I believe in Jesus, but not in God.

[astrocat5]

Immortal

 

I presume you are voicing your opinions here, and simply forgot to qualify your pronouncements.

 

What do you mean here by 'You'?

 

If God creates you and you create God, then presumably you don't mean the same thing by 'you' in each half of this statement, for then then idea would be absurd.

 

Are you equating one of these 'you's with Holy Ghost? That would make some sense. But how can I believe in a God that I create?

 

If your God is anthropomorhic and objective that's fine. But where does Jesus ask us to believe in any such God?

 

He did not, as Astrocat5 points out. You are not describing the God of Jesus, and probably for the reason Jesus gave as quoted above.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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What do I mean by "your god."? I mean your God is the God of Abraham and to tell you the truth I don't like him, from what I've read of him. I mean; I think Eve was right to choose smarts in the garden. I would have advised her to do exactly the same. When faced with eating 'the fruit of the tree of knowledge,' she accepted the challenge, and persuadedr Adam to do the same. Of course 'your god' freaked and kicked them out of the garden - for getting smart - against your god's wishes.

 

No, I don't think much of your god. My God is Jesus and his heavenly Father.

 

I admire the width of your lpearning - who is Plotinus? No Philopsopher - who is he?

 

Your view correspond to the Sethians who introduced Demiurge as an evil God to solve the problem of evil which was strongly criticized by Plotinus.

 

Everything is inhabited by the true God, good and evil as such don't exist, the material world even though it doesn't exist in the external world, only it exists in our minds is important in fulfilling the works of the true God. This is how Valentinians view it.

 

 

 

What do you mean by "your god".?

 

 

 

Again Plotinus criticized the Sethians for not seeing the Goodness of the Demiurge.

 

 

 

Knowing the Holy Father through the teachings of Jesus gives you deliverance.

Obeying ther Holy Father by following Jesus will give me something, I'm sure. Who's Plotinus? He's no Philosopher. And "your god" is the god of Abraham - and I've moved on. I think you would do better to put your faith in Jesus and his Heavenly Father 'who's name is too holy for us to know' 'Hallowed be thy name ...' and 'Thy will be done,' What do you think is the will of Our Father in Heaven?

 

These 'Sethians,' are they the Scythians from the old days?

Well, nice talking to you.

[immortal]

What do I mean by "your god."? I mean your God is the God of Abraham and to tell you the truth I don't like him, from what I've read of him. I mean; I think Eve was right to choose smarts in the garden. I would have advised her to do exactly the same. When faced with eating 'the fruit of the tree of knowledge,' she accepted the challenge, and persuadedr Adam to do the same. Of course 'your god' freaked and kicked them out of the garden - for getting smart - against your god's wishes.

 

No, I don't think much of your god. My God is Jesus and his heavenly Father.

 

 

How much do you know about what kind of God I'm referring to? I was not refering to the God of the Abraham, that a wrong conclusion and a serious misunderstanding of yours.

 

I admire the width of your lpearning - who is Plotinus? No Philopsopher - who is he?

 

He was a great Platonist philosopher of his time. Plotinus

 

See also- Neoplatonism and Gnosticism

 

Obeying ther Holy Father by following Jesus will give me something, I'm sure. Who's Plotinus? He's no Philosopher. And "your god" is the god of Abraham - and I've moved on. I think you would do better to put your faith in Jesus and his Heavenly Father 'who's name is too holy for us to know' 'Hallowed be thy name ...' and 'Thy will be done,'

 

No, the Holy Father can be known and only he can give us deliverance by knowing him and his perfect knowledge through the secret teachings of Jesus Christ.

 

There was a different Gnostic tradition at the same time along with Sethians, they were Valentinians founded by Valentinus. I take his views.

 

Valentinian Theology

 

What do you think is the will of Our Father in Heaven?

 

The Father wants us to know him and wants us to take the path of righteousness to attain his perfect knowledge which evades us from suffering, bondage and death.

 

These 'Sethians,' are they the Scythians from the old days?

Well, nice talking to you.

 

Sethians and Gnostic Sethianism

[Superfusion]

What do I mean by "your god."? I mean your God is the God of Abraham and to tell you the truth I don't like him, from what I've read of him. I mean; I think Eve was right to choose smarts in the garden. I would have advised her to do exactly the same. When faced with eating 'the fruit of the tree of knowledge,' she accepted the challenge, and persuadedr Adam to do the same. Of course 'your god' freaked and kicked them out of the garden - for getting smart - against your god's wishes.

 

No, I don't think much of your god. My God is Jesus and his heavenly Father.

 

 

What do you mean you think little of him? What do you mean he is imperfect? You fool he is god. He can do no wrong, He cant be imperfect for he is god. Perfect is whatever he wants it to be. Whatever he does is right. If he destroys everything that ever existed it is perfect. Its god...

 

And as of Jesus. He died on the cross pleading to god, And to father as well in his last words.. Do not say that their are two because it is clearly stated that their is ONE All mighty god. Jesus made many references to old testament as HIS own god being the same one. This is monotheism, This is not polytheism. Do not try and ruin the glory jesus brought to god and do not try and smierre him, Especially if you refer to him AS god because he is what made us all. And what made everything. How can you think little of such? It is impossible for him to be wrong.

