I believe in Jesus, but not in God.

astrocat5 · June 18, 2012

I see I was wrong to refer to the dictionary, and that pmb wasted all his effort citing them. Completely pointless. Apparently they are all wrong. Now we can only have faith in something we cannot know, but only if we claim we do know. Someone better phone the OED to inform them of the change.

Is there a purpose to this discussion or are we all just lonely?

Sure there's a purpose. This is my thread and I'm trying (hard) to explain gnosticism.

I'm a gnostic, so I should be able to.

Peter, do you believe in God? I have to know that before we can proceed.

Let me know one way or the other.

Don't be such a tease. You know I have a hard time with disappointment.

Goes to show that you're confused. Do you believe in God, 'Now'?

If you don't that's okay. If you do please tell me.

Don't you actively deny the existence of God? I know you're a philosopher and you're coming from perennial philosophy or the rational philosophy. Its your constant dogmatic assertions about God as a hopeless muddle in mysticism is what is annoying me. Especially when you put the God of the advaita vedanta and the Aeons of the Gnostics as a hopeless muddle. Let me seperate myself from the scholars who support my view and argue from the point of these scriptures themselves.

Immortal, I have to know whether you believe in God or not.

15. The face of truth is covered with a

golden disc. Unveil it, O Pushan, so that I

who love the truth may see it.

15. "The face of Truth is concealed by a golden vessel. Do thou, O Sun, open it so as to be seen by me who am by nature truthful (or, am the performer of rightful duties)."

This is the 15th verse of the Isa Upanishad and it is clear that yajnvalkya is praying to the Sun God who emanated from the golden egg - Hiranyagarbha. Yajnavalkya is saying that this Hiranyagarbha is the Brahman itself. What you're not understanding is that by defending this doctrine of non-dualism you're simultaneously defending this God and you seem to be not aware of this and blindly assert that mysticism is the death of the God. Do you really know the implications of the doctrine which you're expouding?

Is there anyone here who still doubts that this type of thinking is broken?

I need to know whether he believes in God or not.

Is there anyone here who still doubts that this type of thinking is broken?

I need to know whether he believes in God or not.

The ancient Gnostic people neither knew about metaphysics nor did they knew about modern science. Religion and Science is about different worlds. If anyone applies metaphysics or modern science to mysticism and makes conclusions then they're doing bad philosophy.

Schroedinger knew about this.

[/font]

There is a lot of garbage said about Gnostics. Let me tell you, we believe in Jesus. We think your God (the God of Abraham) is none other than the Devil. We have several reasons for this.

We agree with everything Jesus said. We worship him as the son of the Perfect One, the Heavenly Father. Whether or not the ancient Gnostics knew about modern scientific undertakings is neither here nor there.

And please tell me who Schroedinger was or is.

You're not the only one who have responded with such rudeness, PeterJ. There have been many and its not anyone's mistake. The problem is with the kind of worldview which we are trying to establish nowadays. For example:- Roger Penrose to establish that strong AI is impossible had to run through Turing machines, theory of computability, microtubules in the brain and molecular neurobiology, Godel's theorems, noncomputable mathematics and quantum physics. Hufff.

Many scholars and philosophers are trying to establish the connection of Modern Physics with eastern mysticism. I cannot repeat my position about this again and again, for some I have responded to them through PM and others like TAR understand my position that what we learn from science is one thing and what we learn through religion is another. This is because of the way the world is.

So just as you say that there is a reason why all metaphysical statements are undecidable, the reason being the world is a unity. I think there is a reason why scientific realism might be false and the quantum physicist Bernard d'Espagnat has went on to say that "what we call empirical reality is only a state of mind". Here is his argument for holding this position --> http://www.scientifi...197911_0158.pdf.

From the begining of the civilization of mankind, all the Gnosis religions of the world and the Platonic realism of Neo-Platonism have been constantly stating that scientific realism is false and the doctrine of Non-dualism or Advaita which you're defending is one among those Gnosis traditions. Therefore if Unity has to exist or if the God of the Gnostics have to exist one of the necessary pre-condition for it is that scientific realism must be false. So I think there is a reason why scientific realism might be false its because our cosmos is established in such a way that when we perceive the world in one state of mind(not brain) we see the world of emiprical reality and when we perceive the world in a different state of the mind we see the world of platonic reality or the noumenal reality.

Therefore this justifies my statement that "Religion and Science is about different worlds." If some scholars and philosophers are very much desperate to connect scientific or rational concepts with religion then I and Schroedinger can cheerfully say that God help them. I for one is not going to talk about science or metaphysics when talking about God or Unity in the religious forums.

When you look at it from the Gnostic point of view they call the Abrahamic God as the demiurge and go on to say that he is the cause of the evil and when you look it from the Bible point of view they call the Perfect One as the deceitful Satan, the Lucifer. So how do you decide who is evil and who is good or who is perfect and who is imperfect?

The Abrahamic God is the Devil, plain and simple. The Perfect One is our Heavenly Father - not Lucifer. Lucifer, like God, turned away from the Heavenly Father at the time of their creation. Lucifer was made perfectly, so perfectly he was the Heavenly Father's favourite.

But Lucifer, like God, rejected the Perfect One, thinking he was as good or better than the Heavenly Father.

