Representation Causes Inflation

[Xittenn]

Are there formalized statements about the fact that representation inflates the amount of information present? I mean in electronics a binary decoder is an example of how representation causes inflation, but I'm looking for more general statements about this before I feel it is necessary to make my own; order of preference here.

[DrRocket]

Are there formalized statements about the fact that representation inflates the amount of information present? I mean in electronics a binary decoder is an example of how representation causes inflation, but I'm looking for more general statements about this before I feel it is necessary to make my own; order of preference here.

 

Define "representation".

 

Define "inflation".

 

While you are at if you need to also clearly define what you mean by "information" and "amount of information".

[Xittenn]

Well that is kind of the question which you obviously already know, and is why I'm asking because I don't have the formal language and am seeking it as such.

 

Representation:

 

Any systematic use of symbols to describe a property that can also be an exact copy of the property itself.

 

 

Inflation (in this situation):

 

The growth of a closed system of information where the system includes the information that makes up an observer, a property that consists of information, and no extra information that can be converted in form without affecting the information of the property or of the observer; where the system must grow to accommodate a representation.

 

 

Information:

 

In my world all is information--everything. If there is a need for a more concise definition we can start with binary, information is the defined two state 0 and 1.

 

 

Quantity Information:

 

Is how many 0's and 1's there are in a closed system--in our preliminary hypothetical.

Edited February 27, 2012 by Xittenn

[DrRocket]

Actually there are various uses of those terms, mostly rather loose uses. I though that perhaps you had some specific definitions in mind.

 

But at this stage I am lost.

[Xittenn]

Nope, I didn't have anything in specific in mind, and actually I'm looking for the purest of abstraction of the ideas. I've gone over some statements with regards to Thermal Dynamics in respect to Boltzmann's research and writing but I was hoping for something even less applicable. I thought maybe there was an abstraction of ideas laid out in one of the many branches of mathematics that I may have overlooked. Maybe I should just look deeper into Boltzmann's ideas and see where that goes.

 

Thanks!

[DrRocket]

Nope, I didn't have anything in specific in mind, and actually I'm looking for the purest of abstraction of the ideas. I've gone over some statements with regards to Thermal Dynamics in respect to Boltzmann's research and writing but I was hoping for something even less applicable. I thought maybe there was an abstraction of ideas laid out in one of the many branches of mathematics that I may have overlooked. Maybe I should just look deeper into Boltzmann's ideas and see where that goes.

 

Thanks!

 

In that case my best suggestion is to take a look information theory and the work of Claude Shannon.

 

http://cm.bell-labs.com/cm/ms/what/shannonday/paper.html

[uncool]

Information theory would be your best bet. So far I don't think you've specified closely enough to determine whether you want Shannon information or Kolmogorov information; both are related to what you've stated (and they are directly related to each other).

=Uncool-

[Xittenn]

Will do thanks guys!

[JohnStu]

I think the word exaggerate would fit better than inflate. As inflate usually means increase in density and the volumn where as exaggerate means increase in porportion (size, volumn), the density becomes thinner.

 

Yes representation does cause inflation I think and at sometimes cause deflation. How much the inflation and wheter inflation or deflation depends on what kind've representation is used. If it is an overfancy (in shape/pattern) symbol to represent something that is only yes or no (binary), then it does cause exaggeration of actual information they are representing. But then it also depends on the reader.

[Xittenn]

I don't agree that systems can deflate as a cause of representation, and this is taking it in the context from my previous definition. You can selectively represent properties and as a consequence there may be created links between a larger subsystem of observables and a reduced set of identifying properties. This identifying set of properties does not accurately represent the original subsystem and is therefore not a complete representation. Regardless the system in this sense continues to inflate as the representation of the property selected does not excuse the subsystem from existence, and to represent a single property of a subsystem requires that the total quantity of information contained in the system is to be increased.

 

This ambiguity in terminology is why I'm doing my research, so that if I found a future need to elucidate a point, I could do so in the confines of greater accuracy and precision, and without any confusion. Ultimately if there was a specific language set that was well defined and accepted I could communicate with little effort to a greater number of individuals. I am looking specifically at this moment at Kolmogorov but only because his works appear to be more closely aligned with my requirements. That said I would gladly accept any and all feedback from the community on this matter.

[JohnStu]

Systems can deflate due to missrepresentation (yes, Miss Representation) is what I meant. Misrepresentation can occur when one tries to represent.

 

Yes I understood what you meant.

 

Symbols, to me are to abbreviate what they represent, not to replace what they represent. For example, the famous Newton formula - force equals mass times acceleration of the same target object is abbreviated to f=m*a. The use of this symbol causes more work have to be done in the mind process, but less work to do on the writing part. I call it a convertion of effort. The Law of Universal Conservation Of Energy relates to this (law of ) convertion of effort I have. So, inflation and deflation can occur as correct and false statements can be written. Symbols can cause confusion is what I'd say in some cases, which creates more effort needed for those individuals, is that what you meant by inflation? Or were you talking about the actual increase in data or the desire to obtain more data?

[Xittenn]

Your observations are very interesting.

 

 

As for my own original meaning I'm not quite sure how you've misconstrued it to mean anything but what I had originally stated.

 

1 0 <=== closed system two entities

 

01 0 <==== one observes zero and stores a copy

 

or

 

101 0 <=== one observes zero and says there are two possibilities present 1 or 0 and represents this with a check mark; 10 == it was a 0; 01 == it was a 1

 

In both cases the size of the system had to increase to accommodate the observation. I guess this could be the equivalent of saying that there is a cost to increase the organization of a system, as observed in thermal dynamics, but I think this has a slightly different connotation.

[JohnStu]

Okay, if you were to talk about those cases specifically then I guess.

 

I thought you were talking about those cases and use of symbols in languages or statistic analysis.