God, energy, or bodily phenomena?

[Logical]

I am a believer in god. And a believer in science. I have found that i can (to a certain degree) manipulate bodily heat throughout my body. I have measured and have been able to increase the temperature of my hands by 6 degrees, according to my thermometer. However during my last several trips to a new church i have found that every time i get a feeling on my right shoulder. I would describe it as if someone smeared icy hot onto my skin. Strangely enough i am able to move the tingle throughout many of the parts of my body. Any comments on energy manipulation and your opinions on my dilemma would be greatly appreciated.

[immortal]

It is normally believed that angels enter human bodies from the right shoulder, I don't know how much this is true, may be your body is aware of those things while many others aren't aware of that but there can be other explanations for your bodily changes.

[John Cuthber]

"It is normally believed that angels enter human bodies from the right shoulder"

No.

It is normally believed that angels don't exist.

 

There are any number of possible explanations of Logical's experience that don't involve fairy tales.

The most obvious being that the effect is psychosomatic, however since one other possibility is that the symptom is caused by some sort of health problem it's probably a good idea to see a doctor.

[ajb]

The most obvious being that the effect is psychosomatic, however since one other possibility is that the symptom is caused by some sort of health problem it's probably a good idea to see a doctor.

 

I support the position that this is psychosomatic. The human mind is a very complex organ that can effect the whole body in unusual ways.

 

That said, John offers some very clear and good advice.

[JustinW]

That said, John offers some very clear and good advice

Good advise except for this maybe.

No.

It is normally believed that angels don't exist.

Normally by who, John? You and those who think like you? Since you and those who think like you don't make up a majority of the worlds population I think such an assertion is facetious at best, if not a little arrogant.

Edited February 28, 2012 by JustinW

[Phi for All]

I have measured and have been able to increase the temperature of my hands by 6 degrees, according to my thermometer.

Please describe how you performed this experiment.

 

How did you measure the temperature of your hands at the beginning of the experiment, and how did you measure the temperature at the end? How long did it take to increase by 6 degrees? Did you lay the thermometer on the palm of your hand or did you grip it in your fist?

[John Cuthber]

Good advise except for this maybe.

 

Normally by who, John? You and those who think like you? Since you and those who think like you don't make up a majority of the worlds population I think such an assertion is facetious at best, if not a little arrogant.

OK, so I failed to add " hereabouts" or "on this site" or whatever because I thought it was implicit.

You extrapolated that to the population of the world and so I'm arrogant.

Well, I guess it's one point of view.

 

BTW, advice not advise: whom not who and world's not worlds.

[zapatos]

OK, so I failed to add " hereabouts" or "on this site" or whatever because I thought it was implicit.

You extrapolated that to the population of the world and so I'm arrogant.

Well, I guess it's one point of view.

 

BTW, advice not advise: whom not who and world's not worlds.

Um, I think you misused the colon.

[JustinW]

OK, so I failed to add " hereabouts" or "on this site" or whatever because I thought it was implicit.

You extrapolated that to the population of the world and so I'm arrogant.

Only a little. Being such a broad generality leaves the sentence open to include the world's population. Also since the OP included the possibility of religious experience the generality should have already been accepted to include the worlds population that are majorily religious. Therefore location is not implicit. The arrogance was in the direct NO that started your statement, while the facetiousness was in the fallible generality.(even if unintended) I always have a problem with the object cynicism and contempt that some of the members show towards those who believe in religion on this forum. Those who don't believe in deities can't prove deities don't exist just as much as those who do believe in deities can't prove that they do. My appologies John, if you weren't intending to sound like this. I guess the post just struck a chord.

[iNow]

It strikes me as a very fair and reasonable position to begin with the assumption that angels don't exist instead of the assumption they do (unless you're talking about a baseball team in Los Angeles or some other alternative meaning/application of the term).

[JustinW]

iNow,

It strikes me as a very fair and reasonable position to begin with the assumption that angels don't exist instead of the assumption they do

I knew it would. What is it they say about assuming... I know I do it all the time. Why is it more fair to assume they don't rather than they do? Especially when the opening line of the OP was, "I'm a believer in God", and then makes a connection to God and bodily phenomena. I think it's more fair to assume that Angels do exist when under the context of the OP since no one can prove that they do not.

[Phi for All]

Let's not go there, guys. We have plenty of threads arguing existence. This is a chance to use science to address the issues raised.

 

I remember doing exercises where we were asked to envision a ball of warm white light moving around our bodies and affecting the different parts in various ways. It was amazing how you could actually feel it working. And of course it was psychosomatic, the mind convincing itself that what we were imagining was real. I think it's really no different than distracting yourself from the bitter cold by imagining you're laying on a beach being baked by the hot sun.

 

But hey, it's been four days now, Logical, how about some answers to the questions that have been asked?

[iNow]

Why is it more fair to assume they don't rather than they do? Especially when the opening line of the OP was, "I'm a believer in God", and then makes a connection to God and bodily phenomena. I think it's more fair to assume that Angels do exist when under the context of the OP since no one can prove that they do not.

