Christian Evidence

[Phi for All]

God does have to keep the miracles going, or no one would believe that He is real.

 

I like this part a lot. Can I put it in my signature?

[Arete]

Why do you keep on saying this, you say miracles aren't evidence? Why?

 

Can you point me to the one that's repeatable and not attributable to a natural phenomenon?

 

For example, I've got a laminar flow hood here. I can switch it off and the air inside will be perfectly still. The ground is level, there's no risk of an earthquake.

Say I put a beaker in the hood, and pray to God to tip it over, and it does. I upright it, and try again, it falls over again. Repeat 20 times. Only once the beaker fails to tip over. I now have p 0.05 that praying will make a beaker tip over [i.e. evidence of God]. I can take my laminar flow hood out in front of a lecture theater seated full of 500 students and repeat my experiment, demonstrating the power of prayer and providing evidence of God.

 

Is there anything like that?

 

What makes you so sure that the Bible is not true?

 

All the bits which deviate from observations of reality, including but not restricted to:

- Plants existed before the Sun and Moon (Genesis 1:11-16)

- The Moon is a/produces light (Genesis 1:16, Isaiah 13:10)

- The Hebrew population in Egypt somehow goes from dozens to millions in a few hundred years. (Exodus)

- Hares and coneys are ruminants (Leviticus 11:5-6)

- Dragons (Deuteronomy 32:33, Psalms 148:7)

- Pi = 3(1 Kings 7:23, 2 Chronicles 4:2)

- The Earth doesn't move.(1 Chronicles 16:30, Job 38:4-6, Psalms 93:1, 96:10..)

- The Earth has four corners (Isaiah 11:12, Ezekial 7:2)

etc.

http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread689074/pg1

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[njaohnt]

Can you point me to the one that's repeatable and not attributable to a natural phenomenon?

 

For example, I've got a laminar flow hood here. I can switch it off and the air inside will be perfectly still. The ground is level, there's no risk of an earthquake.

Say I put a beaker in the hood, and pray to God to tip it over, and it does. I upright it, and try again, it falls over again. Repeat 20 times. Only once the beaker fails to tip over. I now have p 0.05 that praying will make a beaker tip over [i.e. evidence of God]. I can take my laminar flow hood out in front of a lecture theater seated full of 500 students and repeat my experiment, demonstrating the power of prayer and providing evidence of God.

 

Is there anything like that?

Countless Miracles! I referred to this guy as "the dude in South America who heals people" I found a webpage about him. http://www.beliefnet.com/News/Science-Religion/2002/11/John-Of-God-Investigating-A-Brazilian-Faith-Healer.aspx?p=1

Yes, he has lots of religions, but God works in mysterious ways, doesn't he?

There's also someone like that in my church. There are countless miracles!

All the bits which deviate from observations of reality, including but not restricted to:

- Plants existed before the Sun and Moon (Genesis 1:11-16)

Is that impossible?

- The Moon is a/produces light (Genesis 1:16, Isaiah 13:10)

Where does it say that? Just because the moon is a light doesn't mean it produces its own light!

- The Hebrew population in Egypt somehow goes from dozens to millions in a few hundred years. (Exodus)

No! It went from hundreds to hundreds of thousand in a few hundred years, so God's people were prosperous!

- Hares and coneys are ruminants (Leviticus 11:5-6)

Evolution?

- Dragons (Deuteronomy 32:33, Psalms 148:7)

What? I have feeling that you just got this from a website without looking at it.

- Pi = 3(1 Kings 7:23, 2 Chronicles 4:2)

Pi is pretty close to three. Of course they're not going to have it exact.

- The Earth doesn't move.(1 Chronicles 16:30, Job 38:4-6, Psalms 93:1, 96:10..)

That's not really what it is saying. It says we can't move it. It's kind of different from what you're saying.

- The Earth has four corners (Isaiah 11:12, Ezekial 7:2)

Didn't I already explain this?

 

 

 

I think Krishna healed him... show how I am wrong...