Everything the Perfect One makes is perfect. Everything God makes is imperfect - this world is a good example. Why can you not see this, Immortal?

I believe in myself, I believe only in what I see, the problem you're not seeing is that there are different traditions with their own pantheon of Gods which are much older than Gnosticism, even though these different gnostic traditions say the same thing in phylosophy and psychology they say different things about their mythology. I am interested in the God of the Gods in those traditions or the perfect one(as you call him the Father) in Gnosticism. When youngsters begin to question things about the religions that they were brought up in much of it doesn't make any sense, they seem very unlikely and if the idea of a religion has got any chance of surviving in this 21st century world then a lot depends on how much truth exists in these gnosis traditions. These gnosis traditions say that the pleroma of god exists in each and everyone i.e the perfect one exist in each and everyone of us and to know whether he exists or not is my only hope.

If the perfect one made God and if God went on to make imperfect things then isn't it that it is the perfect one who made imperfect things and that would make him the imperfect one not the perfect one.

Your view is a depressing view, this is the Sethian view of Gnosticism but that's not how the Valentinians see it, man is imperfect not because he was created by god man is imperfect because he is ignorant of the true nature of the perfect one and so are other gods and angels. Its not that we are evil, we are just ignorant of the perfect one and its wrong to see the world as evil, the world is very much important in sowing the seed of knowledge in individuals to alleviate them to have gnosis. Therefore the world, the God and man is not evil but just ignorant. If we were evil then we all came from the perfect one and that would make the perfect one imperfect.

I never said that the Bible is garbage, that's not what I said. I said it has a deep different hidden meaning behind it and we should stop taking it literally making inferences about this world of empiricism from the bible.

You're not getting it. I said God made himself imperfect when he created matter. The Perfect One has nothing to do with matter. The Perfect One, the Heavenly Father, is a spirit and he lives in the spirit world. He hates to get his hands dirty.

I believe in myself, I believe only in what I see, the problem you're not seeing is that there are different traditions with their own pantheon of Gods which are much older than Gnosticism, even though these different gnostic traditions say the same thing in phylosophy and psychology they say different things about their mythology. I am interested in the God of the Gods in those traditions or the perfect one(as you call him the Father) in Gnosticism. When youngsters begin to question things about the religions that they were brought up in much of it doesn't make any sense, they seem very unlikely and if the idea of a religion has got any chance of surviving in this 21st century world then a lot depends on how much truth exists in these gnosis traditions. These gnosis traditions say that the pleroma of god exists in each and everyone i.e the perfect one exist in each and everyone of us and to know whether he exists or not is my only hope.

If the perfect one made God and if God went on to make imperfect things then isn't it that it is the perfect one who made imperfect things and that would make him the imperfect one not the perfect one.

Your view is a depressing view, this is the Sethian view of Gnosticism but that's not how the Valentinians see it, man is imperfect not because he was created by god man is imperfect because he is ignorant of the true nature of the perfect one and so are other gods and angels. Its not that we are evil, we are just ignorant of the perfect one and its wrong to see the world as evil, the world is very much important in sowing the seed of knowledge in individuals to alleviate them to have gnosis. Therefore the world, the God and man is not evil but just ignorant. If we were evil then we all came from the perfect one and that would make the perfect one imperfect.

I never said that the Bible is garbage, that's not what I said. I said it has a deep different hidden meaning behind it and we should stop taking it literally making inferences about this world of empiricism from the bible.

You're not getting it. I said God made himself imperfect when he created matter. The Perfect One has nothing to do with matter. The Perfect One, the Heavenly Father, is a spirit and he lives in the spirit world. He hates to get his hands dirty.

I feel a bit slighted

And why is that, Moontanaman?

As pertaining to rigour.

Even on public philosophy forums people usually understand that it is unrigorous to make statements that can be falsified, or at best cannot be proven. Usually there are a plenty of philosophers about so posters who do this are in a minority and will have regular reminders. But here they seem to be in the majority, with the consequence that it is impossible to distinguish between an authoritative statement backed up with evidence and argument and a completely daft one plucked from thin air. Many sentences begin 'The truth is as follows...', when they should begin 'It seems possible to me that...'. When they begin 'The truth is as follows...' the writer must be able to prove it or provide an argument from evidence or axioms. You don't see physcists talking about physics in the way people here talk about philosophy and religion.

Maybe it's just me. Some people aoppear to think that doing philosophy is like doing astrology, while I feel it should be like doing mathematics and is not a matter of opinion.

It's all about Faith, Peter, and whether you believe or not.

I'm a Gnostic and I'm simply trying to explain the gnostic point-of-view. Now, if you don't believe - either in God or the Devil you're going to have a hard time in this thread.

I don't believe in Astrology - superstition only. As for your Math, Mathematics isn't a Science. I hope you know that.

I'm just trying to explain gnosticism, about the difference between Jesus and God, about the Son of Man and the Son of God. We think God is the devil. We don't apporeciate him. Who we like is Jesus.

Anyway, let me know if you believe in God or not. Please!

As pertaining to rigour.

