1=1 Posted January 29, 2012 Posted January 29, 2012 (edited) There has been something that has been bothering me for an hour or so now. The bible says that god is all powerful, but when I ask Christians why god doesn't do anything to help the people in suffering they say its because it was humanity choice and act of free will that led them into it. If god is all powerful than why doesn't he help these people, It doesn't matter whether they did it to themselves, if he is truly great he should forgive them and help them. Can someone clear this up for me? EDIT: I am an Atheist. Edited January 29, 2012 by 1=1 1
iNow Posted January 29, 2012 Posted January 29, 2012 Yes. God probably doesn't exist, so you should stop worrying and go enjoy your life. These faith based beliefs are full of contradictions, and are not really worthy of any intelligent persons time. What you describe is known as "the problem of evil," and it has been a problem for believers in the abrahamic god for a very long time. If god is all loving, why is there evil? If god is all powerful, why doesn't he prevent suffering? The most likely explanation is that he simply doesn't exist, and was invented by humans through the centuries as a way to feel more comfortable with parts of the world they don't understand. http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/nontheism/atheism/evil.html In case you're curious about the contradictions I mentioned, there's also this: http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/contra/by_name.html Like I said, you're essentially trying to find logical consistency in a childish fairy tale. Don't worry about how santa claus makes it to every childs house in one night, or how he enters the home when there is no chimney, or how his reindeer fly and don't collapse the roofs on houses... santa is not real, and almost certainly neither is god. It's okay. We can still be good people with loving lives even if we discard the idea of a magic sky dictator who convicts us of thought crimes. 1
ajb Posted January 29, 2012 Posted January 29, 2012 There has been something that has been bothering me for an hour or so now. This question will both you for the rest of your life. Under the assertion that God exists, I cannot see that we can ever understand this. Rather, we could take this as evidence that God does not exists, or at least in the usual Abrahamic sense.
StringJunky Posted January 29, 2012 Posted January 29, 2012 God cannot endow creatures with freewill and then interfere with their behaviour....that's an oxymoron.
Appolinaria Posted January 29, 2012 Posted January 29, 2012 (edited) Maybe the reasoning is beyond our comprehension. For example (I don't have a dog); My dog wants to run around freely and leash-less, but I keep her on it so she doesn't get flattened by a car... even though she hates being on the leash it's for her best interest. But I can't communicate that to her. She probably just thinks I'm evil. Edited January 29, 2012 by Appolinaria
John Cuthber Posted January 29, 2012 Posted January 29, 2012 Maybe the reasoning is beyond our comprehension. For example (I don't have a dog); My dog wants to run around freely and leash-less, but I keep her on it so she doesn't get flattened by a car... even though she hates being on the leash it's for her best interest. But I can't communicate that to her. She probably just thinks I'm evil. It would be cruel to knowingly create a dog with those characteristics.
Appolinaria Posted January 29, 2012 Posted January 29, 2012 It would be cruel to knowingly create a dog with those characteristics. Well maybe the universe is inherently sadistic and cruel, I don't have the answers.
John Cuthber Posted January 29, 2012 Posted January 29, 2012 That would be proof of the lack of a beneficent God.
Appolinaria Posted January 29, 2012 Posted January 29, 2012 But I don't really care what the universe's intentions are, we can change our reality and make life as comfortable as we can for everyone.
tahmid5 Posted January 29, 2012 Posted January 29, 2012 God is more truly imagined than expressed, and He exists more truly than He is imagined. I guess, we do not have the best technology yet to track Him.
John Cuthber Posted January 29, 2012 Posted January 29, 2012 God is more truly imagined than expressed, and He exists more truly than He is imagined. I guess, we do not have the best technology yet to track Him. Or he doesn't exist or just a figment of your imagination.
Tres Juicy Posted January 29, 2012 Posted January 29, 2012 Or he's just a sadistic dick an enjoys watching you suffer?
1=1 Posted January 29, 2012 Author Posted January 29, 2012 Just saying I am a full fledged atheists. I had already assumed it was a flaw but decided to give the benefit of the doubt to Christianity, as i assured myself that they would have thought of something better to explain this fallacy. I was wrong.
Phi for All Posted January 30, 2012 Posted January 30, 2012 The whole omnipotence thing never made sense to me. If God created everything, did He do it using the laws of physics or can he just throw those laws out the window because He's omnipotent? If he can transcend His own physical laws, then you can't trust anything you observe. If you can't trust what you observe, why did God give us senses to observe with? It never bothered me that a supposedly caring and compassionate god would allow suffering. Humans don't appreciate things as much if they don't have to struggle for them. And why should a god that gives you life and free will also have to intervene every time you might suffer? We have the free will and the resources to feed everyone on the planet, but we choose not to and instead blame this supposedly compassionate, loving god for all the suffering. I don't think a god that is involved in our everyday lives is either meaningful or necessary. Where is free will if God keeps interfering? Most of all, I don't understand people who say "My faith is important to me, you must respect it", but won't extend the same respect to another's faith if it differs. The whole concept of "which religion is right" astounds me, since none of them have much in the way of testable supportive evidence. They all differ on some pretty major aspects, and yet they all claim to be true. And the believers never seem to grasp the point that out of all the religions there are (and there are over 9000 sects of Christianity alone), they just happened to pick the right one! Often on their very first try! How lucky to be born in country X that God obviously favors, the one country where they practice the true faith! 4
Keenidiot Posted January 30, 2012 Posted January 30, 2012 The idea of omnipotence would seem to call the entire myth of the garden of Eden into question. As well as the idea of him being benevolent, when he apparently cursed theentire human race for the sins of Adam and Eve, as well as snakes. The all powerful and all benevolent idea would cause problems when you think of the flood, with the destruction of all living species and people save those saved on the ark. Then there's the idea that God apparently created you to be the person you are, as well as bits from the Bible like Him "hardening the Pharaoh's heart," would seem to be something only there when someone needs it to be. 1
Edtharan Posted January 30, 2012 Posted January 30, 2012 Interfering in free will is not outside the actions that God could take (there are examples all through the bible), so this is not a problem. Also, God being All powerful means that no action is beyond Him. This means that even though we could not understand how God could do it, He could, none the less, do it. Further more, God could have created the universe in such a way that suffering was impossible, then He would not have to intervene and violate free will at all. The only conclusion is that if there is suffering in the universe, then one of 4 things must be true: 1) God is not all powerful 2) God is not Good 3) God does not care about us 4) God does not exist If any of these things are true, then this means that God, as described by the bible can not exist (as the bible describes the properties of god as being all powerful, good, that he loves us - oh and that He exists). What this means is that God as described by the bible can not exist when there is a universe that has suffering in it, whatever the cause (even with free will).