He doesn't believe that Krishna can heal him. He does believe that God can heal him. Which is more probable?

 

Wow. You're really having a hard time grasping what the term atheist means huh? Atheism IS NOT about evidence, it's about the lack of evidence to support any conclusion that one or more deities exist. Theists conclude that there is in fact one or more deities based on faith alone. Atheists refuse to do the same because they are holding out for evidence, real verifiable, testable evidence.

An atheist not following evidence is like a Christian not believing in Jesus.

 

This is very relevant, and very much worth the careful inspection, especially in light of the latest few posts:

 

 

Yes, but Christianity follow the Bible the best (I find). As long as you follow the Bible, you're following the "One true way"

 

 

 

What reason is there to think it is true? It is a collection of books written by storytellers through the ages. All of the books are of the form, he said he said, i.e. hearsay. There is zero supporting evidence in favor of the bible's accuracy as any kind of historical record of events. No good skeptic would ever accept it as true without supporting evidence from those that assert it is true. It is not up to skeptics to disprove those that assert its truth, it is up to those that assert its truth to support their claim of truth. Until then their claims are just a bunch of hot air.

How they were written. The only way that the Bible could be false(and God) is if those books were written by greedy people wanting money. I doubt that because of how they were written, their length, etc.

[Greg H.]

- Hares and coneys are ruminants (Leviticus 11:5-6)

 

Evolution?

 

 

Evidence of speciation from the bible? I'll have to remember this one.

[njaohnt]

No sin deserves eternal torture...

I watched your video, it is not... how do i say this with out being personally insulting... evidence of anything and why would going to Israel prove anything?

 

The Devil created Hell, and God doesn't allow impurities. Where else are to go?

Maybe you should watch another one to get more evidence?

[Arete]

Countless Miracles!

 

I asked for the ones which are repeatable for statistical validation and demonstration - if there are countless examples it should be pretty straightforward to provide us an example.

[mooeypoo]

Yes, but Christianity follow the Bible the best (I find). As long as you follow the Bible, you're following the "One true way"

I just laughed out loud ...

 

So, which version of "the bible" are you following, exactly? The one that says whoever works in the sabbath (SATURDAY) should die? The one that prohibits you from wearing woven clothing? The one that tells you not to have ANY engraven images, or any symbols of anything, including a man's body on a crucible?

 

Yep. Follows quite directly, I'd say. Pick and choose, eh?

 

How they were written. The only way that the Bible could be false(and God) is if those books were written by greedy people wanting money. I doubt that because of how they were written, their length, etc.

 

Wow. How in-depth did you REALLY read the bible, friend? Any real close inspection of the actual text shows VERY clearly that it was written by various different people. The fact you have the same story told mutiple times with *different* details that are contrary to one another, should point that out immediately.

 

Then, the writing styles change dramatically. Then again, you wouldn't notice that one if you don't read the ORIGINAL language, which you do not.

 

Don't make claims you have no clue about. You don't know what the original biblical language says because you can't read hebrew/aramaic of the OT and you can't read Greek for some of the NT. Unless you can, you are reading a pre-interpreted TRANSLATION, which means you cannot possibly make any claims about the way the text is written originally.

 

If you want, I can show you examples of how the english translation is COMPLETELY different than the original text. I can show you quite a lot of examples on that, actually. And we can talk about the oh-so-holy 10 commandments, 70% of which Christianity doesn't follow at all.

Interested?

 

~mooey

 

 

 

(con't)

... Before you say this, maybe you should go to Israel and actually give evidence! You have know evidence that it is false, and the video is evidence of itself! What are going believe? Go out and show Science Forums what you find in Israel, but don't do this! This is an example of a bad skeptic. Before examining evidence of this, Moontanman has said that this is a spinel, not a not a ruby. He says that this is spinel because of a predetermination that the Bible is false. Remember, a predetermination leads to a false theory.

