someone trying to do an "educational bypass", we should be able to explain that we're taking the time to read the hypothesis and review it, and we must insist that the poster reciprocate by taking some time to read relevant material to help explain the review. To me, this is the distinction between the person who thinks they have a great idea and the crackpot: the crackpot has already rejected certain studies (usually maths) and refuses to go back and learn the material.

 

Those are some very good points---and they call to mind for me a guy by the name of Richard Feynman who struck very, very many people as a particularly odd thinker with an enormous bent for the odd idea.

[swansont]

Those are some very good points---and they call to mind for me a guy by the name of Richard Feynman who struck very, very many people as a particularly odd thinker with an enormous bent for the odd idea.

Feynman doesn't fit the mold of someone who has rejected either the maths or other aspects of science, or who needed to learn the fundamentals. I'd also wager that Feynman shot down a lot of his own ideas by applying rigor to the problem and seeing if it held up, instead of parading half-baked ideas around and insisting he was right and refusing to listen to criticism.

[frankglennjacobs@gmail.com]

From the dawn of time, every idea has started out as a speculation.

 

(Anyone remember the old-time BC comic strip where cave-men were speculating that the moon was a hole in the sky?)

 

I hereby officially speculate that 99% of all starter-ideas are malarkey.

 

However, that leaves 1% that develop beyond wild guesses into hypotheses and then theories.

 

The 99% left behind were either plausible, somewhat educational -- or maybe just plain fun.

 

Sir Isaac Newton speculated that the apple fell because the earth pulled it. SEE what developed from that speculation!

 

(And SEE what education y'all have given me correcting my speculations in here!)

[Mordred]

Speculations is a good scientific approach but it is only useful if one doesn't ignore data that may contradict a speculative theory.

I myself often speculate and develop models. Its something I have done for years. A good model is one that examines the competing models to their own.

This is often where speculations fail, far too many ignore any models, evidence and data that their personal speculations cannot account for or competes with their preconceptions.

With physics in particular a vital stage is the mathematics. A good model can make predictions that can be used to test the model. This is a vital stage.

Lacking the basic physics knowledge and not knowing how the models work with the mathematics won't get anywhere.

You mentioned Newton are you aware he is attributed the honor of being one of the forefathers of Calculus? The other being Gottfried Leibniz.

 

I mentioned my own speculative models, I never need to post them as I learned how to test them myself with the mathematics. Which is why I never posted any of my own speculations. I am familiar enough with the existing theories and mathematics that I can research and test my own models without outside help.

 

I would call that a handy advantage. Wouldn't you? Unfortunately it takes years of study to gain that key advantage.

 

PS this is what the speculation forum tries to enforce. Proper methodology when developing a speculative model.

 

Though I lost count how many times, I wish I wasn't so effective of proving my own models wrong lol. Though as mentioned before that's just me lol.

 

As far as the Poll goes this forum gives a lot of leniance in the hopes the OP and others learn from the discussion.

Edited June 2, 2017 by Mordred