The power of God.

[Dovada]

You are caught so far within and so deeply inside your "god-fog" ... so wrapped in your delusion... so warped by your scripture that you fail to realize just how painfully hypocritical, baseless, and unfounded your position truly is... How the fact that your ideas are being challenged is NOT equivalent to way that people and their families are facing physical harm merely for not accepting the same fairy tales as you.

And this is not a personal attack?

[iNow]

So much for Matthew 5:39.

 

... and Matthew 6:14.

 

... and Luke 6:37.

 

I promise you, were your arguments meritorious... and were your evidence something more than your personal faith and an internally inconsistent and self-contradictory anthology written during the bronze age... that you would not be facing the challenge and lack of deference you are here now experiencing. Were you to present something of substance... Were you to offer evidence, or logic, and reason in support of your points... Were you to do ANY of this your ideas would not be so consistently and summarily dismissed. Your posts have NONE of those things, though.

[Dovada]

So much for Matthew 5:39.

 

... and Matthew 6:14.

 

... and Luke 6:37.

Then why do you Judge and not forgive, Yet you associate me with linking to the conduct of others that have nothing to do with me.

If you want to speak of attack, let's refer to the numerous examples of hatred and scorn shown by believers toward nonbelievers through the centuries. Let us take a moment to review the deaths and violence which has been visited upon non-theists by those who claim some connection to some god. Let us look today at how nonbelievers are dismissed out of hand and rejected and ostracized more than any other group... Let us look at how ideology is so often given priority over facts, and how those who choose to believe something different or who choose to believe in no deities at all are characterized as evil and despicable and loathsome.

Your behavior is extremely questionable, totally unwilling to open discussion. You are opinionated to the point where as is written "seeing they do not see, and hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand".

[iNow]

Then why do you Judge and not forgive

Because, as I very plainly stated earlier in this exchange, I do not accept your book of fairy tales as unassailable truth like you do. I understand also that you don't like how blunt I am, and I stipulate that I have no patience for either your style or your approach. Let me remind you that you are free to leave and cease from participating in these discussions at any time if you continue to dislike the experience and the reception you receive.

[Moontanman]

Then why do you Judge and not forgive, Yet you associate me with linking to the conduct of others that have nothing to do with me.

 

Your religion is responsible, you support the agenda of your religion, evidently from what you've said so far with no question what so ever.

 

Your behavior is extremely questionable, totally unwilling to open discussion. You are opinionated to the point where as is written "seeing they do not see, and hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand".

 

 

I am awed by your inability to see your own arguments flaws and your willingness to project those flaws onto your opponent, i mean you are awesome in that degree, you do nothing but show your unwillingness to discuss anything but your own totally unsupported views, you assume we are ignorant of the truth, you assume we haven't even tried to understand religion, you assume we are somehow flawed in our thinking and then spout nothing but horse feathers in support of your own views, i stand in awe of your own willful ignorance...

 

I have no problem with those that choose to believe, it's the assertion that what you believe is the truth, a truth so evident that in your mind it supports it's self with no evidence other than it's self what so ever. It is so intellectually dishonest to assert this truth in this manner that you claim it stuns me...

 

Believe if you must, if you need, if it feels right for you, then have at it, but to assert that what you believe is the truth with no supporting evidence as adamantly as you have is... dishonest doesn't really cover it... but coming to a science forum and proclaiming your beliefs as the truth in this manner is... delusional is the kindest word I can really think of.

[1=1]

You presume a lot: I came with knowledge I wished to discuss and share. To convert you is not what I came here to do.

 

This thread is about a question asked by 1=1:

 

My answer also comes as a question to 1=1: If you where God and gave life to the children of the world, then discovered some of those children where disobedient denying that you ever existed and that you where just a mythical entity. Would you help them or would you only help those who believed in the existence of your spirit.

 

Many of you have children, who has a child who would say to their parent what can I do for you? You would move heaven and earth for that child. So it is with God the Father for those that believe in Him, whether you yourself believe this or not.

 

Even none believers cry out with there last breath saying "God help me", but why should He?