 

 

If going to Israel is evidence, then I should be a devout christian, seeing as how I grew up there, speak the language, studied the original bible for 12 years, and visited most of the religious notable sites.

 

... yet, I am not. And neither are the majority of the people who LIVE in Israel... so what exactly am I supposed to get from being in Israel?

 

Have *YOU* ever been there?

 

 

 

((EDIT: Sorry, I quoted the wrong post. changed))

[mississippichem]

The Devil created Hell, and God doesn't allow impurities. Where else are to go?

Maybe you should watch another one to get more evidence?

 

Who created the devil? How did God not see this one [hell] coming?

 

Your argument doesn't even stand up to trivial scrunity.

[doG]

How they were written. The only way that the Bible could be false(and God) is if those books were written by greedy people wanting money. I doubt that because of how they were written, their length, etc.

So books written by selfless people are true by default? Can you support that assertion?

[njaohnt]

I just laughed out loud ...

 

So, which version of "the bible" are you following, exactly? The one that says whoever works in the sabbath (SATURDAY) should die? The one that prohibits you from wearing woven clothing? The one that tells you not to have ANY engraven images, or any symbols of anything, including a man's body on a crucible?

So? Those don't deny each other, and I really don't think that you understand them. Perhaps you should see http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%205-6&version=NIV

Wow. How in-depth did you REALLY read the bible, friend? Any real close inspection of the actual text shows VERY clearly that it was written by various different people. The fact you have the same story told mutiple times with *different* details that are contrary to one another, should point that out immediately.

How are they contrary to each other? I have not found that at all.

Then, the writing styles change dramatically. Then again, you wouldn't notice that one if you don't read the ORIGINAL language, which you do not.

Don't make claims you have no clue about. You don't know what the original biblical language says because you can't read hebrew/aramaic of the OT and you can't read Greek for some of the NT. Unless you can, you are reading a pre-interpreted TRANSLATION, which means you cannot possibly make any claims about the way the text is written originally.

If you want, I can show you examples of how the english translation is COMPLETELY different than the original text. I can show you quite a lot of examples on that, actually. And we can talk about the oh-so-holy 10 commandments, 70% of which Christianity doesn't follow at all.

Interested?

Yes

If going to Israel is evidence, then I should be a devout christian, seeing as how I grew up there, speak the language, studied the original bible for 12 years, and visited most of the religious notable sites.

... yet, I am not. And neither are the majority of the people who LIVE in Israel... so what exactly am I supposed to get from being in Israel?

What religious sites have you seen? Certainly not the ones that the people in the video were at.

 

And you're saying I look like that? Ha. Yeah right. Give me an example of where I said "I can't hear you!"(or I refused to hear you).

 

Who created the devil? How did God not see this one [hell] coming?

Your argument doesn't even stand up to trivial scrunity.

The angels have their decisions to make, too. People have not done evil?

[Moontanman]

And you're saying I look like that? Ha. Yeah right. Give me an example of where I said "I can't hear you!"(or I refused to hear you).

 

So far pretty much every post you make, so far you have refused to address the arguments of nearly everyone who has has shown evidence that disagreed with your version of what you believe your religion says. Right now, as you stare cluelessly into your computer you are committing an abomination. Can you take along hard look at your self and guess what it is?

[njaohnt]

So books written by selfless people are true by default? Can you support that assertion?

Yes. https://www.google.ca/search?rlz=1C1GPEA_enCA328CA328&aq=0&oq=does+a+sponge+soak+&sugexp=chrome,mod=4&ix=h9&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8&q=why+does+a+sponge+soak+up+water#hl=en&rlz=1C1GPEA_enCA328CA328&sclient=psy-ab&q=does+a+sponge+soak+up+water&oq=does+a+sponge+soak+up+water&gs_l=serp.3..0i5.4051.6775.1.7044.4.3.0.0.0.1.191.509.0j3.3.0...0.0.-UpCQtm-Op8&psj=1&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_qf.,cf.osb&fp=c0a71f853a7e4a00&biw=1280&bih=668

 

None of the web pages say "Does a sponge soak up water", because it is obvious that it does.