Even on public philosophy forums people usually understand that it is unrigorous to make statements that can be falsified, or at best cannot be proven. Usually there are a plenty of philosophers about so posters who do this are in a minority and will have regular reminders. But here they seem to be in the majority, with the consequence that it is impossible to distinguish between an authoritative statement backed up with evidence and argument and a completely daft one plucked from thin air. Many sentences begin 'The truth is as follows...', when they should begin 'It seems possible to me that...'. When they begin 'The truth is as follows...' the writer must be able to prove it or provide an argument from evidence or axioms. You don't see physcists talking about physics in the way people here talk about philosophy and religion.

Maybe it's just me. Some people aoppear to think that doing philosophy is like doing astrology, while I feel it should be like doing mathematics and is not a matter of opinion.

It's all about Faith, Peter, and whether you believe or not.

I'm a Gnostic and I'm simply trying to explain the gnostic point-of-view. Now, if you don't believe - either in God or the Devil you're going to have a hard time in this thread.

I don't believe in Astrology - superstition only. As for your Math, Mathematics isn't a Science. I hope you know that.

I'm just trying to explain gnosticism, about the difference between Jesus and God, about the Son of Man and the Son of God. We think God is the devil. We don't apporeciate him. Who we like is Jesus.

Anyway, let me know if you believe in God or not. Please!

PeterJ · June 18, 2012

"The Abrahamic God is the Devil, plain and simple. "

This sort of remark belongs in the pub. It would be impossible to discuss these issues sensibly using this sort of approach. Moderators on a philosophy forum would be down on this like a ton of bricks.

Do I believe in God?

I wish there was simple answer to this. But it's a subtle one, and obviously most people here already know unambiguosly whether He does, so my opinion hardly matters.

I will absent myself from this 'philosophy' forum and spend more time in the science section.

immortal · June 19, 2012

There is a lot of garbage said about Gnostics. Let me tell you, we believe in Jesus. We think your God (the God of Abraham) is none other than the Devil. We have several reasons for this.

We agree with everything Jesus said. We worship him as the son of the Perfect One, the Heavenly Father. Whether or not the ancient Gnostics knew about modern scientific undertakings is neither here nor there.

The Abrahamic God is the Devil, plain and simple. The Perfect One is our Heavenly Father - not Lucifer. Lucifer, like God, turned away from the Heavenly Father at the time of their creation. Lucifer was made perfectly, so perfectly he was the Heavenly Father's favourite.

But Lucifer, like God, rejected the Perfect One, thinking he was as good or better than the Heavenly Father.

Everything the Perfect One makes is perfect. Everything God makes is imperfect - this world is a good example. Why can you not see this, Immortal?

Okay, Jesus never said that he is the son of God.

Luke 22:64

They also blindfolded him and kept asking him, “Prophesy! Who is it that struck you?”

Luke 22:65And they said many other things against him, blaspheming him.

Luke 22:66

When day came, the assembly of the elders of the people gathered together, both chief priests and scribes. And they led him away to their council, and they said,

Luke 22:67

“If you are the Christ, tell us.” But he said to them, “If I tell you, you will not believe,

Luke 22:68

and if I ask you, you will not answer.

Luke 22:69

But from now on the Son of Man shall be seated at the right hand of the power of God.”

Luke 22:70

So they all said, “Are you the Son of God, then?” And he said to them, “You say that I am.”

Luke 22:71

Then they said, “What further testimony do we need? We have heard it ourselves from his own lips.”

John 10

7 So Jesus again said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, I am the door of the sheep. 8 All who came before me are thieves and robbers, but the sheep did not listen to them. 9 I am the door. If anyone enters by me, he will be saved and will go in and out and find pasture. 10 The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy. I came that they may have life and have it abundantly. 11 I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep. 12 He who is a hired hand and not a shepherd, who does not own the sheep, sees the wolf coming and leaves the sheep and flees, and the wolf snatches them and scatters them. 13 He flees because he is a hired hand and cares nothing for the sheep. 14 I am the good shepherd. I know my own and my own know me, 15 just as the Father knows me and I know the Father; and I lay down my life for the sheep. 16 And I have other sheep that are not of this fold. I must bring them also, and they will listen to my voice. So there will be one flock, one shepherd. 17 For this reason the Father loves me, because I lay down my life that I may take it up again. 18 No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord. I have authority to lay it down, and I have authority to take it up again. This charge I have received from my Father.” 19 There was again a division among the Jews because of these words. 20 Many of them said, “He has a demon, and is insane; why listen to him?” 21 Others said, “These are not the words of one who is oppressed by a demon. Can a demon open the eyes of the blind?” 22 At that time the Feast of Dedication took place at Jerusalem. It was winter, 23 and Jesus was walking in the temple, in the colonnade of Solomon. 24 So the Jews gathered around him and said to him, “How long will you keep us in suspense? If you are the Christ, tell us plainly.” 25 Jesus answered them, “I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in my Father’s name bear witness about me, 26 but you do not believe because you are not part of my flock. 27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. 28 I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand. 30 I and the Father are one.” 31 The Jews picked up stones again to stone him. 32 Jesus answered them, “I have shown you many good works from the Father; for which of them are you going to stone me?” 33 The Jews answered him, “It is not for a good work that we are going to stone you but for blasphemy, because you, being a man, make yourself God.” 34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, ‘I said, you are gods’? 35 If he called them gods to whom the word of God came—and Scripture cannot be broken— 36 do you say of him whom the Father consecrated and sent into the world, ‘You are blaspheming,’because I said, ‘I am the Son of God’? 37 If I am not doing the works of my Father, then do not believe me; 38 but if I do them, even though you do not believe me, believe the works, that you may know and understand that the Father is in me and I am in the Father.” 39 Again they sought to arrest him, but he escaped from their hands. 40 He went away again across the Jordan to the place where John had been baptizing at first, and there he remained. 41 And many came to him. And they said, “John did no sign, but everything that John said about this man was true.” 42 And many believed in him there.