 

In the wisdom of his bible in Mark 3 verses 28-29 He implies:

28. "Assuredly, I say to you, all sins will be forgiven the sons of men, and whatever blasphemies they may utter;

29. "but he who blasphemes against the Holy Spirit never has forgiveness, but is subject to eternal condemnation''

 

And for those who do not believe he said in Mathew 13 verse 13 where He states: "Therefore I speak to them in parables, because seeing they do not see, and hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand.

 

The decision to believe or not is both personal and individual. Believers say one thing and non believers say another, in the final analysis its up to you the individual.

 

2Timothy 3 verses 16-17:

16. All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness,

17. that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.

 

Healthy discussion is good for all, but many comments and statements that appear on these threads are not, these include overlooked personal attacks on myself because of my beliefs. Yet I am the one being reprimanded.

I would like to reply to your question. If I was god, in my personal preference, I would make the world fair and loving. I know this would deduct a bit of meaning from life, but it would be worth it. Also, if people did not believe I existed, I would show myself to them and speak to them, not make it exceedingly hard to find me and punish people for favouring the more likely possibility of me existing. I might even favour those people, as the people that believed in me for no reliable evidential reasons would be acting illogically. I think it would be mildly sadistic to set up the world likes this anyway, if I was omnipotent.

[Tres Juicy]

 

Go ahead. Do it. You won't succeed. No one will believe it. It is not true, and is complete wrong.

 

 

Who says it's not true?

 

My book would have just as much chance as the bible in 2000 years

[John Cuthber]

"If you where God and gave life to the children of the world, then discovered some of those children where disobedient denying that you ever existed "

If I were, and I "discovered" anything then I would have to accept that I wasn't omniscient (or I would have seen it coming and done something about it) and so perhaps they had a point. I would be forced to accept that I was not the God I had represented myself as.

 

Njaohnt

Now you realise that it's absurd to believe Tres Juicy's book, do you understand why we don't believe yours?

 

If Tres Juicy wrote a book and claimed it was the word of God, it would be absurd if anyone believed it.

If I wrote a book and claimed it was the word of God, it would be absurd if anyone believed it.

If the council of Nicaea wrote a book and claimed it was the word of God, it would be absurd if anyone believed it.

 

But you do.

Edited February 8, 2012 by John Cuthber

[Dovada]

As I said before: "The decision to believe or not is both personal and individual. Believers say one thing and non believers say another, in the final analysis its up to you the individual".

 

Who of you have had communication with the Holy Spirit? Who has had questions answered by the Holy Spirit? Who has been directly helped by the Holy Spirit?

 

To him that has experienced this would you believe or receive him? No you wouldn't!

 

I would like to reply to your question. If I was god, in my personal preference, I would make the world fair and loving. I know this would deduct a bit of meaning from life, but it would be worth it. Also, if people did not believe I existed, I would show myself to them and speak to them, not make it exceedingly hard to find me and punish people for favouring the more likely possibility of me existing. I might even favour those people, as the people that believed in me for no reliable evidential reasons would be acting illogically. I think it would be mildly sadistic to set up the world likes this anyway, if I was omnipotent.

God sent his perfected Son Jesus Christ. What more could he have done? The life force is the Holy Spirit. Jesus Christ was filled with the Holy Spirit which is the living God. Many did not believe this then and many do not believe this today.

 

What would you have God do to prove he exists? Breath life into your newborn children? Feed you everyday? Give you a wonderful planet to live on? Give you light and warmth from the sun? Please name it?

 

You claim to be able to reason, you claim to be intelligent human beings, please give credit where credit is due.

 

Ecclesiastes 3 verse 1: To everything there is a season, a time for every purpose under heaven:

[1=1]

As I said before: "The decision to believe or not is both personal and individual. Believers say one thing and non believers say another, in the final analysis its up to you the individual".

 

Who of you have had communication with the Holy Spirit? Who has had questions answered by the Holy Spirit? Who has been directly helped by the Holy Spirit?

 

To him that has experienced this would you believe or receive him? No you wouldn't!

 

 

God sent his perfected Son Jesus Christ. What more could he have done? The life force is the Holy Spirit. Jesus Christ was filled with the Holy Spirit which is the living God. Many did not believe this then and many do not believe this today.