[hypervalent_iodine]

!

Moderator Note

Superfusion, we don't take kindly to personal comments here. Calling someone a fool goes against our rules and really doesn't do much for your whole argument. If you want to point out the flaws, etc., of an idea, then you may do so without also ridiculing the person making them.

[Superfusion]

!

Moderator Note

Superfusion, we don't take kindly to personal comments here. Calling someone a fool goes against our rules and really doesn't do much for your whole argument. If you want to point out the flaws, etc., of an idea, then you may do so without also ridiculing the person making them.

 

Very well, After posting the comment i did realize that i was kinda like him once and come up with some pretty wild theories. Very sorry aristocrat and iodine. But as to why i believe these flaws i still hold my ground.

[immortal]

What do you mean you think little of him? What do you mean he is imperfect? You fool he is god. He can do no wrong, He cant be imperfect for he is god. Perfect is whatever he wants it to be. Whatever he does is right. If he destroys everything that ever existed it is perfect. Its god...

 

And as of Jesus. He died on the cross pleading to god, And to father as well in his last words.. Do not say that their are two because it is clearly stated that their is ONE All mighty god. Jesus made many references to old testament as HIS own god being the same one. This is monotheism, This is not polytheism. Do not try and ruin the glory jesus brought to god and do not try and smierre him, Especially if you refer to him AS god because he is what made us all. And what made everything. How can you think little of such? It is impossible for him to be wrong.

 

I don't think the God of Abraham was an evil god nor I question the divinity of Jesus but the Gnostic texts seem to indicate that Jesus gave some secret teachings to his inner circles who were matured enough to understand him and those teachings indicate that there is a supreme Godhead above all gods and eventually leads to paganism and contradicts the teachings of the orthodox Christianity. Why is the orthodox Christianity has a higher authority over the Gnostic interpretation of the bible?

 

I do have problems when some God says "I'm the only one, there is no other God".

[astrocat5]

How much do you know about what kind of God I'm referring to? I was not refering to the God of the Abraham, that a wrong conclusion and a serious misunderstanding of yours.

 

 

 

He was a great Platonist philosopher of his time. Plotinus

 

See also- Neoplatonism and Gnosticism

 

 

 

No, the Holy Father can be known and only he can give us deliverance by knowing him and his perfect knowledge through the secret teachings of Jesus Christ.

 

There was a different Gnostic tradition at the same time along with Sethians, they were Valentinians founded by Valentinus. I take his views.

 

Valentinian Theology

 

 

 

The Father wants us to know him and wants us to take the path of righteousness to attain his perfect knowledge which evades us from suffering, bondage and death.

 

 

 

Sethians and Gnostic Sethianism

Okay, I tried... Who is your God, Immortal? Not the God of Abraham? Who is your God?

 

 

As for Plotinus... I read a book about Philosophy and he was never mentioned in it. Plato sure was. These Sethians, I have to look them up.

 

What is the Heavenly Father's will? That we should all 'pick up our cross' and follow his Son, Jesus. I can't even understand your answer to this question. Nice talking with you, tho', I'll check on what you said...

 

What do you mean you think little of him? What do you mean he is imperfect? You fool he is god. He can do no wrong, He cant be imperfect for he is god. Perfect is whatever he wants it to be. Whatever he does is right. If he destroys everything that ever existed it is perfect. Its god...

If he was perfect, everything he made would be perfect. This world is not perfect.

 

Who made the world? The same being that took Jesus to the top of a mountain and tempted him, saying 'All this you can have if you worship me?' And who was that? That was the Devil. The devil made the world, that's why it doesn't work - that's why we are destroying ourselves.

 

And as of Jesus. He died on the cross pleading to god, And to father as well in his last words.. Do not say that their are two because it is clearly stated that their is ONE All mighty god. Jesus made many references to old testament as HIS own god being the same one. This is monotheism, This is not polytheism. Do not try and ruin the glory jesus brought to god and do not try and smierre him, Especially if you refer to him AS god because he is what made us all. And what made everything. How can you think little of such? It is impossible for him to be wrong.

Jesus was not the son of God - where does he say he IS? He called himself the son of Man, just so there would be no mistake - the same mistake you're making. Don't put your faith in God, put it in Jesus. If you make God your number one, as you seem to have, you could be making a mistake. God is not such a nice person - Once nobody believed in God. Nobody except one man, Noah. So God drownded everybody else (including the unicorns) and when Noah was the only survivor - everybody believed in God.

 

Now, if you think that's admirable, to kill everybody in he world who disagrees with you - that's sick. If you think that's a good way to convert people to your point of view, well I sure don't. That's what I think anyway.

 

Very well, After posting the comment i did realize that i was kinda like him once and come up with some pretty wild theories. Very sorry aristocrat and iodine. But as to why i believe these flaws i still hold my ground.

That's okay, Superfusion. You believe in 'flaws'? Please explain...

 

Very well, After posting the comment i did realize that i was kinda like him once and come up with some pretty wild theories. Very sorry aristocrat and iodine. But as to why i believe these flaws i still hold my ground.

That's okay, Superfusion. You believe in 'flaws'? Please explain...