So what must be interpreted by the statement of Jesus in

Luke 22:69

But from now on the Son of Man shall be seated at the right hand of the power of God.”

Is he rebelling against the Abrahamic God? or Who is he refering to as the power of God? Is it the Abrahamic God or the Perfect One (Father)?

astrocat5, saying that the Abrahamic God is the evil one is very much in tone with the Gnostics which implies that you don't completely accept the New Testament, but you don't completely accept the Gnostic view either and say much of it is garbage so why do you call yourself as a Gnostic. The Gnostics don't see the Perfect One as a Heavenly Father, they talk of him in terms of his pleroma with his Aeons and Jesus is conidered as one of his Aeon, he is the son of the Father and they also talk about Sophia and Carl Jung says that these archetypes exist in us as a pyschological part of humans and not as something existing in a Heaven completely detached from the Humans. Why can't you see this astrocat5?

immortal · June 22, 2012

I would love to see comparative religion classes brought into the schools where different worldviews and relics... commonalities and differences... and other dynamics and evolution of the worlds religions were explored objectively... Like a history class for world religions. I'd also like to see civics courses brought back, but that's another topic...

Daniel Dennet is absolutely right, I think such a study is very much necessary. There are many software tools and databases like the NCBI for molecular biologists in genomics and proteomics and even for physicists to interpret the data and test different hypothesis at the same time but scholars and the public don't get the same advantage to retrieve information from a single portal in religion.

Many times to discover commonalities and differences across different cultures the geography, linguistic, anthropology, iconography, specialization in the teachings of these different cultures is required to make inferences and to test a hypothesis, a scholar can not be an expert in all thse fields so we need to develop software tools to make the work of these scholars more easier so that they can test different hypothesis objectively based on observable evidence.

If we don't find contrary information against our beliefs which are normally the ones which we wish to be true we tend to think that our beliefs are accurate and never really try to know the truth.

Once we have studied it we can then introduce it in schools.

astrocat5 · June 22, 2012

"The Abrahamic God is the Devil, plain and simple. "

This sort of remark belongs in the pub. It would be impossible to discuss these issues sensibly using this sort of approach. Moderators on a philosophy forum would be down on this like a ton of bricks.

Do I believe in God?

I wish there was simple answer to this. But it's a subtle one, and obviously most people here already know unambiguosly whether He does, so my opinion hardly matters.

I will absent myself from this 'philosophy' forum and spend more time in the science section.

Jesus was the one who called the Abrahamic God 'The Devil.' (John 8, 44) and before that, when he was tempted. The Devil offered Jesus the world, if Jesus would adore him. Jesus told this story - but Jesus knew the world was made by God and God owned the world. But Jesus called the owner of the world the Devil. Go figure!

Okay, Jesus never said that he is the son of God.

So what must be interpreted by the statement of Jesus in

Luke 22:69

But from now on the Son of Man shall be seated at the right hand of the power of God."

Jesus didn't say that exactly. That is what the people 'htought' he said. If you can show me where Jesus said 'I am the Son of God,' I will abandon this thread

Is he rebelling against the Abrahamic God? or Who is he refering to as the power of God? Is it the Abrahamic God or the Perfect One (Father)?

'the power of God?' You think that's the same as saying 'I am the Son of God.'?

astrocat5, saying that the Abrahamic God is the evil one is very much in tone with the Gnostics which implies that you don't completely accept the New Testament, but you don't completely accept the Gnostic view either and say much of it is garbage so why do you call yourself as a Gnostic. The Gnostics don't see the Perfect One as a Heavenly Father, they talk of him in terms of his pleroma with his Aeons and Jesus is conidered as one of his Aeon, he is the son of the Father and they also talk about Sophia and Carl Jung says that these archetypes exist in us as a pyschological part of humans and not as something existing in a Heaven completely detached from the Humans. Why can't you see this astrocat5?

I said, Immortal, that much garbage has been written about Gnostics (that we think God is a demi-urge) We think he is the Devil. I'm talking about the God of Moses. Of course I accept the New Testament entirely. It's the Old Testament with which I have trouble. Now what Carrl Jung believed is neither here or there (to me.)

John 8, 44 tells me God is the Devil. Jesus told a story of being tempted - offered the whole world - by the Devil. Who owns the world, Immortal? Probably the same guy who made it - and Jesus (who well knew that God made the world) called him the Devil.