 

What would you have God do to prove he exists? Breath life into your newborn children? Feed you everyday? Give you a wonderful planet to live on? Give you light and warmth from the sun? Please name it?

 

You claim to be able to reason, you claim to be intelligent human beings, please give credit where credit is due.

 

Ecclesiastes 3 verse 1: To everything there is a season, a time for every purpose under heaven:

 

If I was a omnipotent god, I would not send a man with his own mind and body to help all those people. I would simply make all the land bountiful and full of food, and take the aggressive behaviour from every bodies minds. Since I was all powerful.

 

And in answer to the question of what god would need to do to prove he exists is to reply to my specific and controlled request, that nothing else could interfere with.

 

And I don't understand where is should have given credit.

[Tres Juicy]

As I said before: "The decision to believe or not is both personal and individual. Believers say one thing and non believers say another, in the final analysis its up to you the individual".

 

 

What about the evidence of your own senses?

 

What about your own powers of reasoning?

 

Why would you discard so much in favour of so little?

 

You're obviously not stupid, why take the easy option?

Edited February 8, 2012 by Tres Juicy

[Dovada]

If I was a omnipotent god, I would not send a man with his own mind and body to help all those people. I would simply make all the land bountiful and full of food, and take the aggressive behaviour from every bodies minds. Since I was all powerful.

 

And in answer to the question of what god would need to do to prove he exists is to reply to my specific and controlled request, that nothing else could interfere with.

 

And I don't understand where is should have given credit.

Most of the land is already bountiful and full of food and most of the people are non aggressive except those that excessively use drugs or similar which is usually responsible for their conduct in that the steal and are actively violent when stealing, plus fanatic's or similar.

 

Is what you ask about aggressive behavior bordering on removing free speech and governing under a dictatorship. The credit fact is based on the fact, I believe he is already doing enough for us. Should we not be capable of doing something for ourselves. Maybe we need a single government for the world or some other solution?

 

What about the evidence of your own senses?

 

What about your own powers of reasoning?

 

Why would you discard so much in favour of so little?

 

You're obviously not stupid, why take the easy option?

My own senses have been touched by the Holy Spirit, I know what I know because of this.

Thank you for the compliment and believe me I haven't taken the easy option.

Edited February 8, 2012 by Dovada

[njaohnt]

Because, as I very plainly stated earlier in this exchange, I do not accept your book of fairy tales as unassailable truth like you do. I understand also that you don't like how blunt I am, and I stipulate that I have no patience for either your style or your approach. Let me remind you that you are free to leave and cease from participating in these discussions at any time if you continue to dislike the experience and the reception you receive.

 

Then you don't want to except forgiveness? You want to pay for your debts?

 

I would like to reply to your question. If I was god, in my personal preference, I would make the world fair and loving. I know this would deduct a bit of meaning from life, but it would be worth it. Also, if people did not believe I existed, I would show myself to them and speak to them, not make it exceedingly hard to find me and punish people for favouring the more likely possibility of me existing. I might even favour those people, as the people that believed in me for no reliable evidential reasons would be acting illogically. I think it would be mildly sadistic to set up the world likes this anyway, if I was omnipotent.

 

It is fair. You sin, you deserve bad things. He is not fair. He forgives a Christian's sin. Not yours.

 

Who says it's not true?

 

My book would have just as much chance as the bible in 2000 years

 

Okay, why don't you write a short paragraph about yourself as the world's creator. What can you do? What can't you do? Include a few more important facts about how you created the world.

 

I'll show you why it won't work.

 

"If you where God and gave life to the children of the world, then discovered some of those children where disobedient denying that you ever existed "

If I were, and I "discovered" anything then I would have to accept that I wasn't omniscient (or I would have seen it coming and done something about it) and so perhaps they had a point. I would be forced to accept that I was not the God I had represented myself as.

 

Njaohnt

Now you realise that it's absurd to believe Tres Juicy's book, do you understand why we don't believe yours?

 

If Tres Juicy wrote a book and claimed it was the word of God, it would be absurd if anyone believed it.

If I wrote a book and claimed it was the word of God, it would be absurd if anyone believed it.