 

I don't think the God of Abraham was an evil god nor I question the divinity of Jesus but the Gnostic texts seem to indicate that Jesus gave some secret teachings to his inner circles who were matured enough to understand him and those teachings indicate that there is a supreme Godhead above all gods and eventually leads to paganism and contradicts the teachings of the orthodox Christianity. Why is the orthodox Christianity has a higher authority over the Gnostic interpretation of the bible?

 

I do have problems when some God says "I'm the only one, there is no other God".

There is much said of Gnostics that is not true. I would also advise you not to put too muchu faith in the Gnostic Gospels - I'm a Gnostic and I don't. I mostly like the Gospels of Mathew, Mark, Luke and John, myself. And how did Jesus die? He drownded. When the Roman Soldier stuck a spear in him, out came water and blood. The corpse was waterlogged.

[immortal]

Okay, I tried... Who is your God, Immortal? Not the God of Abraham? Who is your God?

 

There is an amazing degree of similarity between the pleroma of God with his Aeons of the Gnostic Christians and the pleroma of God with his pantheon of Gods of the Upanishads which is an another ancient Gnosis school of thought. So I'm basically talking about the true God of the Gnostics who is none other than the God of the Upanishads. They both are describing the same pleroma of God and their teachings are identical to each other.

 

As for Plotinus... I read a book about Philosophy and he was never mentioned in it. Plato sure was. These Sethians, I have to look them up.

 

Plotinus was a Neoplatonist, so he came after Plato.

 

 

What is the Heavenly Father's will? That we should all 'pick up our cross' and follow his Son, Jesus. I can't even understand your answer to this question. Nice talking with you, tho', I'll check on what you said...

 

You're taking it too literally. Jesus took away all our sins not by dieing at the cross, he took away all our sins because he gave us the Gnosis, perfect knowledge of the Father so that we can live a sinless existence.

 

Gnosis (knowledge) of the Father removes the power of sin. Those who have gnosis (knowledge) are theoretically free of sin. The Gospel of Philip says "The one who has knowledge is a free person. But the free person does not sin, for the one who sins is a slave of sin "

 

Jesus was not the son of God .

 

May be he was the son of true God.

 

There is much said of Gnostics that is not true. I would also advise you not to put too muchu faith in the Gnostic Gospels - I'm a Gnostic and I don't. I mostly like the Gospels of Mathew, Mark, Luke and John, myself. And how did Jesus die? He drownded. When the Roman Soldier stuck a spear in him, out came water and blood. The corpse was waterlogged.

 

If you call yourself Gnostic then stick to the Gnostic interpretation of the Bible, don't make up things on your own and misrepresent their interpretations and teachings. They have their own interpretation of the Old Testament as well as the New testament, they advice us to interpret the bible in a figurative or a metaphorical way having deep hidden psychological and spiritual meanings, it shouldn't be interpreted too literally.

 

This is the reason why most of the bible contradicts with empirical evidence because they have been interpreted too literally, surely Noah's Ark couldn't have happened literally there is a deeper hidden meaning behind the bible. If you think whatever I'm saying is incorrect then check out the links which I gave you and then come back.

Edited April 6, 2012 by immortal

[DrDNA]

Jesus said, 'I am the truth, the light and the way.'I think God is a part of the old Jewish religion, and does not apply. Jesus never said he was the son of God

 

First of all, whatever you are tripping on is gonna be a rough ride down.

 

Secondly. Ponder this:

I am trying here to prevent anyone saying the really foolish thing that people often say about Him: “I’m ready to accept Jesus as a great moral teacher, but I don’t accept his claim to be God.” That is the one thing we must not say. A man who was merely a man and said the sort of things Jesus said would not be a great moral teacher. He would either be a lunatic—on a level with the man who says he is a poached egg—or else he would be the Devil of Hell. You must make your choice. Either this man was, and is, the Son of God: or else a madman or something worse. You can shut Him up for a fool, you can spit at Him and kill Him as a demon; or you can fall at His feet and call Him Lord and God. But let us not come with any patronising nonsense about His being a great human teacher. He has not left that open to us. He did not intend to. C S Lewis (former ardent atheist; converted with the help of his best friend, JRR Tolken), Mere Christianity

 

 

Third, Do your homework dude.

 

1 Jesus, in his own words, says he is God/The Christ/The Messiah/The Son of God.

 

1.1 John 10:24

John 10:24The Jews gathered around him, saying, "How long will you keep us in suspense? If you are the Christ,[c] tell us plainly." 25Jesus answered, "I did tell you, but you do not believe. The miracles I do in my Father's name speak for me, 26but you do not believe because you are not my sheep. 27My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. 28I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand. 29My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all[d]; no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand. 30I and the Father are one." 31Again the Jews picked up stones to stone him, 32but Jesus said to them, "I have shown you many great miracles from the Father. For which of these do you stone me?" 33"We are not stoning you for any of these," replied the Jews, "but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God." 34Jesus answered them, "Is it not written in your Law, 'I have said you are gods'[e]? 35If he called them 'gods,' to whom the word of God came—and the Scripture cannot be broken— 36what about the one whom the Father set apart as his very own and sent into the world? Why then do you accuse me of blasphemy because I said, 'I am God's Son'? 37Do not believe me unless I do what my Father does. 38But if I do it, even though you do not believe me, believe the miracles, that you may know and understand that the Father is in me, and I in the Father." 39Again they tried to seize him, but he escaped their grasp.