Thus

same evidence = same conclusions

Thus

same conclusions = same evidence

Obviously

same evidence = same probably reality

And

same probable reality = best thing to believe

Unless

same evidence = same none probable reality

And

same none probable reality = risky to not believe

However

Atheism = not risky to not believe

So

same probable reality = best thing to believe = Christianity = best thing to believe

Unless

same evidence = same none probable reality

And

same none probable reality = risky to not believe

However

Atheism = not risky to not believe

So

same probable reality = best thing to believe = Christianity = best thing to believe

 

Any disagreement?

 

 

 

So far pretty much every post you make, so far you have refused to address the arguments of nearly everyone who has has shown evidence that disagreed with your version of what you believe your religion says. Right now, as you stare cluelessly into your computer you are committing an abomination. Can you take along hard look at your self and guess what it is?

No sorry, I don't see it. Please be more specific.

[Moontanman]

Yes. https://www.google.ca/search?rlz=1C1GPEA_enCA328CA328&aq=0&oq=does+a+sponge+soak+&sugexp=chrome,mod=4&ix=h9&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8&q=why+does+a+sponge+soak+up+water#hl=en&rlz=1C1GPEA_enCA328CA328&sclient=psy-ab&q=does+a+sponge+soak+up+water&oq=does+a+sponge+soak+up+water&gs_l=serp.3..0i5.4051.6775.1.7044.4.3.0.0.0.1.191.509.0j3.3.0...0.0.-UpCQtm-Op8&psj=1&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_qf.,cf.osb&fp=c0a71f853a7e4a00&biw=1280&bih=668

 

None of the web pages say "Does a sponge soak up water", because it is obvious that it does.

Thus

same evidence = same conclusions

Thus

same conclusions = same evidence

Obviously

same evidence = same probably reality

And

same probable reality = best thing to believe

Unless

same evidence = same none probable reality

And

same none probable reality = risky to not believe

However

Atheism = not risky to not believe

So

same probable reality = best thing to believe = Christianity = best thing to believe

Unless

same evidence = same none probable reality

And

same none probable reality = risky to not believe

However

Atheism = not risky to not believe

So

same probable reality = best thing to believe = Christianity = best thing to believe

 

Any disagreement?

 

Yes, total disagreement, how is Christianity any more likely to be true than Islam or the Greek gods or Egyptian gods or Krishna or Adriana? You simply don't have a leg to stand on.

 

 

 

No sorry, I don't see it. Please be more specific.

 

 

Any chance you are not wearing any apparel made of two different kinds of threads? Cotton polyester blend? or any other blend?

 

Edit for grammer

Edited July 6, 2012 by Moontanman

[ydoaPs]

If going to Israel is evidence, then I should be a devout christian, seeing as how I grew up there, speak the language, studied the original bible for 12 years, and visited most of the religious notable sites.

 

... yet, I am not. And neither are the majority of the people who LIVE in Israel... so what exactly am I supposed to get from being in Israel?

 

Have *YOU* ever been there?

 

 

 

((EDIT: Sorry, I quoted the wrong post. changed))

 

There's also the bit where the actual scholars in Israel (say the former director of Archaeology at Tel Aviv University who has written several books on the subject) say that the OT is pure fantasy up until David and it's incredibly wrong about history from David on to the time it was written.

 

(con't)

... Before you say this, maybe you should go to Israel and actually give evidence! You have know evidence that it is false, and the video is evidence of itself! What are going believe? Go out and show Science Forums what you find in Israel, but don't do this! This is an example of a bad skeptic. Before examining evidence of this, Moontanman has said that this is a spinel, not a not a ruby. He says that this is spinel because of a predetermination that the Bible is false. Remember, a predetermination leads to a false theory.

 

If you want evidence of the accuracy of the Bible, you should go to Tyre.