Why can't you see this, Immortal. Show me please, where Jesus says, 'I am the Son of God.' If he never said it, why not? He is tyhe Son of the Perfect One - Jesus was perfect. That's why he rose from the dead. You can't kill something that is perfect, Immortal. I'm sorry, but that's the truth. And what is the 'plereoma' of God? It's a word I have never heard.

What happened to me was - the day before I married, I smoked a joint lying back on my bed, and I found myself able to disembody. That is, my spirit came out of my body into the spirit world. Well, I asked to meet God, but I didn't like him. When I came back, I cried, because my faith had left me. My faith in God that is.

But not my faith in Jesus. Some time later I read an article in Time Magazine, about people like me, and they called us Gnostics. So that's why I call myself a Gnostic.

Gnosticism is something that happens to a person. It's not something that you're taught. It's Gnosis, the root word for Knowledge. You know something that other people don't - that God is no good. Sounds brutal, but that's the fact.

Put your faith in Jesus, Immortal - and find everlasting life.

immortal · June 23, 2012

I said, Immortal, that much garbage has been written about Gnostics (that we think God is a demi-urge) We think he is the Devil. I'm talking about the God of Moses. Of course I accept the New Testament entirely. It's the Old Testament with which I have trouble. Now what Carrl Jung believed is neither here or there (to me.)

Gnostics don't believe in the evil or the Devil. Evil == Ignorance. For them everything is good as said by Plato and that includes this world too. Seeing the world as evil sounds more like typical Buddhism.

John 8, 44 tells me God is the Devil. Jesus told a story of being tempted - offered the whole world - by the Devil. Who owns the world, Immortal? Probably the same guy who made it - and Jesus (who well knew that God made the world) called him the Devil.

I did read John 8 sometime back and it is considered to be an important chapter where Jesus reveals his own identity and the identity of the Father. But the orthodox Christians interpret it differently. They think he called the Satan as the Devil and not the Abrahamic God. What are your thoughts on it? What if you're wrong?

Why can't you see this, Immortal. Show me please, where Jesus says, 'I am the Son of God.' If he never said it, why not? He is tyhe Son of the Perfect One - Jesus was perfect. That's why he rose from the dead. You can't kill something that is perfect, Immortal. I'm sorry, but that's the truth. And what is the 'plereoma' of God? It's a word I have never heard.

'The pleroma of God' is the Kingdom of the Perfect One present in everyone of us, the heaven of the Perfect One is not above the sky but present in each of us, this is the basic teaching of the Gnostics, the sons of the Perfect One or the aeons exist in each one of us. This whole pantheon of aeons guided by the 'Perfect One' is the pleroma of God. Angels exist in us not in heaven above the sky. This is the worldview of the Gnostics, a view which drastically changes the way think about our place in the cosmos.

Gnosticism is something that happens to a person. It's not something that you're taught. It's Gnosis, the root word for Knowledge. You know something that other people don't - that God is no good. Sounds brutal, but that's the fact.

I believe in a higher power but I don't think anyone can say that this God is good or this God is bad. There are hardly a few people in the history of mankind who have reported to have made an ascent to heaven and you claim that you've met the Abrahmic God? How was he like?

Put your faith in Jesus, Immortal - and find everlasting life.

Why do you commit me to hold on to a particular belief? I told you I don't have any fundamental belief. Faith doesn't give you everlasting life.

hypervalent_iodine · June 23, 2012

!

Moderator Note

astrocat5,

Please have a read over our forum rules. We don't permit preaching or soap boxing here. The attempts at proselytizing needs to stop.

astrocat5 · June 24, 2012

You're not the only one who have responded with such rudeness, PeterJ. There have been many and its not anyone's mistake. The problem is with the kind of worldview which we are trying to establish nowadays. For example:- Roger Penrose to establish that strong AI is impossible had to run through Turing machines, theory of computability, microtubules in the brain and molecular neurobiology, Godel's theorems, noncomputable mathematics and quantum physics. Hufff.

Many scholars and philosophers are trying to establish the connection of Modern Physics with eastern mysticism. I cannot repeat my position about this again and again, for some I have responded to them through PM and others like TAR understand my position that what we learn from science is one thing and what we learn through religion is another. This is because of the way the world is.

So just as you say that there is a reason why all metaphysical statements are undecidable, the reason being the world is a unity. I think there is a reason why scientific realism might be false and the quantum physicist Bernard d'Espagnat has went on to say that "what we call empirical reality is only a state of mind". Here is his argument for holding this position --> http://www.scientifi...197911_0158.pdf.

From the begining of the civilization of mankind, all the Gnosis religions of the world and the Platonic realism of Neo-Platonism have been constantly stating that scientific realism is false and the doctrine of Non-dualism or Advaita which you're defending is one among those Gnosis traditions. Therefore if Unity has to exist or if the God of the Gnostics have to exist one of the necessary pre-condition for it is that scientific realism must be false. So I think there is a reason why scientific realism might be false its because our cosmos is established in such a way that when we perceive the world in one state of mind(not brain) we see the world of emiprical reality and when we perceive the world in a different state of the mind we see the world of platonic reality or the noumenal reality.

Therefore this justifies my statement that "Religion and Science is about different worlds." If some scholars and philosophers are very much desperate to connect scientific or rational concepts with religion then I and Schroedinger can cheerfully say that God help them. I for one is not going to talk about science or metaphysics when talking about God or Unity in the religious forums.