 

1.2 Luke 24:44

Luke 24:44He said to them, "This is what I told you while I was still with you: Everything must be fulfilled that is written about me in the Law of Moses, the Prophets and the Psalms." 45Then he opened their minds so they could understand the Scriptures. 46He told them, "This is what is written: The Christ will suffer and rise from the dead on the third day, 47and repentance and forgiveness of sins will be preached in his name to all nations, beginning at Jerusalem. 48You are witnesses of these things. 49I am going to send you what my Father has promised; but stay in the city until you have been clothed with power from on high."

 

1.3 John 8:42

John 8:42Jesus said to them, "If God were your Father, you would love me, for I came from God and now am here. I have not come on my own; but he sent me. 43Why is my language not clear to you? Because you are unable to hear what I say. 44You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father's desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies. 45Yet because I tell the truth, you do not believe me! 46Can any of you prove me guilty of sin? If I am telling the truth, why don't you believe me? 47He who belongs to God hears what God says. The reason you do not hear is that you do not belong to God."

 

1.4 John 11 25

John 11 25Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in me will live, even though he dies; 26and whoever lives and believes in me will never die. Do you believe this?" 27"Yes, Lord," she told him, "I believe that you are the Christ,the Son of God, who was to come into the world."

 

1.5 John8 23

John8 23But he continued, "You are from below; I am from above. You are of this world; I am not of this world. 24I told you that you would die in your sins; if you do not believe that I am the one I claim to be,a]">[a] you will indeed die in your sins." 25"Who are you?" they asked. "Just what I have been claiming all along," Jesus replied. 26"I have much to say in judgment of you. But he who sent me is reliable, and what I have heard from him I tell the world." 27They did not understand that he was telling them about his Father. 28So Jesus said, "When you have lifted up the Son of Man, then you will know that I am the one I claim to be and that I do nothing on my own but speak just what the Father has taught me. 29The one who sent me is with me; he has not left me alone, for I always do what pleases him." 30Even as he spoke, many put their faith in him.

 

2 Jesus Says that He and God are One

2.1 John 8:12

John 8:12When Jesus spoke again to the people, he said, "I am the light of the world. Whoever follows me will never walk in darkness, but will have the light of life." 13The Pharisees challenged him, "Here you are, appearing as your own witness; your testimony is not valid." 14Jesus answered, "Even if I testify on my own behalf, my testimony is valid, for I know where I came from and where I am going. But you have no idea where I come from or where I am going. 15You judge by human standards; I pass judgment on no one. 16But if I do judge, my decisions are right, because I am not alone. I stand with the Father, who sent me. 17In your own Law it is written that the testimony of two men is valid. 18I am one who testifies for myself; my other witness is the Father, who sent me." (wtj....Jesus is testifying for 2 men, himself and the Father).

 

2.2 John 10:37-38

John 10:37-38 (ASV) If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not But if I do them, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know and understand that the Father is in me, and I in the Father.

 

2.3 John 14:8

8Philip said, "Lord, show us the Father and that will be enough for us." 9Jesus answered: "Don't you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, 'Show us the Father'? 10Don't you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you are not just my own. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work. 11Believe me when I say that I am in the Father and the Father is in me; or at least believe on the evidence of the miracles themselves. 12I tell you the truth, anyone who has faith in me will do what I have been doing. He will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father. 13And I will do whatever you ask in my name, so that the Son may bring glory to the Father. 14You may ask me for anything in my name, and I will do it.

 

2.4 John 6:29

John 6:29Jesus answered, "The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent." 30So they asked him, "What miraculous sign then will you give that we may see it and believe you? What will you do? 31Our forefathers ate the manna in the desert; as it is written: 'He gave them bread from heaven to eat."

32Jesus said to them, "I tell you the truth, it is not Moses who has given you the bread from heaven, but it is my Father who gives you the true bread from heaven. 33For the bread of God is he who comes down from heaven and gives life to the world." 34"Sir," they said, "from now on give us this bread."

35Then Jesus declared, "I am the bread of life. He who comes to me will never go hungry, and he who believes in me will never be thirsty. 36But as I told you, you have seen me and still you do not believe. 37All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away. 38For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me. 39And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all that he has given me, but raise them up at the last day. 40For my Father's will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day." 41At this the Jews began to grumble about him because he said, "I am the bread that came down from heaven." 42They said, "Is this not Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How can he now say, 'I came down from heaven'?"

43"Stop grumbling among yourselves," Jesus answered. 44"No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day. 45It is written in the Prophets: 'They will all be taught by God.'Everyone who listens to the Father and learns from him comes to me. 46No one has seen the Father except the one who is from God; only he has seen the Father. 47I tell you the truth, he who believes has everlasting life. 48I am the bread of life. 49Your forefathers ate the manna in the desert, yet they died. 50But here is the bread that comes down from heaven, which a man may eat and not die. 51I am the living bread that came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever. This bread is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world."

