Christian Evidence

[Moontanman]

How does what you get in return when you give more faith also evidence other religions?

 

Mainly because they get the same things out of their religion that you do...

 

The fact that you get what you give is of course not "solid" evidence to any of the parties. Only if it shows true in that religion and what it is you realize and understand. But on the other side this acts as nothing to atheist. They can ponder the truthful nature of the statement itself.

 

I'm not sure what you are saying here...

[scourge]

Mainly because they get the same things out of their religion that you do...

 

Maybe... But thats just an assumption they may not. You haven't been inside my head and you have not been in theirs. Besides the fact itself you get what you give does not act as evidence. Only what is contained within it. But that is just as useless to atheist because they dont see things that way because they havent given the faith to.

[Moontanman]

Maybe... But thats just an assumption they may not. You haven't been inside my head and you have not been in theirs. Besides the fact itself you get what you give does not act as evidence. Only what is contained within it. But that is just as useless to atheist because they dont see things that way because they havent given the faith to.

 

 

Again, the insulting assumption I have never given religion or faith a try.

 

So far all we have to go on is the accounts given to people who have converted, even Buddhists, who is i am not mistaken do not believe in a personal god, report the same peace and joy and change of world view that other religions claim you get by "truly" believing and converting...

Edited April 18, 2012 by Moontanman

[scourge]

@scourge

 

Evidence is not a belief.

 

Evidence is not a desire.

 

Evidence is not an opinion.

 

Evidence is not a suspicion.

 

Evidence is not writings of unproven provenance.

 

Evidence is not a passionately declared statement.

 

Evidence is not a majority opinion.

 

Evidence is not a minority opinion.

 

Evidence is measurable, repeatable observation consistent with a hypothesis.

 

So what is your evidence against atheism? Remember, it must take heed of the above.

 

I have acknowledged that i don't have the evidence that you want me to give you. The issue with it is that you run off of physical evidence that you can see, feel and touch while being sure your not hallucinating. We operate on something we hold "higher" than direct physical evidence. I have no case against atheism itself. Nor a case i could present to an atheist as a case for theism. Only my account. But this is insignifigant. So no argument between the two is possible.

 

Again, the insulting assumption I have never given religion or faith a try.

 

So far all we have to go on is the accounts given to people who have converted, even Buddhists, who is i am not mistaken do not believe in a personal god, report the same peace and joy and change of world view that other religions claim you get by "truly" believing and converting...

 

Again, the assumption that i am trying to insult you and say that you never gave us a look.

[Moontanman]

Again, the assumption that i am trying to insult you and say that you never gave us a look.

 

 

Again with a condescending assumption.... get this into your world view, a great many atheists have indeed had faith at one time or another, i grew up very religious, I loved it until the contradictions and hypocritical assertions got thick as granite... I am not a kid who has just started to look, i am an old man who has looked very hard, when you are old it's difficult to not look very hard.

 

If you have doubts just keep telling your self it's Jesus and eventually you will believe it? Horse feathers... I take a dim view of lies and lying to myself is just unacceptable...

[scourge]

Again with a condescending assumption....

 

With a condescending assumption to match it.

[Moontanman]

With a condescending assumption to match it.

 

 

Feel free to point out what my condescending assumption is... Just claiming I am making one is not evidence I am. I pointed yours out, you assume that because I do not believe i have in fact never given your religion a try when in fact i have.

 

This assumption that if anyone would just really try to have faith they would see it your way is not just condescending it is arrogance of the very sort that brings on the very worst of what religion is...

 

Not only that but you are also assuming that all who call themselves Christians agree with your appraisal which is also false, Christians have been dehumanizing people who also are Christians for almost the entire life of the religion. It still goes on today, the Jehovah's witnesses claim that the baptists are wrong the Mormons claim they are wrong the Catholics claim they are wrong bullshit... only a secular government that protects everyone's rights prevents it all from going back to killing each other over who is right and that's just Christians... stir the rest of the worlds religions into it and you get a nightmare that never ends...

