Christian Evidence

[Moontanman]

The reference isn't to god himself but to evil/satan.

 

 

“Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?

Then he is not omnipotent.

Is he able, but not willing?

Then he is malevolent.

Is he both able and willing?

Then whence cometh evil?

Is he neither able nor willing?

Then why call him God?”

 

Epicurus

 

Oh good! that's what they want? I have some evidence like that(if you were there, which I wasn't, which is why I doubt you'll take this as a miracle)!

Evidence

There was someone who was getting a large needle for cancer. The doctor was unable to put the needle in. It was not going in.

Later they realized that the cancer was gone.

A miracle?

Oh, and here is some more evidence that you can feel and touch(if you were there).

Evidence

Maybe you should watch all of them...

A fake?

 

 

njaohnt.... How insulting, the program actually admits they cannot prove anything at around 07:00, if you seriously cannot do any better than that then I don't see any reason to continue to even discuss this. i will point out that the bible is demonstrably wrong about so much it calls into question everything else to anyone who has any flicker of rational thought. just because some of the people and places in the bible can be verified does not prove anything. I could write a story about alien invasion of New York City and use the names of real people, real places and even real events but it wouldn't the make the alien invasion real. I mean seriously.... I want my 10 minutes back on that one...

[John Cuthber]

Oh good! that's what they want? I have some evidence like that(if you were there, which I wasn't, which is why I doubt you'll take this as a miracle)!

Evidence

There was someone who was getting a large needle for cancer. The doctor was unable to put the needle in. It was not going in.

Later they realized that the cancer was gone.

A miracle?

Oh, and here is some more evidence that you can feel and touch(if you were there).

Evidence

Maybe you should watch all of them...

A fake?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spontaneous_remission

[JustinW]

Ophiolite,

 

Scourge stated that (s)he had evidence against atheism. (I presumed this to mean against the atheist position, since clearly atheism exists.) Therefore it was perfectly fair to ask be shown this evidence. It does not require a reciprocal action, since I made no statement about having evidence against theism.

Ah, I concede to your fabulous point. You have my humblest of appologies.

 

Moontanman,

 

Hard stuff please...

Aww, where's the fun in that?

 

 

Atheist Church? Churches fried chicken? what are you talking about?

You didn't know there were atheist churches? Once I saw that atheists were getting organized I wondered what their organizations were like. But since I don't go to religious churches I saw no reason to go to non religious ones either. I was just curious. Since there are so many atheists in the science community, I figured there might be some that attend these functions and could give some insight on the goings on behind closed doors. I'm just as afraid of non religious cults as I am religious ones. And I wouldn't take this part of my post to seriously. If only I could project facial expression and tone of voice with every sentence. I think people would get tired of Emoticons pretty quick if I did though.

 

I try...

You succeed sir. I was once told though that moderation is the key to success. I wonder if there is any truth to that? I guess it depends on what the topic is. Whether it's religion or atheism, I wonder how moderation would affect one's outlook on life. I believe that everyone would be agnostic then. What do you think?

 

 

njaohnt,

Me too. I think that he is talking about places just for atheists.

 

http://firstchurchofatheism.com/

 

http://www.rationalresponders.com/church_of_atheism

 

http://churchofatheism.webs.com/

 

Do you need more? And meant to include organizations as well, but the churches seemed so ironic that I couldn't help myself.

 

 

Moontanman,

 

i will point out that the bible is demonstrably wrong about so much it calls into question everything else to anyone who has any flicker of rational thought.

THIS is an excellent point. Everytime I use it though it seems to be ignored. I wish you better luck.

[Moontanman]

Ophiolite,

 

Ah, I concede to your fabulous point. You have my humblest of appologies.

 

Moontanman,

 

Aww, where's the fun in that?

 

 

You didn't know there were atheist churches? Once I saw that atheists were getting organized I wondered what their organizations were like. But since I don't go to religious churches I saw no reason to go to non religious ones either. I was just curious. Since there are so many atheists in the science community, I figured there might be some that attend these functions and could give some insight on the goings on behind closed doors. I'm just as afraid of non religious cults as I am religious ones. And I wouldn't take this part of my post to seriously. If only I could project facial expression and tone of voice with every sentence. I think people would get tired of Emoticons pretty quick if I did though.

 

You succeed sir. I was once told though that moderation is the key to success. I wonder if there is any truth to that? I guess it depends on what the topic is. Whether it's religion or atheism, I wonder how moderation would affect one's outlook on life. I believe that everyone would be agnostic then. What do you think?