 

2.5 John 12:44

John 12:44Then Jesus cried out, "When a man believes in me, he does not believe in me only, but in the one who sent me. 45When he looks at me, he sees the one who sent me. 46I have come into the world as a light, so that no one who believes in me should stay in darkness. 47"As for the person who hears my words but does not keep them, I do not judge him. For I did not come to judge the world, but to save it. 48There is a judge for the one who rejects me and does not accept my words; that very word which I spoke will condemn him at the last day. 49For I did not speak of my own accord, but the Father who sent me commanded me what to say and how to say it. 50I know that his command leads to eternal life. So whatever I say is just what the Father has told me to say."

3 Jesus is the Son of God

3.1 Luke 2:45-50

Luke 2:45-50 (NIV) When they did not find him, they went back to Jerusalem to look for him. 46 After three days they found him in the temple courts, sitting among the teachers, listening to them and asking them questions. 47 Everyone who heard him was amazed at his understanding and his answers. 48 When his parents s.aw him, they were astonished. His mother said to him, "Son, why have you treated us like this? Your father and I have been anxiously searching for you." 49 "Why were you searching for me?" he asked "Didn't you know I had to be in my Father's house?" 50 But they did not understand what he was saying to them

 

3.2 John 15:24-25

John 15:24-25 (NIV) If I had not done among them what no one else did, they would not be guilty of sin. But now they have seen these miracles, and yet they have hated both me and my Father. 25 But this is to fulfill what is written in their Law: 'They hated me without reason.'

 

3.3 Mark9: 5

Mark9: 5Peter said to Jesus, "Rabbi, it is good for us to be here. Let us put up three shelters—one for you, one for Moses and one for Elijah." 6(He did not know what to say, they were so frightened.) 7Then a cloud appeared and enveloped them, and a voice came from the cloud: "This is my Son, whom I love. Listen to him!" 8Suddenly, when they looked around, they no longer saw anyone with them except Jesus. 9As they were coming down the mountain, Jesus gave them orders not to tell anyone what they had seen until the Son of Man had risen from the dead. 10They kept the matter to themselves, discussing what "rising from the dead" meant.

11And they asked him, "Why do the teachers of the law say that Elijah must come first?" 12Jesus replied, "To be sure, Elijah does come first, and restores all things. Why then is it written that the Son of Man must suffer much and be rejected? 13But I tell you, Elijah has come, and they have done to him everything they wished, just as it is written about him."

 

3.4 John 3:10

John 3:10"You are Israel's teacher," said Jesus, "and do you not understand these things? 11I tell you the truth, we speak of what we know, and we testify to what we have seen, but still you people do not accept our testimony. 12I have spoken to you of earthly things and you do not believe; how then will you believe if I speak of heavenly things? 13No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven—the Son of Man. 14Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the desert, so the Son of Man must be lifted up, 15that everyone who believes in him may have eternal life.e]">[e] 16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son,that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son.

 

3.5 John10:7

John10:7Therefore Jesus said again, "I tell you the truth, I am the gate for the sheep. 8All who ever came before me were thieves and robbers, but the sheep did not listen to them. 9I am the gate; whoever enters through me will be saved. He will come in and go out, and find pasture. 10The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy; I have come that they may have life, and have it to the full. 11"I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep. 12The hired hand is not the shepherd who owns the sheep. So when he sees the wolf coming, he abandons the sheep and runs away. Then the wolf attacks the flock and scatters it. 13The man runs away because he is a hired hand and cares nothing for the sheep. 14"I am the good shepherd; I know my sheep and my sheep know me— 15just as the Father knows me and I know the Father—and I lay down my life for the sheep. 16I have other sheep that are not of this sheep pen. (wtj...Gentiles!!) I must bring them also. They too will listen to my voice, and there shall be one flock and one shepherd. 17The reason my Father loves me is that I lay down my life—only to take it up again. 18No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord. I have authority to lay it down and authority to take it up again. This command I received from my Father."

 

3.6 John 8:54

John 8:54Jesus replied, "If I glorify myself, my glory means nothing. My Father, whom you claim as your God, is the one who glorifies me. 55Though you do not know him, I know him. If I said I did not, I would be a liar like you, but I do know him and keep his word. 56Your father Abraham rejoiced at the thought of seeing my day; he saw it and was glad." 57"You are not yet fifty years old," the Jews said to him, "and you have seen Abraham!" 58"I tell you the truth," Jesus answered, "before Abraham was born, I am!" (wtj....EG, see “I Am Who I Am” see Exodus) 59At this, they picked up stones to stone him, but Jesus hid himself, slipping away from the temple grounds.

 

4 Jesus speaks for God

4.1 John 18:33-37

John 18:33-37 (NIV) Pilate then went back inside the palace, summoned Jesus and asked him, "Are you the king of the Jews?" 34 "Is that your own idea," Jesus asked, "or did others talk to you about me?" 35 "Am I a Jew?" Pilate replied. "It was your people and your chief priests who handed you over to me. What is it you have done?" 36 Jesus said, "My kingdom is not of this world. If it were, my servants would fight to prevent my arrest by the Jews. But now my kingdom is from another place." 37 "You are a king, then!" said Pilate. Jesus answered, "You are right in saying I am a king. In fact, for this reason I was born, and for this I came into the world, to testify to the truth. Everyone on the side of truth listens to me."