Phi for All Posted January 30, 2012 Posted January 30, 2012 Also, God being All powerful means that no action is beyond Him. This means that even though we could not understand how God could do it, He could, none the less, do it. To me, omnipotence is more than just being able to do something beyond our understanding. God might be able to do many things that we couldn't explain but still were within the bounds of the physical world. But being ALL-powerful means God could ignore physics entirely, make a boot travel faster than light or stop time itself. He could cause objects to fall at different rates of acceleration without using any other force. And I think that would make much of what we observe completely useless. And yet we know it's not, since we don't find glaring violations of physics all the time.
StringJunky Posted January 30, 2012 Posted January 30, 2012 (edited) And I think that would make much of what we observe completely useless. And yet we know it's not, since we don't find glaring violations of physics all the time. God let's you see what he wants you to see...that's part and parcel of omnipotence. Ya buggered, he's holding all the aces. You need a spell in The Total Perspective Vortex just see what an insignificant and impotent little organism you are. Edited January 30, 2012 by StringJunky
jryan Posted January 30, 2012 Posted January 30, 2012 How many different ways can the same question be asked? There are critical flaws in the reasoning that "Evil Exists, therefor God doesn't". In fact, apart from my previously stated argument that such a proof is circular (you have to not believe in God for the proof to prove there is no God), there is the big leap in the formulation of the proof from the "Why doesn't God..." opener to "He should, and therefor..." closer. While the first question is valid (though unknowable), the final and crucial step doesn't flow from the first because it requires the assumption that we can know the infinite and how it should behave. There is no contradiction.
iNow Posted January 30, 2012 Posted January 30, 2012 How many different ways can the same question be asked? There are critical flaws in the reasoning that "Evil Exists, therefor God doesn't". Except, that's not the argument being made. You are either intentionally misrepresenting it and arguing against that misrepresentation, or you don't understand it. 2
John Cuthber Posted January 30, 2012 Posted January 30, 2012 One of God's defining characteristics, according to the Bible, is omnipotence. The problem with this is that omnipotence can't exist.* Therefore the God of the Bible does not exist. *It's the old problem of God setting Himself a goal He can't reach. If He can't set it He's not omnipotent, If He can't reach it He's not omnipotent. Either way He fails at something.
zapatos Posted January 30, 2012 Posted January 30, 2012 One of God's defining characteristics, according to the Bible, is omnipotence. The problem with this is that omnipotence can't exist.* Therefore the God of the Bible does not exist. *It's the old problem of God setting Himself a goal He can't reach. If He can't set it He's not omnipotent, If He can't reach it He's not omnipotent. Either way He fails at something. Reminds me of the problem with walking from point A to point B. You always have to first make it to the halfway point, and since you can divide in half forever, you will never reach point B.
John Cuthber Posted January 30, 2012 Posted January 30, 2012 Reminds me of the problem with walking from point A to point B. You always have to first make it to the halfway point, and since you can divide in half forever, you will never reach point B. Except that's not really true because the sum of the series is plainly finite- but the logical problem with God's omnipotence is real.
jryan Posted January 30, 2012 Posted January 30, 2012 Except, that's not the argument being made. You are either intentionally misrepresenting it and arguing against that misrepresentation, or you don't understand it. I understand it perfectly well. I have simply boiled it down to it's stated truth and the conclusion it attempts to draw from it. There is no need to rehash all the various steps in the proof when simply referencing it. But if you think I misunderstand it then feel free to show how well you understand it by address my counterargument at some point detailing where I got the proof wrong. Cutting and pasting the link doesn't really show that you understand what the link includes. One of God's defining characteristics, according to the Bible, is omnipotence. The problem with this is that omnipotence can't exist.* Therefore the God of the Bible does not exist. *It's the old problem of God setting Himself a goal He can't reach. If He can't set it He's not omnipotent, If He can't reach it He's not omnipotent. Either way He fails at something. This too is a false argument as it could be used to argue that infinity doesn't exist because you can't add one to it and get a bigger number.
Phi for All Posted January 31, 2012 Posted January 31, 2012 This too is a false argument as it could be used to argue that infinity doesn't exist because you can't add one to it and get a bigger number. This doesn't make sense to me. Infinity is not a specific number to be added to or subtracted from, it's a concept. And I don't see how the omnipotence argument could be used in that situation. But if God is omnipotent, can He make a rock so big He can't lift it? This is a pretty plain test of omnipotence. If you can do anything, you should be able to make any size rock AND lift any weight.
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