 

 

njaohnt,

 

 

http://firstchurchofatheism.com/

 

http://www.rationalresponders.com/church_of_atheism

 

http://churchofatheism.webs.com/

 

Do you need more? And meant to include organizations as well, but the churches seemed so ironic that I couldn't help myself.

 

 

Moontanman,

 

THIS is an excellent point. Everytime I use it though it seems to be ignored. I wish you better luck.

 

 

Just goes to show that anyone can claim to believe anything, your atheism churches are just scams looking to do the same thing religion does, i am sure they don't do as well but who knows i am sure there are atheist dumbasses as well as theist dumbasses...

[njaohnt]

njaohnt, believe it or not cancers do disappear on their own and it happens completely at random and naturally. I'll watch your videos as soon as my computer stops stuttering...

 

Yeah, but why did the needle not go in? I think God healed him.

 

As Tim Minchin would say, you "significantly underestimate the total number of things". If something has a one in a million chance of occurring and it's given ten billion tries, it'd be a miracle if it DIDN'T happen!

 

And for your enjoyment:

 

What? What had a one in a million chance of happening, and was given ten billion tries?

[mooeypoo]

What? What had a one in a million chance of happening, and was given ten billion tries?

 

Every step in the evolution of life.

[njaohnt]

Why does a miracle imply the existence of a Christian god, rather than merely implying that there are parts of reality we do not fully understand? God is not the only explanatory option; it could be any other force that we don't yet understand, including natural ones.

 

"I don't know why that happened" doesn't mean "God must have done it." Not until we understand the universe well enough to eliminate every other possibility.

Such as what? What would force would do such things?

Let's say that He does exist, for sure, for now.

How, are you going to go to heaven if you keep on saying that there could be some other force doing it. You're now going against what atheism is all about. Evidence. If there is evidence for a god, and you continue to say "Why does a miracle imply the existence of a Christian god" that is worse than saying "I think that the evidence of God is greater than the evidence of atheism".

Do you see what you're saying here?

Do all you people who pressed +1 realize this?

 

njaohnt.... How insulting, the program actually admits they cannot prove anything at around 07:00, if you seriously cannot do any better than that then I don't see any reason to continue to even discuss this. i will point out that the bible is demonstrably wrong about so much it calls into question everything else to anyone who has any flicker of rational thought. just because some of the people and places in the bible can be verified does not prove anything. I could write a story about alien invasion of New York City and use the names of real people, real places and even real events but it wouldn't the make the alien invasion real. I mean seriously.... I want my 10 minutes back on that one...

Maybe you should spend another 10 minutes...

Did I not say "A fake?" at the end of my post?

You can make a fake, but what do you want? The reason why I think that God doesn't make tons of miracles like you say He should, is because then you would get people like Cap'n Refsmmat. The less a miracle happens, the more people who see the miracle, take it as a miracle.

 

Every step in the evolution of life.

Then why aren't new animals coming out? It seems more like we were given 1 chance...all these years, what animals have come out?

[Arete]

what animals have come out?

 

For a start, these ones:

fruit flies

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1558-5646.2010.01096.x/abstract;jsessionid=E1ED0862DC9DE17B4BCA27A7D467DEAE.d02t04?userIsAuthenticated=false&deniedAccessCustomisedMessage=

birds

http://rspb.royalsocietypublishing.org/content/early/2011/11/25/rspb.2011.2170.short

mosquitoes

http://www.sciencemag.org/content/330/6003/512.short

shrimp

http://epic.awi.de/22811/

fish

http://www.springerlink.com/content/uml7526616862072/

lizards

http://www.biomedcentral.com/1471-2148/11/347

 

you get the idea.

 

Here's an overview of incipient speciation in general

http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/CB/CB910.html

[Moontanman]

Yeah, but why did the needle not go in? I think God healed him.

 

I think Krishna healed him... show how I am wrong...

Edited April 20, 2012 by Moontanman

[Cap'n Refsmmat]

Such as what? What would force would do such things?

Let's say that He does exist, for sure, for now.

How, are you going to go to heaven if you keep on saying that there could be some other force doing it. You're now going against what atheism is all about. Evidence. If there is evidence for a god, and you continue to say "Why does a miracle imply the existence of a Christian god" that is worse than saying "I think that the evidence of God is greater than the evidence of atheism".

