Heaven or Hell

[ewmon]

My reference to happiness is an observation that if people are happy then religion becomes obsolete.

Eternal happiness has always been and will always be the universal and ultimate quest. But how do we achieve it?

 

That's why I thought you had long exposure to the conservative/KJV kind of mentality — Don't even think of looking for happiness in this life here on earth; you'll only find it afterwards in heaven.

 

Let's look at the serenity prayer from a non-religious perspective:

Change what you can, ignore what you can't change, and know one from the other.

In other words, make as much happiness where and when you can, forget about making happiness where and when you can't, and learn to distinguish between such situations.

 

Is it a free-for-all? Every man for himself? Your happiness is okay with me as long as it doesn't interfere with my happiness? People can get into some pretty freaky stuff. Is it all okay?

 

How long/hard do we try to make happiness in a situation? When do we stop? When do we give up?

 

How do we balance happiness with duties, responsibilities, obligations, etc?

 

And what do we do with the garbage constantly flowing into our lives. We bring it on ourselves, others do also — and let's not forget nature? Ignore it? Forget about it? How? When the boss chews me out at work, do I go home and kick the dog, or take it out on the wife and kids? If not, where does my unhappiness go? It's as real as anything else. It exists. So where does it go? Where do I send it? When my baby is born seriously disabled, do I give it up for adoption, put it in a state hospital, or can I kill it?

[njaohnt]

Heaven. Though you're not going, because you have done the debt of over 10 000 talents, so you can't pay that back, now can you? Believe in Him, ask for forgiveness of your debt, and your saved. (Just don't borrow any more in the future, please)

[11dees]

according to judeo-christianity thats immposible so you would go to hell and if your an atheist and one of the laws to a perfect life style of that faith is to beleive in god hence you couldnt live the life style

 

Lucky it's all crap eh?

 

actually the bible passed all archeological tests.

Edited March 2, 2012 by 11dees

[doG]

As an atheist I have a question, if I lead a “perfect” life according to the bible but refuse to believe in God would I go to heaven or hell?

Neither. You will turn to dust like all other dead and buried bodies. There is ZERO evidence that any heaven or hell exists.

[galaxysponge]

One can't simply lead a 'perfect life' without God. According to Christianity you would go to hell after you die, because not believing God means not believing in Jesus who saved us eternally. That's all you need to believe to be saved eternally. Once you believe this it all makes sense, if you trust in Him. Wether you decide this or not is your choice, I can help.

As an atheist I have a question, if I lead a "perfect" life according to the bible but refuse to believe in God would I go to heaven or hell?

 

 

[doG]

One can't simply lead a 'perfect life' without God.

I challenge you to support that. You can start with your proof that there are any gods at all.

[dimreepr]

Neither. You will turn to dust like all other dead and buried bodies. There is ZERO evidence that any heaven or hell exists.

 

 

This is way off topic. If you want to vent your spleen on the question of evidence here, http://www.scienceforums.net/topic/64226-christian-evidence/page__pid__660878__st__140#entry660878 would be more appropriate, instead of hijacking this thread.

 

 

[doG]

This is way off topic. If you want to vent your spleen on the question of evidence here, http://www.scienceforums.net/topic/64226-christian-evidence/page__pid__660878__st__140#entry660878 would be more appropriate, instead of hijacking this thread.

Directly answering the question posed by the OP with my opinion is not hijacking a thread.

[Phi for All]

This is way off topic. If you want to vent your spleen on the question of evidence here, http://www.scienceforums.net/topic/64226-christian-evidence/page__pid__660878__st__140#entry660878 would be more appropriate, instead of hijacking this thread.

 

 

If you think a post is attempting to hijack your thread, report it instead of commenting on it. You should probably go back and read the first few posts of the thread, though, because doG's response is very similar to posts you responded to with smileys.

[dimreepr]

If you think a post is attempting to hijack your thread, report it instead of commenting on it. You should probably go back and read the first few posts of the thread, though, because doG's response is very similar to posts you responded to with smileys.

 

 

Quite right my apologies Dog (bad hair day). Although, in my defence, at no point in the OP do I ask if heaven or hell exists, this point is further strengthened in my first reply. Thread hijacking is far too strong a term to use in this case, however, Dogs posts are irrelevant and do not add anything to the debate.

Edited March 3, 2012 by dimreepr

[shah_nosrat]

As an atheist I have a question, if I lead a "perfect" life according to the bible but refuse to believe in God would I go to heaven or hell?