[John Cuthber]

1 I have acknowledged that i don't have the evidence that you want me to give you.

2 The issue with it is that you run off of physical evidence that you can see, feel and touch while being sure your not hallucinating.

3 We operate on something we hold "higher" than direct physical evidence.

4 I have no case against atheism itself.

5 Nor a case i could present to an atheist as a case for theism.

 

Re 1

Great! Now you just have to accept that the evidence we want is the only thing that can properly be called evidence (as opposed to faith, assumptions etc)

Re 2

Yes, that's right we want evidence that deserves the name.

Re 3

Who is "we" in this case and on what valid basis can you assume that you are operating on something "higher"? To me it's clear that it's much of a lower rank- it's superstition.

re 4

Great, now you just need to accept the idea that you cannot reject the null hypothesis i.e. that there is no God.

Re 5

So, no evidence then?

[scourge]

2 Corinthians 4:3-4

And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing. The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel that displays the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.

[John Cuthber]

It's true.

There is none so blind as he who will not see that the root of his faith has nothing to do with evidence.

 

Now, apart from an old book, do you have any evidence?

[scourge]

It's true.

There is none so blind as he who will not see that the root of his faith has nothing to do with evidence.

 

Now, apart from an old book, do you have any evidence?

 

For my case? Or for christianity as a whole?

[Moontanman]

2 Corinthians 4:3-4

And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing. The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel that displays the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.

 

 

And you said you were not here to convert us... God, at least your version of him, is a monster who delights in trickery and in making the goal unobtainable, do you really think it's fair to blind the very people who need the sight the most? So sad....

[JustinW]

John,

 

Now, apart from an old book, do you have any evidence?

Does circumstantial count? Or are you looking for the hard stuff?

 

If circumstantial at least counts a little, I believe that Moontanman hinted at it here in post 254:

So far all we have to go on is the accounts given to people who have converted, even Buddhists, who is i am not mistaken do not believe in a personal god, report the same peace and joy and change of world view that other religions claim you get by "truly" believing and converting...

The fact that people all over the world report the same thing oughta mean something. At least it fits the criteria that Ophi layed down for evidence here:

Evidence is measurable, repeatable observation consistent with a hypothesis.

Near death experiences ar also measurable, repeatedly observed, consistent with a hypothesis in the supernatural. So even though not physical evidence, circumstantial seems to be plausable.

 

Or we can go with my first thought, that it could all come from a neurological reaction.

 

 

Ophiolite,

 

So what is your evidence against atheism?

Interesting question... What your evidence for atheism? Just the lack of evidence for theism? That doesn't seem quite fair.

 

 

Atheist churches keep popping up and I'm wondering if the sandwhiches are any good. I'm curious of what they talk about. I would be highly dissapointed if it had nothing to do with a supernatural mystery.

 

 

 

Moontanman,

And you said you were not here to convert us... God, at least your version of him, is a monster who delights in trickery and in making the goal unobtainable, do you really think it's fair to blind the very people who need the sight the most? So sad....

I always enjoy the inspiration of your words.

[Moontanman]

John,

 

Does circumstantial count? Or are you looking for the hard stuff?

 

Hard stuff please...

 

If circumstantial at least counts a little, I believe that Moontanman hinted at it here in post 254:The fact that people all over the world report the same thing oughta mean something. At least it fits the criteria that Ophi layed down for evidence here: Near death experiences ar also measurable, repeatedly observed, consistent with a hypothesis in the supernatural. So even though not physical evidence, circumstantial seems to be plausable.

 

Or we can go with my first thought, that it could all come from a neurological reaction.

 

No doubt...

 

 

Ophiolite,

 

Interesting question... What your evidence for atheism? Just the lack of evidence for theism? That doesn't seem quite fair.

 

 

Atheist churches keep popping up and I'm wondering if the sandwhiches are any good. I'm curious of what they talk about. I would be highly dissapointed if it had nothing to do with a supernatural mystery.

 

Atheist Church? Churches fried chicken? what are you talking about?

 

Moontanman,

 

I always enjoy the inspiration of your words.

 

I try...

 

Post #248 is a bit better as evidence goes...