Do you see what you're saying here?

Do all you people who pressed +1 realize this?

I don't see your point.

 

A miracle is, by definition, some event so spectacular that it can't be explained by any known cause. That leaves unknown or supernatural causes. So, by definition, I can't tell you what force would do such things. To claim that no natural force in existence could possibly cause such events to occur, however, is to claim that we fully understand the natural world and can describe the behavior of every natural system in existence.

 

Not terribly long in the past, lightning had no known natural cause, and was attributed to a variety of deities. But it was not evidence for their existence. It was evidence for our ignorance.

[doG]

You're now going against what atheism is all about. Evidence.

Wow. You're really having a hard time grasping what the term atheist means huh? Atheism IS NOT about evidence, it's about the lack of evidence to support any conclusion that one or more deities exist. Theists conclude that there is in fact one or more deities based on faith alone. Atheists refuse to do the same because they are holding out for evidence, real verifiable, testable evidence.

[zapatos]

Wow. You're really having a hard time grasping what the term atheist means huh? Atheism IS NOT about evidence, it's about the lack of evidence to support any conclusion that one or more deities exist. Theists conclude that there is in fact one or more deities based on faith alone. Atheists refuse to do the same because they are holding out for evidence, real verifiable, testable evidence.

I know you didn't mean it this way but the wording sounded strange to me...

[doG]

I know you didn't mean it this way but the wording sounded strange to me...

Depends on the view that atheist simply means not-theist. Atheists are not-theist because there is no evidence to support being theist.

[zapatos]

Depends on the view that atheist simply means not-theist. Atheists are not-theist because there is no evidence to support being theist.

Yes, I understood what you were saying. I wasn't questioning that. I was just pointing out that in your post you said, among other things:

 

'Atheism is not about evidence, it is about wanting evidence.'

 

I just thought it was an interesting way to say it.

[mooeypoo]

This is very relevant, and very much worth the careful inspection, especially in light of the latest few posts:

 

 

[ydoaPs]

Yeah, but why did the needle not go in? I think God healed him.

I think Krishna healed him... show how I am wrong...

 

You're wrong; It was extraterrestrials!

 

 

 

What? What had a one in a million chance of happening, and was given ten billion tries?

 

Spontaneous remission

Edited April 21, 2012 by ydoaPs

[njaohnt]

Here's the excuse for God not being "here" enough.

Evidence:

I believe that God does things for a better world. So, therefore:

• He gives us a the ability to do what ever we want (would you want to be a puppet)?

1. Giving us this ability includes being evil, and not believing Him
2. Thus some people will be a "skeptic"(the next evidence area will explain why I put skeptic in quotes) and not believe him, and others will not follow Him

• He doesn't want anyone to go to Hell (no impurities can be let in heaven, otherwise it would become like the earth with its evil people)

1. The more a miracle happens, the less it seems like a miracle(consider 'Why does a miracle imply the existence of a Christian god, rather than merely implying that there are parts of reality we do not fully understand? God is not the only explanatory option; it could be any other force that we don't yet understand, including natural ones. "I don't know why that happened" doesn't mean "God must have done it." Not until we understand the universe well enough to eliminate every other possibility. ', imagine if things like these happened all the time! Everyone would think like this. If this happens to Christians only, then how come it doesn't it happens to Atheists(prove me wrong)? If you're seriously going to say that some force allows this to happen to Christians only, then wouldn't the theory that God did it have more evidence?
2. Thus, less miracles, more Christians (though, God does have to keep the miracles going, or no one would believe that He is real). This explains why He doesn't do every miracle that would make the world better(except for the ones that would lead more people to Him).

I think that this makes it so that no one can ever put evidence against God. The only reason why anyone wouldn't believe in Christ after reading this, is because they say it lacks evidence. Don't you agree?

More Evidence:

Are you a "skeptic"? If so are you a good skeptic, or a bad skeptic? I will show you the difference in a sort of a parable way.

Let's say there is a miner. He used to mine in a old mine, but now that mine has closed. He goes to another mine for a job.

"Okay," said his manager, "I always go to the mineral scientist to check if what I have is what I think it is, even if I'm sure I know what it is. I recommend that you do that, too, even though he charge 5% of its value."

The miner never bothered to check his minerals because he thought that he was experienced enough to skip the step.

One day he came across some spinel. As usual he went to the desk to pay for it, and he would go off to his shop to sell it.