 

 

 

Hi,

It's a very interesting question you have . First of all one has to make the observation that this physical reality is the only reality that is physical. What I mean is that if we die there is no physical place known as hell or heaven that we go to.

 

If there were, wouldn't we be able to find it!

 

Secondly the concept of heaven or hell as mentioned in many holy books is simply a state of reality: for example 2 people in the same room, can be in two different states, one can be in a joyous, peaceful and blissful state, whereas the other being in his own 'Hell' state. Which in itself can be an informal proof, as to you don't have to be in different places to experience different states.

 

Now to expand this would be to understand that: "Physical pain is left behind with the death of the physical body. The hell-fire that the soul can feel is the fire of separation, the dreadful pain of being kept away from the nearness and beauty of God. This pain is real hell and worse. So Heaven and Hell are not a matter of geography. Closeness to God is Heaven, remoteness from Him is Hell¹."

 

This simply means that as human beings, we are not creatures of the physical form, although we inhabit a physical form (This may seem contradictory). We are simply a state of consciousness and our experiences are afforded through the interplay of the mind - body - spirit.

 

Now one may ask to define what it means by the mind - body - spirit but that's a different discussion.

 

If you require proof of the existence of God an interesting read would be the book called: Love, Power, and Justice: Dynamics of Authentic Morality by William S. Hatcher, who is a Mathematician, Philosopher, and Educator. There a section in the Appendix that is: Sketch of Formalized Version of the Proof of the Existence of God.

 

Hope This helps.

 

References

¹ The Baha'i Faith: A Portrait by Sarah Zarqani - Rene.

[immortal]

Hi,

It's a very interesting question you have . First of all one has to make the observation that this physical reality is the only reality that is physical. What I mean is that if we die there is no physical place known as hell or heaven that we go to.

 

How can you say where we won't go or where we will go after we die when all that we can see is the life and death of a body? Many Christian mystics have had a trip to hell and they have seen hell, so the reality is open for the existence of heaven or hell.

 

If there were, wouldn't we be able to find it!

 

Sure, we can find it, come out of your finite senses and see the world.

 

Secondly the concept of heaven or hell as mentioned in many holy books is simply a state of reality: for example 2 people in the same room, can be in two different states, one can be in a joyous, peaceful and blissful state, whereas the other being in his own 'Hell' state. Which in itself can be an informal proof, as to you don't have to be in different places to experience different states.

 

This doesn't imply that heaven or hell do not exist as such.

 

Now to expand this would be to understand that: "Physical pain is left behind with the death of the physical body. The hell-fire that the soul can feel is the fire of separation, the dreadful pain of being kept away from the nearness and beauty of God. This pain is real hell and worse. So Heaven and Hell are not a matter of geography. Closeness to God is Heaven, remoteness from Him is Hell¹."

 

Closeness to God is not Heaven, Heaven is a place where people desire to go for pleasure and power, God doesn't embrace pleasure and pain.

 

 

 

To OP - If you ask me, I neither want to go to heaven nor I want to go to hell, I just don't care, I'm not interested in those things because those things doesn't give you immortality.

[dimreepr]

 

To OP - If you ask me, I neither want to go to heaven nor I want to go to hell, I just don't care, I'm not interested in those things because those things doesn't give you immortality.

 

 

Interesting reply, I have to ask though, what does give you immortality?

[shah_nosrat]

How can you say where we won't go or where we will go after we die when all that we can see is the life and death of a body? Many Christian mystics have had a trip to hell and they have seen hell, so the reality is open for the existence of heaven or hell.

 

I didn't mean to say that where our destination is, I just wanted to point out that heaven or hell is not a physical place. As to the point you made about the Christian mystics; that's all they are mystics, much like Sufism.

 

I never denied the existence of heaven or hell, I merely pointed out that it is not a geographical place where we can transport ourselves there physically.

 

Sure, we can find it, come out of your finite senses and see the world.

 

Well my finite senses is all I have to go on to make sense of my world and reality.

 

This doesn't imply that heaven or hell do not exist as such.

 

Once again this was my reiteration of the point I made above, Heaven or Hell is not a Physical reality.

 

Closeness to God is not Heaven, Heaven is a place where people desire to go for pleasure and power, God doesn't embrace pleasure and pain.

 

Well this is what we humans 'desire' and is our interpretation of what Heaven is.

[immortal]

Interesting reply, I have to ask though, what does give you immortality?

 

Knowing that Father and You are One gives you immortality, this is some kind of experiential knowledge, you cannot know it through a rational or an empirical way. There is no reason for why consciousness exists, the body can survive on its own, we don't have to be self aware of our bodies. That's how you cheat death not by taking some anti-oxidants.