 

4.2 Luke 4:16-21

Luke 4:16-21 (NIV) He went to Nazareth, where he had been brought up, and on the Sabbath day he went into the synagogue, as was his custom. And he stood up to read. 17 The scroll of the prophet Isaiah was handed to him. Unrolling it, he found the place where it is written: 18 "The Spirit of the Lord is on me, because he has anointed me to preach good news to the poor. He has sent me to proclaim freedom for the prisoners and recovery of sight for the blind, to release the oppressed, 19 to proclaim the year of the Lord's favor." 20 Then he rolled up the scroll, gave it back to the attendant and sat down. The eyes of everyone in the synagogue were fastened on him, 21 and he began by saying to them ,"Today this scripture is fulfilled in your hearing."

Edited April 13, 2012 by DrDNA

[seriously disabled]

I think God is jealous of mere mortals like me in some way. I think God is jealous that I am mortal and he is not, because every moment could be my last. I think that everything is more beautiful because I am doomed.

 

Anyway, I find God's behavior quite pathetic.

 

http://www.quickmeme.com/Advice-God/

Edited April 13, 2012 by seriously disabled

[DrDNA]

I think God is jealous of mere mortals like me in some way. I think God is jealous that I am mortal and he is not, because every moment could be my last. I think that everything is more beautiful because I am doomed.

 

Anyway, I find God's behavior quite pathetic.

 

http://www.quickmeme.com/Advice-God/

Me thinks you have been reading too much Greek mythology.

[astrocat5]

I think God is jealous of mere mortals like me in some way. I think God is jealous that I am mortal and he is not, because every moment could be my last. I think that everything is more beautiful because I am doomed.

 

Anyway, I find God's behavior quite pathetic.

 

http://www.quickmeme.com/Advice-God/

What an interesting viewpoint! If you are seriously disabled, if you believe in Jesus - then you could be cured. I don't know, but your belief is essential.

 

And I don't even like God. When I read about all the horrible things he did, I have to agree with you. As for being doomed - we're all doomed. Some will die before others, but in the end, death wins. That's in this world, where Death rules. In the next one, there4 is no death.

 

So nice talking with you. I'll pray for you. Let me know if you start feeling better.

 

Me thinks you have been reading too much Greek mythology.

Whereas I think his wider experience can teach us something!

[seriously disabled]

I don't believe in either. And even if there is a God for the sake of argument, Jesus cannot be God because he died many years ago and as far as we know, people cannot come back from the dead.

 

My mother always said that she believes in the evil eye but it does not seem rational to me to believe in the evil eye too.

Edited April 25, 2012 by seriously disabled

[astrocat5]

I don't believe in either. And even if there is a God for the sake of argument, Jesus cannot be God because he died many years ago and as far as we know, people cannot come back from the dead.

 

My mother always said that she believes in the evil eye but it does not seem rational to me to believe in the evil eye too.

I find your point of view fascinating. And you're right, 'Jesus cannot be God,' because he never said, 'I am the Son of God.' He said, instead, 'I am the Son of Man,' just so people wouldn't make this mistake (thinking he is the Son of God.) He is the Son of our Heavenly Father - the Perfect One, and everything he makes is perfect.

Our Father made many other beings, all as good and as powerful as He was. Perfectly free were they to reject the Heavenly Father. Looking at themselves, they (some of them) thought they were justas good as The Father - if not better!

One of these beings, thinking he was just as good, gave off Hydrogen, from which our Universe evolved. That was God, the creator of all material things.

The Heavenly Father (who's name we do not know - 'Hallowed be thy name,' according to Jesus. 'You cannot know The Father, but I and the Father are the same.'

God is a jealous God, and vengeful with it. Jesus showed none of these traits. Jesus taught us The Father is kind and forgiving - just the opposite, I would say, to God

There's a story, you see, where the snake whispered to Eve to chose to get smarts in the Garden of Eden, then pushed Adam to get smart too. This made God very angry and he kicked them both out of the Garden. God cursed all snakes and turned woman against snakes. It's right there on page 2 of the Bible. I think the snake was right. I would have advised Eve to do the same.

 

Well, you see, if I think the snake was right, that shows I don't think much of God.

Anyway, it's been great talking to you, Seriously Disabled, but if you believed in Jesus, you could be cured. Why not try?

[iNow]

Anyway, it's been great talking to you, Seriously Disabled, but if you believed in Jesus, you could be cured. Why not try?

Like these folks?

 

http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/summary.htm

http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/important.htm

[Phi for All]

I find your point of view fascinating. And you're right, 'Jesus cannot be God,' because he never said, 'I am the Son of God.' He said, instead, 'I am the Son of Man,' just so people wouldn't make this mistake (thinking he is the Son of God.) He is the Son of our Heavenly Father - the Perfect One, and everything he makes is perfect.

Our Father made many other beings, all as good and as powerful as He was. Perfectly free were they to reject the Heavenly Father. Looking at themselves, they (some of them) thought they were justas good as The Father - if not better!

One of these beings, thinking he was just as good, gave off Hydrogen, from which our Universe evolved. That was God, the creator of all material things.

The Heavenly Father (who's name we do not know - 'Hallowed be thy name,' according to Jesus. 'You cannot know The Father, but I and the Father are the same.'