But the cashier said "Hey, why are trying to trick me? Don't you know that they have no tolerance for this? You're going to get fired!". The manager came and immediately fired him. The spinel was a ruby.

(this is just considering that God is true, if you don't believe Him, allow and study over the spinel being a ruby, please)

 

 

The miner is a bad skeptic, the first manager is a good skeptic, the 5% payment is the time and effort it takes to create a proper theory, the cashier is the angels of God, the second manager is God, the spinel that the miner had seen before was the correct theories of the Atheists, the ruby is Christianity, the thinking that the ruby was spinel is the the incorrect theories of the Atheists, and getting fired was going to Hell.

Let's use a true story to prove that. I heard of a scientist who the found a new mineral. It looked a lot like a lot like another mineral. He was a good skeptic, and did tests to find out that it wasn't what he expected. I will explain why you Atheists are bad skeptics (or not even skeptics at all) shortly...

 

 

Anyway, do you think that Charles Darwin went into making his theory saying "I don't know what happened earlier so I will find out."? No! He said "Christianity has insufficient evidence, I will figure out what happened". This is a predetermination. You cannot create a proper theory through predetermination. By doing this you base your theory on biases. To create a proper theory you need to let in all possibilities (being open-minded), and study them, which many Atheists have failed to do. I don't think that Charles Darwin tried to figure out how Christianity could/is true. I will explain why you Atheists are bad skeptics (or not even skeptics at all) shortly...

Edited June 26, 2012 by njaohnt

[Moontanman]

Here's the excuse for God not being "here" enough.

Evidence:

I believe that God does things for a better world. So, therefore:

• He gives us a the ability to do what ever we want (would you want to be a puppet)?

1. Giving us this ability includes being evil, and not believing Him
2. Thus some people will be a "skeptic"(the next evidence area will explain why I put skeptic in quotes) and not believe him, and others will not follow Him

• He doesn't want anyone to go to Hell (no impurities can be let in heaven, otherwise it would become like the earth with its evil people)

1. The more a miracle happens, the less it seems like a miracle(consider 'Why does a miracle imply the existence of a Christian god, rather than merely implying that there are parts of reality we do not fully understand? God is not the only explanatory option; it could be any other force that we don't yet understand, including natural ones.<br style="line-height: 16px; background-color: rgb(243, 249, 246); "><br style="line-height: 16px; background-color: rgb(243, 249, 246); ">"I don't know why that happened" doesn't mean "God must have done it." Not until we understand the universe well enough to eliminate every other possibility. ', imagine if things like these happened all the time! Everyone would think like this. If this happens to Christians only, then how come it doesn't it happens to Atheists(prove me wrong)? If you're seriously going to say that some force allows this to happen to Christians only, then wouldn't the theory that God did it have more evidence?
2. Thus, less miracles, more Christians (though, God does have to keep the miracles going, or no one would believe that He is real). This explains why He doesn't do every miracle that would make the world better(except for the ones that would lead more people to Him).

I think that this makes it so that no one can ever put evidence against God. The only reason why anyone wouldn't believe in Christ after reading this, is because they say it lacks evidence. Don't you agree?

More Evidence:

Are you a "skeptic"? If so are you a good skeptic, or a bad skeptic? I will show you the difference in a sort of a parable way.

Let's say there is a miner. He used to mine in a old mine, but now that mine has closed. He goes to another mine for a job.

"Okay," said his manager, "I always go to the mineral scientist to check if what I have is what I think it is, even if I'm sure I know what it is. I recommend that you do that, too, even though he charge 5% of its value."

The miner never bothered to check his minerals because he thought that he was experienced enough to skip the step.

One day he came across some spinel. As usual he went to the desk to pay for it, and he would go off to his shop to sell it.

But the cashier said "Hey, why are trying to trick me? Don't you know that they have no tolerance for this? You're going to get fired!". The manager came and immediately fired him. The spinel was a ruby.

(this is just considering that God is true, if you don't believe Him, allow and study over the spinel being a ruby, please)

The miner is a bad skeptic, the first manager is a good skeptic, the 5% payment is the time and effort it takes to create a proper theory, the cashier is the angels of God, the second manager is God, the spinel that the miner had seen before was the correct theories of the Atheists, the ruby is Christianity, the thinking that the ruby was spinel is the the incorrect theories of the Atheists, and getting fired was going to Hell.