 

 

I didn't mean to say that where our destination is, I just wanted to point out that heaven or hell is not a physical place. As to the point you made about the Christian mystics; that's all they are mystics, much like Sufism.

 

What do you mean, that's all they are mystics?

 

St . Teresa of Avila has reported that she was transported to hell.

 

http://www.mountainrunnerdoc.com/stteresaofavila.html

 

[she wrote in Chapter XXXII about her transport to hell, which occurred after all of the previous favors had been granted her. Indeed, she commented that such experiences purified her more, and were more important to her spiritual life, than all of the previous ones. It is worth noting that these experiences occurred when she was well advanced along the spiritual road. For those making psychological parallels, it is true that in that discipline as well, especially in the deep feeling therapies, that the deepest, darkest secrets lying buried in the psyche usually remain inaccessible until well into the therapeutic process:

 

"The entrance, I thought, resembled a very long, narrow passage, like a furnace, very low, dark and closely confined; the ground seemed to be full of water which looked like filthy, evil-smelling mud, and in it were many wicked-looking reptiles. At the end there was a hollow place scooped out of a wall, like a cupboard, and it was here that I found myself in close confinement. But the sight of all this was pleasant by comparison with what I felt there....My feelings, I think, could not possibly be exaggerated, nor can anyone understand them. I felt a fire within my soul the nature of which I am utterly incapable of describing. My bodily sufferings were so intolerable that, though in my life I have endured the severest sufferings of this kind....none of them is of the smallest account by comparison with what I felt then, to say nothing of the knowledge that they would be endless and never ceasing. And even these are nothing by comparison with the agony of my soul, an oppression, a suffocation and an affliction so deeply felt, and accompanied by such hopeless and distressing misery, that I cannot too forcibly describe it. To say that it is as if the soul were continually being torn from the body is very little, for that would mean that one's life was being taken by another; whereas in this case it is the soul itself that is tearing itself to pieces. The fact is that I cannot find words to describe that interior fire and that despair which is greater than the most grievous tortures and pains. I could not see who was the cause of them, but I felt, I think, as if I were being both burned and dismembered; and I repeat that the interior fire and despair are the worst things of all. In that pestilential spot, where I was quite powerless to hope for comfort, it was impossible to sit or lie, for there was no room to do so. I had been put in this place which looked like a hole in the wall, and those very walls so terrible to the sight, bore down upon me and completely stifled me. There was no light and everything was in the blackest darkness.”

 

I never denied the existence of heaven or hell, I merely pointed out that it is not a geographical place where we can transport ourselves there physically.

 

 

Well my finite senses is all I have to go on to make sense of my world and reality.

 

 

 

Once again this was my reiteration of the point I made above, Heaven or Hell is not a Physical reality.

 

But when you say that we experience heaven and hell here on earth it inidrectly implies that heaven and hell don't exist apart from earth.

 

Well this is what we humans 'desire' and is our interpretation of what Heaven is.

 

There are humans who don't desire anything and surrender themselves to Gods, they neither care if their God takes them to heaven nor they care if he takes them to hell, God hates pride, give up pride you'll cheat sinning.

[shah_nosrat]

Knowing that Father and You are One gives you immortality, this is some kind of experiential knowledge, you cannot know it through a rational or an empirical way.

 

Isn't this closeness to God! This works with faith.

 

What do you mean, that's all they are mystics?

 

St . Teresa of Avila has reported that she was transported to hell.

 

http://www.mountainr...esaofavila.html

 

Mystics by definition is: Someone who believes in realities beyond human comprehension.

 

Now a mystical experience is purely subjective.

 

What is mysticism? Mysticism is the acceptance of allegations without evidence or proof, either apart from or against the evidence of one’s senses and one’s reason. Mysticism is the claim to some non-sensory, non-rational, non-definable, non-identifiable means of knowledge, such as “instinct,” “intuition,” “revelation,” or any form of “just knowing.”

 

Reason is the perception of reality, and rests on a single axiom: the Law of Identity.

 

Mysticism is the claim to the perception of some other reality—other than the one in which we live—whose definition is only that it is not natural, it is supernatural, and is to be perceived by some form of unnatural or supernatural means.¹

 

 

 

 

But when you say that we experience heaven and hell here on earth it inidrectly implies that heaven and hell don't exist apart from earth.

 

That was merely an example I used, not to be taken literally.

 

 

There are humans who don't desire anything and surrender themselves to Gods, they neither care if their God takes them to heaven nor they care if he takes them to hell, God hates pride, give up pride you'll cheat sinning.