[Moontanman]

The Devil created Hell, and God doesn't allow impurities. Where else are to go?

Maybe you should watch another one to get more evidence?

 

 

Where does it say the Devil created hell?

[ydoaPs]

Yes. https://www.google.ca/search?rlz=1C1GPEA_enCA328CA328&aq=0&oq=does+a+sponge+soak+&sugexp=chrome,mod=4&ix=h9&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8&q=why+does+a+sponge+soak+up+water#hl=en&rlz=1C1GPEA_enCA328CA328&sclient=psy-ab&q=does+a+sponge+soak+up+water&oq=does+a+sponge+soak+up+water&gs_l=serp.3..0i5.4051.6775.1.7044.4.3.0.0.0.1.191.509.0j3.3.0...0.0.-UpCQtm-Op8&psj=1&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_qf.,cf.osb&fp=c0a71f853a7e4a00&biw=1280&bih=668

 

None of the web pages say "Does a sponge soak up water", because it is obvious that it does.

Thus

same evidence = same conclusions

Thus

same conclusions = same evidence

Obviously

same evidence = same probably reality

And

same probable reality = best thing to believe

Unless

same evidence = same none probable reality

And

same none probable reality = risky to not believe

However

Atheism = not risky to not believe

So

same probable reality = best thing to believe = Christianity = best thing to believe

Unless

same evidence = same none probable reality

And

same none probable reality = risky to not believe

However

Atheism = not risky to not believe

So

same probable reality = best thing to believe = Christianity = best thing to believe

 

Any disagreement?

 

 

The prior probability of a resurrection after 3 days is incredibly low, so for us to have a decent chance of it being true, we must have unbelievably good evidence for it (via Bayes's Theorem). Now, for the sake of argument, let's even say the accounts of the resurrection are eyewitness accounts (despite that not being the case at all). This should be really good evidence, right? Wrong. Take a look at each account and write down all of the details. It's almost as though they're not even talking about the same events! Furthermore, some things mentioned in the accounts would have been written down by EVERYONE (such as supernatural darkness, earthquakes, and zombies rising from their graves), yet not a single contemporary historian mentions any of it.

 

Christianity is NOT the best thing to believe.

[Moontanman]

njaohnt, you do realize that the devil or Satan is a concept completely made up by Christians around 3 to 4 hundred CE don't you?

 

[Jaden]

njaohnt, you do realize that the devil or Satan is a concept completely made up by Christians around 3 to 4 hundred CE don't you?

There are numerous references to and descriptions of Satan in the new testament, which was written in the first century AD.

For example:

 

1 John 3: 8

Ephesians 2: 1-2

Revelation 3: 9

John 8: 44

Acts 5: 3

2 Corinthians 2: 10-11

2 Corinthians 11: 14

James 3: 14-15

2 Thessalonians 2: 9-10

1 John 3: 10

Acts 13:10

2 Timothy 2: 25-26

 

I asked for the ones which are repeatable for statistical validation and demonstration - if there are countless examples it should be pretty straightforward to provide us an example.

Miracles are, almost by definition, not repeatable. I would be very surprised to find a miracle that can be repeated.

 

If you are looking for an example of any miracle though, I have given one in post 531 of this thread (and further explained in post 542):

http://www.sciencefo...d/page__st__520

 

This type of miracle is obviously not able to be repeated for scientific analysis - you either beleive the people who tell you about it, or you don't.

 

The prior probability of a resurrection after 3 days is incredibly low, so for us to have a decent chance of it being true, we must have unbelievably good evidence for it (via Bayes's Theorem).

This page argues against the need for extraordinary evidence:

http://carm.org/extr...dinary-evidence

And these pages give evidence for the resurrection.

http://carm.org/does...us-resurrection

http://toptenproofs....esurrection.php

[iNow]

Oh yes, of course. Instead of presenting any extraordinary evidence in support of your beliefs, offer an argument against the need for extraordinary evidence. Brilliant! I'm now convinced of the veracity of your claims.