Let's use a true story to prove that. I heard of a scientist who the found a new mineral. It looked a lot like a lot like another mineral. He was a good skeptic, and did tests to find out that it wasn't what he expected. I will explain why you Atheists are bad skeptics (or not even skeptics at all) shortly...

Anyway, do you think that Charles Darwin went into making his theory saying "I don't know what happened earlier so I will find out."? No! He said "Christianity has insufficient evidence, I will figure out what happened". This is a predetermination. You cannot create a proper theory through predetermination. By doing this you base your theory on biases. To create a proper theory you need to let in all possibilities (being open-minded), and study them, which many Atheists have failed to do. I don't think that Charles Darwin tried to figure out how Christianity could/is true. I will explain why you Atheists are bad skeptics (or not even skeptics at all) shortly...

 

 

So now you know the mind of a man who has been dead for more than 100 years? Scientists of his day were indeed trying to show the bible was true, the established thought at the time that was that the bible was literally true so there must be evidence of what happened everywhere but it proved to be a fools errand, nothing that science examined then (or now) showed anything but that bible was lies because there is no evidence of God christian or other wise....

 

If you have some please feel free to show it but of course you do not, all you have is a desperate desire to confirm your own fantasy of god, it's sad njaohnt, sad that you don't have enough confidence to believe with out proof, sad that you consistently do your best to tear down reality in favor of a book of myths and fairy tales...

 

I pity you, you are wasting the one life you have promoting a lie and trying to get others to believe the lie by making claims that are basically lies, misrepresentations, and fabrications. I hope you genuinely don't realize you are promoting a lie but even if you are delusional that makes it doubly sad...

 

The fact that you think an eternity in hell is deserved by anyone who doesn't believe is pathological...

[njaohnt]

njaohnt.... How insulting, the program actually admits they cannot prove anything at around 07:00, if you seriously cannot do any better than that then I don't see any reason to continue to even discuss this. i will point out that the bible is demonstrably wrong about so much it calls into question everything else to anyone who has any flicker of rational thought. just because some of the people and places in the bible can be verified does not prove anything. I could write a story about alien invasion of New York City and use the names of real people, real places and even real events but it wouldn't the make the alien invasion real. I mean seriously.... I want my 10 minutes back on that one...

(con't)

... Before you say this, maybe you should go to Israel and actually give evidence! You have know evidence that it is false, and the video is evidence of itself! What are going believe? Go out and show Science Forums what you find in Israel, but don't do this! This is an example of a bad skeptic. Before examining evidence of this, Moontanman has said that this is a spinel, not a not a ruby. He says that this is spinel because of a predetermination that the Bible is false. Remember, a predetermination leads to a false theory.

 

 

[Moontanman]

(con't)

... Before you say this, maybe you should go to Israel and actually give evidence! You have know evidence that it is false, and the video is evidence of itself! What are going believe? Go out and show Science Forums what you find in Israel, but don't do this! This is an example of a bad skeptic. Before examining evidence of this, Moontanman has said that this is a spinel, not a not a ruby. He says that this is spinel because of a predetermination that the Bible is false. Remember, a predetermination leads to a false theory.

 

 

No njaohnt, you are lying right now, you insinuate that the Bible and what is in it has never been put to the test when in fact is has and the bible failed and I mean failed completely. If you have any evidence i suggest you show it instead of using falsehoods to undermine things there is evidence for.

 

Seriously njaohnt, 295 posts in this thread and you have failed utterly to support your premise, time to admit you only have faith and from what I've seen out of you there is precious little of that in your arguments...

Edited June 27, 2012 by Moontanman

[njaohnt]

So now you know the mind of a man who has been dead for more than 100 years? Scientists of his day were indeed trying to show the bible was true, the established thought at the time that was that the bible was literally true so there must be evidence of what happened everywhere but it proved to be a fools errand, nothing that science examined then (or now) showed anything but that bible was lies because there is no evidence of God christian or other wise....

Why do you keep on saying this, you say miracles aren't evidence? Why?

 

If you have some please feel free to show it but of course you do not,

Countless miracles.

all you have is a desperate desire to confirm your own fantasy of god, it's sad njaohnt, sad that you don't have enough confidence to believe with out proof, sad that you consistently do your best to tear down reality in favor of a book of myths and fairy tales...