Sure, that's fair. Can we please start by agreeing upon the defining characteristics of an "angel" and how we might hope to measure those beyond mere rhetoric and whimsy?

[John Cuthber]

Um, I think you misused the colon.

Only half of it. The other half was legitimate (and ironic).

Anyway, as far as I can see the OP was nearly science-free.

No experimental details and no prospect of repeating the experiment.

[Phi for All]

Anyway, as far as I can see the OP was nearly science-free.

No experimental details and no prospect of repeating the experiment.

Exactly. I can make my thermometer read 1 degree higher just by gripping it more tightly (probably more skin surface area against the glass). I'm sure there are other things I could do to increase it more, like spending some time outdoors in the cold to draw blood away from my extremities before measuring hand temp, then measuring it again in 10 minutes.

 

Without knowing the details of the experiment, we can't review anything meaningful.

[John Cuthber]

So, on the basis of a one-off flawed measurement and some odd phenomena for which there are perfectly rational explanations, someone is suggesting the existence of angels.

Which makes this statement about me all the more worrying

" you, and those who think like you, don't make up a majority of the world's population".

Incidentally, on a Friday evening it is quite common for my left hand to be a good few degrees warmer than my right.

Some people may ascribe this to supernatural phenomena.

I think it's because I hold my drink in my right hand and, if I'm talking to my tobacco smoking friends outside the pub, only my left hand is in my pocket.

[Phi for All]

I think it's because I hold my drink in my right hand and, if I'm talking to my tobacco smoking friends outside the pub, only my left hand is in my pocket.

Clearly your friends are angels. A word of advice: start holding your drink in your left hand so it doesn't slosh when they enter your body from your right shoulder.

[JustinW]

I remember doing exercises where we were asked to envision a ball of warm white light moving around our bodies and affecting the different parts in various ways. It was amazing how you could actually feel it working. And of course it was psychosomatic, the mind convincing itself that what we were imagining was real. I think it's really no different than distracting yourself from the bitter cold by imagining you're laying on a beach being baked by the hot sun.

Alright I'll quit nitpickin'. So, is it possible that psychosomatic excersizes can have physical effects on the body? Let's say for instance, we know that it probably wasn't psychosomatic excersize rather than some physical change that acted on the thermometer. But I have heard about things like mind over matter and the like. Do y'all think Psychosomatic excersize has any bearing on physical reality? Also this reminds me of several other things. Like when they say people die of a broken heart or that mice have a certain reaction of getting scared to death when they're too young to run from a predator. Could these last two examples possibly be psychosomatic behavior having a physical effect on the body?

[imatfaal]

Clearly your friends are angels. A word of advice: start holding your drink in your left hand so it doesn't slosh when they enter your body from your right shoulder.

 

If things are gonna start entering John Cuthber whilst drinking outside a pub on a friday night I might just have to jump on a train with my camera for the photo-opportunity of a lifetime

 

Respected Chemist assaulted outside the local hostelry : "An invasive presence entered through my right shoulder..." read more on pages 2,3,4... Exclusive photos.

[Phi for All]

If things are gonna start entering John Cuthber whilst drinking outside a pub on a friday night I might just have to jump on a train with my camera for the photo-opportunity of a lifetime

Take some video as well. I want to see the reaction when John tells his friends they're angels.

[John Cuthber]

Late on a Friday night anything's possible.

Having said that, I rather like absinthe, and that's meant to make you see fairies rather than angels.

[Villain]

BTW, advice not advise

Perhaps he was referring to your action of advising.

[imatfaal]

Late on a Friday night anything's possible.

Having said that, I rather like absinthe, and that's meant to make you see fairies rather than angels.

 

I have heard terrible stories about absinthe - even the stuff you can buy over the counter today; but it has only ever managed to get me very drunk, not so much as la plus petite fee verte

[John Cuthber]

Perhaps he was referring to your action of advising.

 

Then he should have done it correctly.

[rajakrsna]

I am a believer in god. And a believer in science. I have found that i can (to a certain degree) manipulate bodily heat throughout my body. I have measured and have been able to increase the temperature of my hands by 6 degrees, according to my thermometer. However during my last several trips to a new church i have found that every time i get a feeling on my right shoulder. I would describe it as if someone smeared icy hot onto my skin. Strangely enough i am able to move the tingle throughout many of the parts of my body. Any comments on energy manipulation and your opinions on my dilemma would be greatly appreciated.

 

 

Well, I can`t tell if its an energy manipulation you experienced unless I get to examine you physically and have you worked up. An executive panel will do. Physically, I have to check if you are not hyper or hypotensive. I have to know if you are not a diabetic, if your serum lipids are abnormal including the cholesterol level in your blood. I have to check if your urine for has bacteria and pus cells, your stool whether you are infested with worms, your kidneys by checking for the level of your serum creatinine, liver function tests ( SGPT, SGOT), or perhaps a thyroid panel or chest x-ray pa view. If the results are normal I have to know your personal and family history ( cancer, mental illness, etc). Or whether you have a drug history ( pot, crack, ). Once I have gathered all the information then I will tell you if what you have experienced is what you say it is.

Edited March 9, 2012 by rajakrsna