When you look at it from the Gnostic point of view they call the Abrahamic God as the demiurge and go on to say that he is the cause of the evil and when you look it from the Bible point of view they call the Perfect One as the deceitful Satan, the Lucifer. So how do you decide who is evil and who is good or who is perfect and who is imperfect?

Speaking as a Gnostic, we call the Abrahamic God (Kill me a son, Abraham - just kidding!) the Devil. Same as the God of Moses, same as your God! Who made the world, who's world it is. Who Jesus called the Devil when he (Jesus) was offered the world if he would fall down and adore him (the Devil). Who's world is it?

Your God made the world and every other material thing. Material - Jesus warned us against it. 'If you love this life you will lose it, but if you hate this life you will live forever in heaven.' Who said that? Jesus - I forget exactly where. Anybody know?

Gnostics don't believe in the evil or the Devil. Evil == Ignorance. For them everything is good as said by Plato and that includes this world too. Seeing the world as evil sounds more like typical Buddhism.

I did read John 8 sometime back and it is considered to be an important chapter where Jesus reveals his own identity and the identity of the Father. But the orthodox Christians interpret it differently. They think he called the Satan as the Devil and not the Abrahamic God. What are your thoughts on it? What if you're wrong?

'The pleroma of God' is the Kingdom of the Perfect One present in everyone of us, the heaven of the Perfect One is not above the sky but present in each of us, this is the basic teaching of the Gnostics, the sons of the Perfect One or the aeons exist in each one of us. This whole pantheon of aeons guided by the 'Perfect One' is the pleroma of God. Angels exist in us not in heaven above the sky. This is the worldview of the Gnostics, a view which drastically changes the way think about our place in the cosmos.

I believe in a higher power but I don't think anyone can say that this God is good or this God is bad. There are hardly a few people in the history of mankind who have reported to have made an ascent to heaven and you claim that you've met the Abrahmic God? How was he like?

Why do you commit me to hold on to a particular belief? I told you I don't have any fundamental belief. Faith doesn't give you everlasting life.

Your God made the world - an 'imperfect' place if ever there was one. God was made perfectly by the Perfect One - who lives and is perfectly happy in his spirit lifestyle. Being a spirit, he (or she) needs nothing. The Perfect One, our Heavenly Father ('Our Father, who art in Heaven...) made many perfect beings, angels and arch-angels. One of these Arch -angels, the perfect One's favorite - Lucifer, turned away from the Perfect One and made the world, offering it to Jesus (according to Jesus - the Son of the Perfect One) if Jesus would fall down and adore him - Lucifer!

Your religion will tell you 'You're Evil, and the World is Beautiful, that's why you don't fit in!'

But Gnostics say, 'The World is Evil, and You're Beautiful. That's why you don't fit in!'

Creating matter was not, in my opinion, pleasing to The Perfect One. Matter, after all, decays. Matter is not perfect. Only a spirit can be perfect. No, God's (or as I and Jesus would call him- the Devil's) world is evil. You don't believe me? Stand outside on a cold winter's day and then tell me how you feel. We build houses to keep the cold away. We don't want to experience just how evil this world is, so we 'insulate' ourselves so we don't have to notice. But if you're poor, you'll notice - but you'll go to Heaven automatically. Feel sorry for the rich man (eye of the needle)...

Daniel Dennet is absolutely right, I think such a study is very much necessary. There are many software tools and databases like the NCBI for molecular biologists in genomics and proteomics and even for physicists to interpret the data and test different hypothesis at the same time but scholars and the public don't get the same advantage to retrieve information from a single portal in religion.

Many times to discover commonalities and differences across different cultures the geography, linguistic, anthropology, iconography, specialization in the teachings of these different cultures is required to make inferences and to test a hypothesis, a scholar can not be an expert in all thse fields so we need to develop software tools to make the work of these scholars more easier so that they can test different hypothesis objectively based on observable evidence.

If we don't find contrary information against our beliefs which are normally the ones which we wish to be true we tend to think that our beliefs are accurate and never really try to know the truth.

Once we have studied it we can then introduce it in schools.

Well that's interesting, Immortal. I had no idea you could see things like that. Software would help, definitely in our research of other cultures, but as for scholars from the old days - I think we all now know more than them! I'm just saying, 'Put your faith in your fellow man (or woman) rather than the world.'

We Gnostics see the world as evil. It's a cruel place if you're poor.

immortal · June 24, 2012

Speaking as a Gnostic, we call the Abrahamic God (Kill me a son, Abraham - just kidding!) the Devil. Same as the God of Moses, same as your God! Who made the world, who's world it is. Who Jesus called the Devil when he (Jesus) was offered the world if he would fall down and adore him (the Devil). Who's world is it?

Your God made the world and every other material thing. Material - Jesus warned us against it. 'If you love this life you will lose it, but if you hate this life you will live forever in heaven.' Who said that? Jesus - I forget exactly where. Anybody know?