 

That is true that is being submissive to the will of God.

 

References:

¹ Philosophy: Who Needs It by Ayn Rand

[immortal]

Isn't this closeness to God! This works with faith.

 

 

But that doesn't take you to heaven.

 

 

Mystics by definition is: Someone who believes in realities beyond human comprehension.

 

Now a mystical experience is purely subjective.

 

That depends on which physical reality is the actual objective reality and which reality is purely subjective.

 

Bernard d'Espagnat a French theoretical physicist best known for his work on the nature of reality wrote a paper titled The Quantum Theory and Reality according to the paper: "The doctrine that the world is made up of objects whose existence is independent of human consciousness turns out to be in conflict with quantum mechanics and with facts established by experiment."[61] In an article in the Guardian titled Quantum weirdness: What we call 'reality' is just a state of mind d'Espagnat wrote that:

 

"What quantum mechanics tells us, I believe, is surprising to say the least. It tells us that the basic components of objects – the particles, electrons, quarks etc. – cannot be thought of as "self-existent". He further writes that his research in quantum physics has lead him to conclude that an "ultimate reality" exists, which is not embedded in space or time.

 

So it can go either way, the reality given by the mystics can be the actual objective ultimate reality and the reality given by modern science can be purely subjective.

[dimreepr]

 

Is it a free-for-all? Every man for himself? Your happiness is okay with me as long as it doesn't interfere with my happiness? People can get into some pretty freaky stuff. Is it all okay?

 

How long/hard do we try to make happiness in a situation? When do we stop? When do we give up?

 

How do we balance happiness with duties, responsibilities, obligations, etc?

 

And what do we do with the garbage constantly flowing into our lives. We bring it on ourselves, others do also — and let's not forget nature? Ignore it? Forget about it? How? When the boss chews me out at work, do I go home and kick the dog, or take it out on the wife and kids? If not, where does my unhappiness go? It's as real as anything else. It exists. So where does it go? Where do I send it? When my baby is born seriously disabled, do I give it up for adoption, put it in a state hospital, or can I kill it?

 

 

Expect, this is what happens when you’re pretty sure of what you’re going to get for Christmas let’s say. Disappointment is what happens when you don’t. This seemingly innocent interaction is responsible for your own un/happiness if you don’t expect something you can’t be disappointed. Simple isn’t it? No unfortunately it isn’t that easy life can make things very complicated.

 

Think about your drive into work do you expect anything? At first glance you think you probably don’t expect anything other than to get there, not unreasonably. Let us take a drive. You leave the house and walk to the car “shit forgot my keys bugger it” (You’re expecting to have them a bit miffed) you walk back to the house but of course the bloody doors locked (You’re not expecting the door to be open but still a bit more miffed) you ring the bell. No answer, you ring again “come on come on” (You are expecting the door to be opened you know your partners in, the anger’s starting now). You glance at your watch just a hint of nerves creeping in, you can’t be late not again and you’ve got a meeting with the boss. The door opens and you rush in without ceremony (your partner expects at the very least an acknowledgment so it’s not just you affected now...) and grab the car keys and run back to the car without a word. You try and start the car but it won’t “Oh for fuck sake start you bastard” (once again you expect it to start. It’s a phrase I think we’ve all uttered but your anger’s now half way to an explosion) on the fifth turn of the keys it starts and relief floods over you and you set off. Now imagine the drive in was beset with exactly the same sort of problems and there are thousands of things that could go wrong as we all know. So you arrive to work on time, phew, but now you’re nearly at the explosion point just one more thing. The boss walks over to you with a grin “What are you doing here I sent a txt an hour ago to say don’t worry the meeting’s been cancelled” and laugh’s.... BANG......SACK oops... As you can see we expect all the time. Abolish the word expect and replace it with accept simples. In all the build up we can see the word cropping up only once was your anger affected by anything other than this word and even then it was because of the word. Try using a mantra the next time somebody bugs you because they don’t, for some reason, do what you expect. Say “That’s me in a different skin” and smile, it is you after all.

[SeptemberMoon]

I say do not torture yourself over it. I died and was brought back. God does not require anything from you or any of us. We are and always will be One with the All and the Source. Live your life as happily as possible without trying to cause pain to others. God IS Love. Search for Love for yourself and for others and you will die satisfied. I love you all unconditionally. That is the way it is in "so called" Heaven.

[iNow]

I died and was brought back.

Hmmm... I'll probably be sorry I asked, but by what definition or measure can you possibly say honestly that you were "dead?"