God is a jealous God, and vengeful with it. Jesus showed none of these traits. Jesus taught us The Father is kind and forgiving - just the opposite, I would say, to God

There's a story, you see, where the snake whispered to Eve to chose to get smarts in the Garden of Eden, then pushed Adam to get smart too. This made God very angry and he kicked them both out of the Garden. God cursed all snakes and turned woman against snakes. It's right there on page 2 of the Bible. I think the snake was right. I would have advised Eve to do the same.

 

Well, you see, if I think the snake was right, that shows I don't think much of God.

Anyway, it's been great talking to you, Seriously Disabled, but if you believed in Jesus, you could be cured. Why not try?

!

Moderator Note

Preaching is against our rules here. If you're going to make statements as if they were true, please back them up with supportive evidence. You are free to talk about what you believe, but not free to assert it as fact without backing those assertions up.

 

Please obey the rules you agreed to when you joined this forum. Response to this modnote is unnecessary.

[astrocat5]

!

Moderator Note

Preaching is against our rules here. If you're going to make statements as if they were true, please back them up with supportive evidence. You are free to talk about what you believe, but not free to assert it as fact without backing those assertions up.

 

Please obey the rules you agreed to when you joined this forum. Response to this modnote is unnecessary.

Sorry, I'll do better.

 

I believe both in Jesus and God but don't believe that Jesus is the son of God. According to Islam, Jesus is a Prophet whose name was Isha (A). Jews tried to kill Him but Allah has saved Him and taken Him to the sky and will send him again to kill Dajjal, the anti-Christ.

That's fascinating also. I knew Jesus was a prophet to you guys, but I never knew what you called him. But Allah is the same as God, right? He is the creator, is he not? Jesus is much more important to me, as he is the Son of the Perfect One.

 

The Perfect One I believe, made God and many others, all perfect. Perfectly free to think they were just as good as their creator, but by thinking this, they made themselves imperfect. That was what God thought and it was God who created the World, without consulting the Perfect One.

 

You see, if you are imperfect, everything you make will be imperfect and will ultimately self-destruct. This "Go forth and multiply" is not good advice today - there are already too many people for the world's resources. Is that Allah's advice also?

 

Anyway, thanks for replying - I found it highly interesting, what you said. Got any more?

 

Like these folks?

 

http://whywontgodhea...com/summary.htm

http://whywontgodhea...m/important.htm

I investigated your references, and you're right, I don't think God will cure you. But you could put your faith in Jesus, who cured many people. That's what I believe, anyway.

 

When you die, you come to these huge 'Pearly Gates,' and music and a big sign over it saying 'God's People,' and everyone's pushing and shoving to get in, but it's just speakers and acliff. But me and this crippled kid, we get pushed out so we go along the wall and eventually come to a narrow entrance, almost too narrow to squeeze thru'. But Jesus always said 'Enter by the Narrow Gate,' so we go in there.

 

But you make your choice in this world, don't you know?

[iNow]

I investigated your references, and you're right, I don't think God will cure you. But you could put your faith in Jesus, who cured many people. That's what I believe, anyway.

Do you have any evidence of this belief, or do you just believe it because it feels good to you? Did you know there have been many studies showing that prayer doesn't positively impact health outcomes, and can sometimes even make patients sicker?

Edited May 16, 2012 by iNow

[astrocat5]

Do you have any evidence of this belief, or do you just believe it because it feels good to you? Did you know there have been many studies showing that prayer doesn't positively impact health outcomes, and can sometimes even make patients sicker?

In the New Testament, Jesus cured many people. Prayer can make people sicker? Sure, praying to God won't help you. Only if you pray to Jesus can you be cured, at least that's what I think. It's all a question of Faith - either you believe or you don't.

You don't seem to believe, am I right? You might as well be honest.

 

Perfect one! Good. A knew word in my dictionary. Well, you have said that the perfect one made God. Then you said if some one is imperfect then all his creations are must to be imperfect. Of course you are right. Now you see all the creations by the God are imperfect (from your sense). So the God is must to be imperfect. Well, now come on. If the God is imperfect then He is creation of so called Perfect One. How the creation of the perfect one can be imperfect. It's your logic, not me.

Yes yes, Aymanbinmoshi. But I believe God was made perfect by the Perfect One. Unfortunately, for us, God thought he was as good, if not better, than the Perfect One. By thinking this, God became inperfect - he was vain. God made the world, that's why it's imperfect and that's why Earth will self-destruct.

 

I really like talking to you but I don't know why.

[iNow]

Prayer can make people sicker? Sure, praying to God won't help you. Only if you pray to Jesus can you be cured, at least that's what I think.

I know that's what you think, but it is not connected with reality. Prayer can sometimes have calming effects, but not really different than any form of meditation or intentional relaxation. Also, intercessory prayer does not have any meaningful impact on health outcomes. There have been studies that show when people know they are being prayed for their health outcomes tend to be worse relative to others in similar situations who did not know people were praying for them.

 

Either way, even if you dismiss or ignore the above, my previously shared link regarding, "Why won't god heal amputees" shows how painfully nonsensical your position truly is. If you think Jesus cures through prayer, then put your money where your mouth is. Cut off your arm, start praying, and see what happens. Will you try this and report back? I understand it may take you longer to type a response with only one arm, but after all... You have faith, and Jesus heals, right? What do you have to lose?