Your God made the world - an 'imperfect' place if ever there was one. God was made perfectly by the Perfect One - who lives and is perfectly happy in his spirit lifestyle. Being a spirit, he (or she) needs nothing. The Perfect One, our Heavenly Father ('Our Father, who art in Heaven...) made many perfect beings, angels and arch-angels. One of these Arch -angels, the perfect One's favorite - Lucifer, turned away from the Perfect One and made the world, offering it to Jesus (according to Jesus - the Son of the Perfect One) if Jesus would fall down and adore him - Lucifer!

Your religion will tell you 'You're Evil, and the World is Beautiful, that's why you don't fit in!'

But Gnostics say, 'The World is Evil, and You're Beautiful. That's why you don't fit in!'

Creating matter was not, in my opinion, pleasing to The Perfect One. Matter, after all, decays. Matter is not perfect. Only a spirit can be perfect. No, God's (or as I and Jesus would call him- the Devil's) world is evil. You don't believe me? Stand outside on a cold winter's day and then tell me how you feel. We build houses to keep the cold away. We don't want to experience just how evil this world is, so we 'insulate' ourselves so we don't have to notice. But if you're poor, you'll notice - but you'll go to Heaven automatically. Feel sorry for the rich man (eye of the needle)...

Gospel of Philip: "Light and darkness, life and death, right and left are mutually dependent; it is impossible for them to separate. Accordingly the 'good' are not good, the 'bad' are not bad, 'life' is not life, 'death' is not death." (Gospel of Philip 53:14-23).

There is no such thing as absolute evil or absolute good. Both good and evil originates from the Father. If you call yourself a Gnostic and believe in Jesus then you need to accept this if not you're going against the words of Jesus himself.

Gospel of Philip, "People cannot see anything in the real realm unless they become it...if you have seen the spirit, you have become the spirit; if you have seen Christ, you have become Christ; if you have seen the Father, you will become the Father" (Gospel of Philip 61:20-32 cf. 67:26-27)

John 10:34 Jesus answered them, “I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in my Father’s name bear witness about me, 26 but you do not believe because you are not part of my flock. 27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. 28 I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand. 30 I and the Father are one.”

Your Heavenly Father resides in everyone(not in Heaven) and who ever sees him becomes him. We are all Gods, sons of the most high. Jesus was a monist not a dualist. If you want eternal life you need to become the Father, eternal life doesn't come by faith. If you seperate the people, the world and the Father then you're a dualist which is contradictory to what Jesus taught. Do you really want to go against Jesus, the one whom you believe by stating that world is evil?

It seems you know nothing about your heavenly father and you know nothing about my God and what Jesus taught.

astrocat5 · June 27, 2012

What have the authors of the bible done to earn my respect?

In the Old Testament? Nothing. But I think you would be respectful if you met Jesus. That's the New Testament.

There is no such thing as absolute evil or absolute good. Both good and evil originates from the Father. If you call yourself a Gnostic and believe in Jesus then you need to accept this if not you're going against the words of Jesus himself.

Jesus was absolutely good, so is his father, our Heavenly Father.

The Devil, Lucifer - whatever you want to call him - is absolutely evil.

Your Heavenly Father resides in everyone(not in Heaven) and who ever sees him becomes him. We are all Gods, sons of the most high. Jesus was a monist not a dualist. If you want eternal life you need to become the Father, eternal life doesn't come by faith. If you seperate the people, the world and the Father then you're a dualist which is contradictory to what Jesus taught. Do you really want to go against Jesus, the one whom you believe by stating that world is evil?

Your God is the Devil. Your God made the world, didn't he? This world is imperfect, I would say. Your God makes imperfect things? I think your God is imperfect. Anything your God makes will self-destruct. And you think he resides in you?

It seems you know nothing about your heavenly father and you know nothing about my God and what Jesus taught.

I know all about our Heavenly Father, just as I know all about Jesus. And nowhere does Jesus say, 'I am the Son of God.'

immortal · June 28, 2012

Your God is the Devil. Your God made the world, didn't he? This world is imperfect, I would say. Your God makes imperfect things? I think your God is imperfect. Anything your God makes will self-destruct.

You don't get it, do you? Read Valentinian Monism. There is no such thing as evil everything resides in the pleroma of the Father.

It is worth noting that Valentinianism shows an astonishing degree of similarity to another monistic system, the Advaita Vedanta school of Indian philosophy. In Advaita, the material world is an illusion (maya) attributed to ignorance (avidya) of the true reality. Through knowledge (jnana) of the ultimate reality (brahman), the world of multiplicity vanishes. True redemption is the knowledge of one's true nature.

Who do you think the God of the Advaita is? It is the Sun God and if the Father of the Valentinians shows an astonishing degree of similarity to the Sun God then what must be concluded? The 'Immortal Perfect One' is the Sun God. These are not baseless assertions. This is not preaching. Valentinian Monism is well established by reputed scholars like Elaine Pagels and others and it is these Gnostic scholars who have established the cosmogony of the Holy Father and this cosmogony as an astonishing degree of similarity with the cosmogony of the Sun God.

And you think he resides in you?

Yes, the Sun God resides in every living thing.

The Gospel of Philip argues that "Christ has each within him, whether human being or angel or mystery" (Gospel of Philip 56:14-15).

I know all about our Heavenly Father, just as I know all about Jesus.