If the council of Nicaea wrote a book and claimed it was the word of God, it would be absurd if anyone believed it.

 

But you do.

 

That's not the same. Wait for that paragraph.

[Moontanman]

Then you don't want to except forgiveness? You want to pay for your debts?

 

 

Forgiveness for what? What debt, what evidence for this debt do you have?

 

 

 

It is fair. You sin, you deserve bad things. He is not fair. He forgives a Christian's sin. Not yours.

 

One punishment for all crimes is not fair to begin with, eternal torment is cruel and the sign of a psychopathic monster not a god.

 

 

Okay, why don't you write a short paragraph about yourself as the world's creator. What can you do? What can't you do? Include a few more important facts about how you created the world.

 

I'll show you why it won't work.

 

 

What would be your evidence it wasn't true, how would you determine that?

 

Most of the land is already bountiful and full of food and most of the people are non aggressive except those that excessively use drugs or similar which is usually responsible for their conduct in that the steal and are actively violent when stealing, plus fanatic's or similar.

 

So drug use is at the heart of all our problems? Drugs cause all aggression? Fanatics are the cause? ... pot... kettle... black... Dovoda

 

Is what you ask about aggressive behavior bordering on removing free speech and governing under a dictatorship. The credit fact is based on the fact, I believe he is already doing enough for us. Should we not be capable of doing something for ourselves. Maybe we need a single government for the world or some other solution?

 

What is who doing for us? you have made the mistake of judging modern Christianity with What Christianity really is, support for slavery, burning people at the stake that didn't follow your particular flavor of Christianity much less anyone who didn't believe, secular governments have gelded the God of Christianity and we are all better off for it...

 

My own senses have been touched by the Holy Spirit, I know what I know because of this.

Thank you for the compliment and believe me I haven't taken the easy option.

 

 

Show me some evidence of this, prove you are not just delusional, you cannot make such a claim with out evidence, you have none...

[Tres Juicy]

 

Okay, why don't you write a short paragraph about yourself as the world's creator. What can you do? What can't you do? Include a few more important facts about how you created the world.

 

I'll show you why it won't work.

 

 

 

I am the creator of the universe

 

I used my magical powers to produce everything you perceive

 

Prove me wrong

[Moontanman]

I am the creator of the universe

 

I used my magical powers to produce everything you perceive

 

Prove me wrong

 

 

hmmm i can't prove you wrong, you must be the creator of the universe!!! All fall down and worship Tres Juicy!

[Tres Juicy]

hmmm i can't prove you wrong, you must be the creator of the universe!!! All fall down and worship Tres Juicy!

 

 

It's about time!!

[Moontanman]

It's about time!!

 

 

I beg forgiveness for not believing in magic...

 

 

[dimreepr]

When you take a critical view of this thread, all you can assume is that time seems to be the only variable. The teachings of Christ seems to me, to be a disconnect, between his understanding of what is needed to be happy and the language barrier (that 2000 years present) Dovoda is an example of the difference between knowledge and understanding.

 

 

[Moontanman]

As I said before: "The decision to believe or not is both personal and individual. Believers say one thing and non believers say another, in the final analysis its up to you the individual".

 

No, it's not that simple, reality is not up to the individual no matter how many times you say that it will still not be true...

 

Who of you have had communication with the Holy Spirit? Who has had questions answered by the Holy Spirit? Who has been directly helped by the Holy Spirit?

 

Can you provide some evidence for this?

 

To him that has experienced this would you believe or receive him? No you wouldn't!

 

If there was real empirical evidence i would...

 

 

God sent his perfected Son Jesus Christ.

 

Do you have any evidence to back up that assertion?

 

What more could he have done?

 

Quite a bit, simply showing himself to be real by providing some evidence would be a good first step...

 

The life force is the Holy Spirit. Jesus Christ was filled with the Holy Spirit which is the living God.

 

Can you show some evidence of this?

 

Many did not believe this then and many do not believe this today.

 

No doubt, what is your point?

 

What would you have God do to prove he exists? Breath life into your newborn children? Feed you everyday? Give you a wonderful planet to live on? Give you light and warmth from the sun? Please name it?

 

All these things are easily shown to have naturalistic causes, no god or gods are needed for these things to happen.