 

I understand that and I disagree, it would be quite easy for god to provide real evidence of his existence, he has in the past if you believe his holy books, now days a miracle could be documented for all time, simply stopping the sun in the sky would be quite convincing, exchange the orbits of Mars and Venus so they can be inhabited without disturbing the orbits of the other planets would be an absolute miracle, and don't say we can't demand a test of god, he has done miraculous things in the past, very distant past, not within the time frame that would allow us to know it to have happened, wild claims are easy to make, showing them be real is more difficult, but aside from that you are offering it as evidence of your god and as I said it supports the notion of all gods not just yours...

[seriously disabled]

I think this video sums up what Christians believe in:

 

Edited April 19, 2012 by seriously disabled

[Ophiolite]

Ophiolite,

Interesting question... What your evidence for atheism? Just the lack of evidence for theism? That doesn't seem quite fair.

Scourge stated that (s)he had evidence against atheism. (I presumed this to mean against the atheist position, since clearly atheism exists.) Therefore it was perfectly fair to ask be shown this evidence. It does not require a reciprocal action, since I made no statement about having evidence against theism.

[Moontanman]

I think this video sums up what Christians believe in:

 

 

 

Great video, one of my favorites...

[njaohnt]

Atheist Church? Churches fried chicken? what are you talking about?

Me too. I think that he is talking about places just for atheists.

[Moontanman]

Me too. I think that he is talking about places just for atheists.

 

 

I can in all honesty say I have never seen or even heard of such a place, I doubt they exist...

[njaohnt]

The issue with it is that you run off of physical evidence that you can see, feel and touch while being sure your not hallucinating.

Oh good! that's what they want? I have some evidence like that(if you were there, which I wasn't, which is why I doubt you'll take this as a miracle)!

Evidence

There was someone who was getting a large needle for cancer. The doctor was unable to put the needle in. It was not going in.

Later they realized that the cancer was gone.

A miracle?

Oh, and here is some more evidence that you can feel and touch(if you were there).

Evidence

Maybe you should watch all of them...

A fake?

Edited April 19, 2012 by njaohnt

[Moontanman]

Oh good! that's what they want? I have some evidence like that(if you were there, which I wasn't, which is why I doubt you'll take this as a miracle)!

Evidence

There was someone who was getting a large needle for cancer. The doctor was unable to put the needle in. It was not going in.

Later they realized that the cancer was gone.

A miracle?

Oh, and here is some more evidence that you can feel and touch(if you were there).

Evidence

Maybe you should watch all of them...

A fake?

 

 

njaohnt, believe it or not cancers do disappear on their own and it happens completely at random and naturally. I'll watch your videos as soon as my computer stops stuttering...

[imatfaal]

I can in all honesty say I have never seen or even heard of such a place, I doubt they exist...

 

Not that it's a church ... but Conway Hall is as close as it gets in the UK

 

[scourge]

And you said you were not here to convert us... God, at least your version of him, is a monster who delights in trickery and in making the goal unobtainable, do you really think it's fair to blind the very people who need the sight the most? So sad....

 

The reference isn't to god himself but to evil/satan.

[ydoaPs]

Oh good! that's what they want? I have some evidence like that(if you were there, which I wasn't, which is why I doubt you'll take this as a miracle)!

Evidence

There was someone who was getting a large needle for cancer. The doctor was unable to put the needle in. It was not going in.

Later they realized that the cancer was gone.

A miracle?

Oh, and here is some more evidence that you can feel and touch(if you were there).

Evidence

Maybe you should watch all of them...

A fake?

 

As Tim Minchin would say, you "significantly underestimate the total number of things". If something has a one in a million chance of occurring and it's given ten billion tries, it'd be a miracle if it DIDN'T happen!

 

And for your enjoyment:

 

[Cap'n Refsmmat]

Why does a miracle imply the existence of a Christian god, rather than merely implying that there are parts of reality we do not fully understand? God is not the only explanatory option; it could be any other force that we don't yet understand, including natural ones.

 

"I don't know why that happened" doesn't mean "God must have done it." Not until we understand the universe well enough to eliminate every other possibility.