[njaohnt]

Yes, total disagreement, how is Christianity any more likely to be true than Islam or the Greek gods or Egyptian gods or Krishna or Adriana? You simply don't have a leg to stand on.

(sorry about putting none instead of non, they're all like that because I copied, and pasted)

Show me why those are just as good to believe in. The purpose of that post was not to show how all other religions are wrong, but just in specific, atheism.

Any chance you are not wearing any apparel made of two different kinds of threads? Cotton polyester blend? or any other blend?

After being a Christian for how many years you have failed to see the purpose in what it says. Look at where it says that. Notice anything abnormal compared to how the Bible puts out other laws(laws that are straight forward).

[Moontanman]

(sorry about putting none instead of non, they're all like that because I copied, and pasted)

Show me why those are just as good to believe in. The purpose of that post was not to show how all other religions are wrong, but just in specific, atheism.

 

All those "other" religions are just as good to believe in because they have precisely the same evidence yours does... Atheism is not a religion...

 

After being a Christian for how many years you have failed to see the purpose in what it says. Look at where it says that. Notice anything abnormal compared to how the Bible puts out other laws(laws that are straight forward).

 

Wearing cloth made of more than one type of thread is the same as being homosexual.... both are an abomination in the eyes of the Lord...

 

There are numerous references to and descriptions of Satan in the new testament, which was written in the first century AD.

For example:

 

1 John 3: 8

Ephesians 2: 1-2

Revelation 3: 9

John 8: 44

Acts 5: 3

2 Corinthians 2: 10-11

2 Corinthians 11: 14

James 3: 14-15

2 Thessalonians 2: 9-10

1 John 3: 10

Acts 13:10

2 Timothy 2: 25-26

 

 

Miracles are, almost by definition, not repeatable. I would be very surprised to find a miracle that can be repeated.

 

If you are looking for an example of any miracle though, I have given one in post 531 of this thread (and further explained in post 542):

http://www.sciencefo...d/page__st__520

 

This type of miracle is obviously not able to be repeated for scientific analysis - you either beleive the people who tell you about it, or you don't.

 

 

This page argues against the need for extraordinary evidence:

http://carm.org/extr...dinary-evidence

And these pages give evidence for the resurrection.

http://carm.org/does...us-resurrection

http://toptenproofs....esurrection.php

 

 

The new testament which is the Christian bible was put together around 3 to 4 hundred CE, it was heavily edited and is a compromise of several different concepts of Jesus and God all of which were written well after the life of Jesus.

 

The old testament does not include the concept of the devil. it was made up by Christians to enforce their version of god by threats of punishment. The video i posted shows this to be true and shows that the old testament was edited by Christians around 3 to 4 hundred CE to support the idea of heaven and hell...

Edited July 7, 2012 by Moontanman

[njaohnt]

Christianity is NOT the best thing to believe.

That's only true if the people who wrote the Bible were lying.

 

All those "other" religions are just as good to believe in because they have precisely the same evidence yours does... Atheism is not a religion...

Show me evidence of them, and once again, that was not the purpose of that post! If you think they have good evidence, maybe you should believe in them!

Wearing cloth made of more than one type of thread is the same as being homosexual.... both are an abomination in the eyes of the Lord...

Read the NIV translation. Notice anything?

[Moontanman]

That's only true if the people who wrote the Bible were lying.

 

What if they were simply relating myths they had been told?

 

Show me evidence of them, and once again, that was not the purpose of that post! If you think they have good evidence, maybe you should believe in them!

 

They have no evidence... just like yours... why would I want to believe in anything that has no evidence?

 

Read the NIV translation. Notice anything?

 

Yeah, it doesn't say the same thing the original does... homosexuality seems to be special for some reason, they always seem to translate that one correctly...

[ydoaPs]

That's only true if the people who wrote the Bible were lying.

 

Does not follow.

[njaohnt]

Does not follow.

What doesn't follow?

Edited July 8, 2012 by njaohnt