 

It's all a question of Faith - either you believe or you don't.

You don't seem to believe, am I right? You might as well be honest.

You are correct. I have spent many years considering the topic of religion and gods existence, and also whether or not Jesus was somehow supernatural or divine. After much reflection, and upon realizing that I greatly value my integrity, intelligence, and honesty, I have chosen to truly become a man and abandon the childish thing which is faith.

 

You are free to believe whatever silly thing you want, but I'm also free to show you where your position is flawed and to offer valid criticisms of your baseless assertions.

Edited May 23, 2012 by iNow

[seriously disabled]

I have no reason to believe in either of them and besides Jesus is dead. And if normal people could come back from the dead then maybe so can my dead brother and many other great people could come back to life again but fact is I don't see him again and probably won't see him ever again.

 

Lets face it, extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence and at present, there is no such evidence.

Edited May 23, 2012 by seriously disabled

[PeterJ]

First you have to find evidence that the extraordinary claims were made in the first place. Don't assume that they were made by Jesus just because someone interprets the scriptures in a certain way. Look at how many Muslims believe they will go to Heaven as a person, with virgins on-tap and flowing rivers of milk, rather than see that this is simply metaphor and poetry. Human beings are so simple-minded sometimes it's ridiculous.

 

Inow says "Prayer can sometimes have calming effects, but is not really different than any form of meditation or intentional relaxation."

 

It may be exactly the same thing as meditation, at least for people who aren't asking for a new bicycle for Christmas. A good source for prayer would be the Philokalia. There we read Evagrios, 'Try not to see a shape or form when praying, then you will understand'. This indicates a close equivalence between Zen sitting, say, and the prayer of the Christian desert fathers. There is no difference in intent between the Jesus prayer and chanting Hari Krishna. It's all about control of the mind, or seeing beyond the ordinary mind, or contacting the 'supramundane'. It's not about raising people from the dead, rotting hair maggots n'all. Remember that much of the teachings of the Churches is aimed at ordinary folk who like to be reassured and comforted with simple ideas. We do not have to be one of them but can dig deeper.

 

The idea that meditation does no more than have a calming effect is absurd, and only plausible for someone who has hardly tried it. In meditation one can travel beyond life and death. One can do this driving down the motorway but it's easier to follow the usual practices. What is so often missed is that meditation is a skill, such that it is not immediately obvious what the point of it is. I was lucky enough to have a profound learning experience the first time I tried it, but usually it takes a while before its benefits begin to become apparent. To begin with it may seem to do no more than have a claming effect. Then it becomes awesome, shocking, frightening, inspiring, revitalising, life-affirming, confidence-giving and knowledge-inducing, depending on where you start and how you get on.

 

Yes, Jesus the person is dead. But he is not dead in you. He is there if you go looking. Not as a person, of course, but as an intrinsic part of your own being.

 

A very good recent book by Freke and Gandy proposes that Jesus is a spiritual archetype created for the Jewish people to stand in for Osiris/Dionysius. It is possible to believe that this might be true and yet still pray to Jesus, chant the Jesus prayer, emulate his life and learn from or follow his teachings. You and I will never know if he ever actually lived, or even if the Bible contains his sayings or was made up later. It does not matter. What matters is whether those sayings are true. I don't care who said that F=MV, it is true whoever said it.

 

What a pity the Gospel of Thomas never made it into the New Testament. It might have been more obvious that there is more to Jesus' life and teachings than meets the eye.

[immortal]

There is no difference in intent between the Jesus prayer and chanting Hari Krishna.

 

 

 

There in lies the problem, Christianity says that Jesus is the only saviour and we have to recieve him if we have to enter the kingdom of god and Krishna says if you worship other gods you'll come back to this world again but if you surrender yourself to him you'll enjoy his everlasting dome and won't come back to this world again. Do both give us everlasting life? Whom to follow and whom not to? If you follow one and reject the other is it not that you are showing double standards? It doesn't look reasonable to me and therefore I decide not to take either of them seriously.

[iNow]

Yes, Jesus the person is dead. But he is not dead in you. He is there if you go looking. Not as a person, of course, but as an intrinsic part of your own being.

So is the easter bunny. So what?

[pmb]

Jesus never said he was the son of God

 

Luke 22:66-70 [66] At daybreak the council of the elders of the people, both the chief priests and teachers of the law, met together, and Jesus was led before them. [67] "If you are the Christ, " they said, "tell us." Jesus answered, "If I tell you, you will not believe me, [68] and if I asked you, you would not answer. [69] But from now on, the Son of Man will be seated at the right hand of the mighty God." [70] They all asked, "Are you then the Son of God?" He replied, "You are right in saying I am."

 

Good enough for a logical man. Jesus would never have told someone he was the son of God if it wan't true. Jesus never lied! To disagree with that is to be a kind of Christian that Jesus wouldn't want me debating with. Jesus said to bring his news to the town and if a town rejcts you then kick the dirt of the town off your shoes and move on to the next town.

 

Kick, kick, kick!!

Edited May 23, 2012 by pmb