 

You claim to be able to reason, you claim to be intelligent human beings, please give credit where credit is due.

 

Show me the evidence, i do give credit where credit is due, reason tells me I need evidence, reality gives me the evidence i need to show everything happens due to naturalistic causes, no magic is required...

 

Ecclesiastes 3 verse 1: To everything there is a season, a time for every purpose under heaven:

 

Again you use your book as evidence of what it claims... not cool dude...

[iNow]

As I said before: <snip> Holy Spirit <snip> Holy Spirit <snip>Holy Spirit <snip> God sent his perfected Son Jesus Christ. <snip> Holy Spirit. Jesus Christ was filled with the Holy Spirit which is the living God. <snip> Ecclesiastes 3 verse 1

You do realize, right, that there is no such thing as truth by repeated assertion... And that simply repeating an invalid or unsupported claim without offering any new information or support does not suddenly make it valid?

 

 

 

There is only one Education, and it has only one goal: the freedom of the mind. Anything that needs an adjective, be it civics education, or socialist education, or Christian education, or whatever-you-like education, is not education, and it has some different goal. The very existence of modified "educations" is testimony to the fact that their proponents cannot bring about what they want in a mind that is free. An "education" that cannot do its work in a free mind, and so must "teach" by homily and precept in the service of these feelings and attitudes and beliefs rather than those, is pure and unmistakable tyranny.

~Richard Mitchell, The Underground Grammarian, September 1982

 

 

The aim of education should be to teach us rather how to think, than what to think - rather to improve our minds, so as to enable us to think for ourselves, than to load the memory with thoughts of other men.

~Bill Beattie

[Dovada]

My own senses have been touched by the Holy Spirit, I know what I know because of this.

Up until the age of about forty I used to think the Bible and God was just a crutch used by man to explain the unknown. Yes I used to be just like many of you. You could call me a disbeliever.

 

What I did not know was that the Holy Spirit (God) was preparing my mind so that it would have the ability to understand what was to be shown me. You could say my interest was aroused in certain areas of physics, I had lots of questions, I was fully trained in electronics and electromagnetism but even in this area of physics there was unknown phenomena.

 

A special interest lay in the area of gravitation, what was it? How and what was its purpose? Why did it interact with matter?

 

Well to cut a long story short, the answers came to these questions when I least expected it.

 

I was awed, shocked and so much fell into place all at once including the message behind scripture itself.

 

It was explained to me:

1: Why virtually all atomic structure was electrically neutral.

2: Why all atomic particles everywhere had almost identical characteristics.

3: What a gravitation field is and why we cannot detect its electromagnetic properties.

4: How gravity drives the cosmos.

5: That the gravitational field is related to the Holy Spirit.

 

Can you imagine how my legs buckled under me. I was gobsmacked... It changed my life, my thinking and my attitude to many things.

 

One thing that was taught me was that this knowledge is protected and the principles relating to that protection is based on the individuals ability to believe.

 

Mathew 13 verses 10-13:

10. And the disciples came and said to Him, "Why do You speak to them in parables?''

11. He answered and said to them, "Because it has been given to you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been given.

12. "For whoever has, to him more will be given, and he will have abundance; but whoever does not have, even what he has will be taken away from him.

13. "Therefore I speak to them in parables, because seeing they do not see, and hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand.

 

You asked for my proof, well you got it, whether you believe it or not. As I said before: "The decision to believe or not is both personal and individual. Believers say one thing and non believers say another, in the final analysis its up to you the individual".

[iNow]

Uhuh. You and I seem to use different definitions of the word "proof." I'll give you a little tip. It is not a good idea to conflate that term with "faith." They are not equal.

[Dovada]

Uhuh. You and I seem to use different definitions of the word "proof." I'll give you a little tip. It is not a good idea to conflate that term with "faith." They are not equal.

You asked for my proof, not yours. The decision to believe or not is both personal and individual. Maybe one day you will get yours.

[iNow]

You asked for my proof, not yours.

No, I didn't. Feel free to quote me where you think I did this if you disagree. Following that, you're welcome to your own opinion, not your own facts. The concept of proof falls squarely into the realm of facts.