Are you sure?

astrocat5 · July 6, 2012

You don't get it, do you? Read Valentinian Monism. There is no such thing as evil everything resides in the pleroma of the Father.

Now why would I, a Gnostic and a Dualist - be interested in a book on 'monism.'

Who do you think the God of the Advaita is? It is the Sun God and if the Father of the Valentinians shows an astonishing degree of similarity to the Sun God then what must be concluded? The 'Immortal Perfect One' is the Sun God. These are not baseless assertions. This is not preaching. Valentinian Monism is well established by reputed scholars like Elaine Pagels and others and it is these Gnostic scholars who have established the cosmogony of the Holy Father and this cosmogony as an astonishing degree of similarity with the cosmogony of the Sun God.

Look - a genuine Gostic is a Dualist, with no links to your 'Monism.' That's your Christian thinking - one God, one wife, one life, one pool, one house, one car etc. etc. You people totally fail to grasp that every thing comes in two - man, woman - Earth , Moon, hot cold, cars pollution - it goes on and on. All the Eastern Religions are Dualist. so was Jesus. If someone writes a book on Monism, and claim to be a Gnostic - you can tell they're faking it.

There is a lot of garbage written about Gnostics, and that's what I'm here to straighten up. We believe in Jesus and his Heavenly Father - The Perfect One. No, we don't worship the sun (Sol) tho' we do, of course - have our own Cosmology. It's you who have everything backwards. You have a Cosmos operated by anti-gravity and ours is run by Gravity.

Gnosticism is granted to a person. It's 'gnosis' (root word of 'knowedge') and you suddenly realise God is no good. I actually

started crying - a grown man, but it was a very moving moment. You can't know The Father. That's not me - that's Jesus. 'But I and the father are the same.' Jesus went on.

If you know Jesus, you know The Heavenly Father. Your God is jealous, and vengeful with it. Jesus taught love and forgiveness. Are you sure you know God? The Heavenly Father, I mean - the Father of Jesus.

Jesus rejected the world 'My kingdom is not of this world.' preferring to be poor, relying on the ordinary people to feed him, etc. We Gnostics think the world is Evil.

Organised religion will tell you 'You're evil and the world is beautiful - that's why you don't fit in. We Gnostics say the world is Evil and you're Beautiful, that's why you don't fit in. Jesus felt the same, I'm sure.

The world is Evil? Sure, if you have to spend your life in a wheelchair or hospital bed. Or if you can't make ends meet. There are countless ways to reject God. I hope it happens to you, but you retain your love of Jesus. If you truly loved Jesus, and were familiar with the New Testament, I think you could easily reject God.

Free yourself - reject God - just go with Jesus. He won't let you down. Thjat's my plan, anyways.

immortal · July 6, 2012

All the Eastern Religions are Dualist. so was Jesus.

That's not true, the Non-dual of Advaita existed in the east long before Jesus was born.

You can believe in dualism or whatever you want but just let you know that the scholars in the field think otherwise.

astrocat5 · July 9, 2012

That's not true, the Non-dual of Advaita existed in the east long before Jesus was born.

You can believe in dualism or whatever you want but just let you know that the scholars in the field think otherwise.

Of course I'm a dualist - I'm Gnostic.

There are two of everything, Immortal - I realise as a 'monist' you think there's only one of everything. 'Scholars in the field...' don't make me laugh. Who cares about the Sun God? Not me, that's for sure.

I have bigger fish to fry.

I'm trying to explain Gnosticism. It comes from the Greek word 'gnosis,' and is the root word for 'knowledge.' What is it that a Gnostic knows? We know, for example - that Jesus was the Son of the Perfect One and was therefore perfect.

God isn't perfect, and nothing he makes is perfect - I hope we can agree.

Now, if Jesus was the Son of God, he wouldn't be perfect. He would have been like any one of us, weak and useless.

immortal · July 9, 2012

Of course I'm a dualist - I'm Gnostic.

There are two of everything, Immortal - I realise as a 'monist' you think there's only one of everything. 'Scholars in the field...' don't make me laugh. Who cares about the Sun God? Not me, that's for sure.

I have bigger fish to fry.

I'm trying to explain Gnosticism. It comes from the Greek word 'gnosis,' and is the root word for 'knowledge.' What is it that a Gnostic knows? We know, for example - that Jesus was the Son of the Perfect One and was therefore perfect.

God isn't perfect, and nothing he makes is perfect - I hope we can agree.

Now, if Jesus was the Son of God, he wouldn't be perfect. He would have been like any one of us, weak and useless.

Elaine Pagels is a highly respected scholar in the field and we know what Gnosticism is. Some of the things which you say are correct and some not much.

http://en.wikipedia....he_Gnostic_Paul

The Gnostic Paul is a book by Elaine Pagels, a scholar of gnosticism and professor of religion at Princeton University. In the work, Pagels considers each of the non-pastoral Pauline Epistles, and questions about their authorship. The core of the book examines how the Pauline epistles were read by 2nd century Valentinian gnostics and demonstrates that Paul could be considered a proto-gnostic as well as a proto-Catholic.

Her treatment involves reading the Pauline corpus as being dual layered between a Pneumatic, esoteric Christianity and a Psychic, exoteric Christianity.

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