What makes you so sure that the Bible is not true? There is no evidence suggesting it is false(except predeterminations) the only reason is that it lacks evidence, and when something lacks evidence, you go out and get evidence, to become a good skeptic. Sitting around not looking for evidence is what a bad skeptic does, become a good skeptic!

I pity you, you are wasting the one life you have promoting a lie and trying to get others to believe the lie by making claims that are basically lies, misrepresentations, and fabrications. I hope you genuinely don't realize you are promoting a lie but even if you are delusional that makes it doubly sad...

A lie? That's a predetermination! Predeterminations lead to false theories!

The fact that you think an eternity in hell is deserved by anyone who doesn't believe is pathological...

You don't get it, do you. After you read the Bible, you don't understand. It's not the fact that you don't believe. It is because you have sinned. The only way for a sinner to get to heaven is to have God forgive your sins. How can He forgive you if you don't think He exists?

 

No njaohnt, you are lying right now, you insinuate that the Bible and what is in it has never been put to the test when in fact is has and the bible failed and I mean failed completely. If you have any evidence i suggest you show it instead of using falsehoods to undermine things there is evidence for.

I have showed that video. Watch more if you have to, but don't call them falsehoods, unless you actually go to Israel and show us!

How did the Bible fail? Predeterminations?

Seriously njaohnt, 295 posts in this thread and you have failed utterly to support your premise, time to admit you only have faith and from what I've seen out of you there is precious little of that in your arguments...

How? I believe the videos. I would go to Israel, but you wouldn't believe me, would you?

 

 

 

[doG]

What makes you so sure that the Bible is not true? There is no evidence suggesting it is false(except predeterminations) the only reason is that it lacks evidence, and when something lacks evidence, you go out and get evidence, to become a good skeptic.

What reason is there to think it is true? It is a collection of books written by storytellers through the ages. All of the books are of the form, he said he said, i.e. hearsay. There is zero supporting evidence in favor of the bible's accuracy as any kind of historical record of events. No good skeptic would ever accept it as true without supporting evidence from those that assert it is true. It is not up to skeptics to disprove those that assert its truth, it is up to those that assert its truth to support their claim of truth. Until then their claims are just a bunch of hot air.

[Robert Oppenheimer]

Why do people keep screaming "EVIDENCE", when no logical Christian ever claims there is in fact evidence to support Christianity other than some historical accuracies. Any logical Christian will tell you that they aren't Christians based on evidence but faith. The only evidence anyone is likely to stumble upon are some accuracies dealing with people, places, and events of the times. These are mixed in with the stories of the bible with other things that can never be proven. It is peoples faith that lead their religion, not any based evidence found through scrutiny of that faith. So I agree with the confusion of the rest of this thread. What is the point in asking for evidence?

 

There are no logical Christians, as the most logical stance would be no stance at all. There is no logic in choosing to believe in a view of the universe that isn't based on any kind of evidence at all.

 

Furthermore, while there aren't any evidence supporting Christianity, there sure are evidence against it.

[Moontanman]

Why do you keep on saying this, you say miracles aren't evidence? Why?

 

If you had evidence of a miracle I'd consider it evidence but so far you do not.

 

Countless miracles.

 

Name a few, so far all you have are coincidences and horse feathers

 

 

What makes you so sure that the Bible is not true? There is no evidence suggesting it is false(except predeterminations) the only reason is that it lacks evidence, and when something lacks evidence, you go out and get evidence, to become a good skeptic. Sitting around not looking for evidence is what a bad skeptic does, become a good skeptic!

 

Let's see, just to name two Noah's Ark and the description of the earth and the sky?

 

A lie? That's a predetermination! Predeterminations lead to false theories!

 

No a lie is asserting something that is not true.

 

You don't get it, do you. After you read the Bible, you don't understand. It's not the fact that you don't believe. It is because you have sinned. The only way for a sinner to get to heaven is to have God forgive your sins. How can He forgive you if you don't think He exists?

 

No sin deserves eternal torture...

 

I have showed that video. Watch more if you have to, but don't call them falsehoods, unless you actually go to Israel and show us!

How did the Bible fail? Predeterminations?How? I believe the videos. I would go to Israel, but you wouldn't believe me, would you?

 

 

I watched your video, it is not... how do i say this with out being personally insulting... evidence of anything and why would going to Israel prove anything?

 

njaohnt almost 300 posts in the thread and so far no evidence what so ever, really and truly if you have evidence that is more than just empty claims from rabid believers please post it or admit you have faith and nothing else...

[iNow]