Ancient Aliens, The Kali Yuga, Science in crisis

[articlevol]

Thats not the way things work, not on a quantum level. You displayed a newtonian world view, get with it...

 

I don't need to prove anything, I don't have that kind of worldview.

 

I tend to consider consciousness as the driving force behind what we experience of the physical world and the information that flows around us, I'm not particularly interested in science in the way that most people here are treating it. If the UFO's are demons which we conjured up within our psyche so be it, we could suggest that, if there are 10 or so dimensions, simply by becoming conscious of the effects of the human condition coupled with technological advancement : we actually create these entities in some other dimension, then they come to haunt us. This is theoretically possible.

 

These were my original points, that developments in our understanding of the quantum world have thrown science into a state of crisis. Old dualisms disintergrate

 

hyperdimensionality is a good hypothesis of the UFO phenomena, time and time again you hear people who aren't looking deeper into the phenomenon suggests the limited idea that 'aliens' couldn't have possibly travelled so far as to reach us.

Edited March 5, 2012 by articlevol

[Moontanman]

Thats not the way things work, not on a quantum level. You displayed a newtonian world view, get with it...

 

I don't need to prove anything, I don't have that kind of worldview.

 

I tend to consider consciousness as the driving force behind what we experience of the physical world and the information that flows around us, I'm not particularly interested in science in the way that most people here are treating it. If the UFO's are demons which we conjured up within our psyche so be it, we could suggest that, if there are 10 or so dimensions, simply by becoming conscious of the effects of the human condition coupled with technological advancement : we actually create these entities in some other dimension, then they come to haunt us. This is theoretically possible.

 

Mysticism?

 

These were my original points, that developments in our understanding of the quantum world have thrown science into a state of crisis. Old dualisms disintergrate

 

You really need to show some evidence of that.

 

hyperdimensionality is a good hypothesis of the UFO phenomena, time and time again you hear people who aren't looking deeper into the phenomenon suggests the limited idea that 'aliens' couldn't have possibly travelled so far as to reach us.

 

There is no reason to assume that aliens cannot have traveled from some place else in the galaxy to our solar system.

[Phi for All]

Thats not the way things work, not on a quantum level. You displayed a newtonian world view, get with it...

 

I don't need to prove anything, I don't have that kind of worldview.

 

I tend to consider consciousness as the driving force behind what we experience of the physical world and the information that flows around us, I'm not particularly interested in science in the way that most people here are treating it. If the UFO's are demons which we conjured up within our psyche so be it, we could suggest that, if there are 10 or so dimensions, simply by becoming conscious of the effects of the human condition coupled with technological advancement : we actually create these entities in some other dimension, then they come to haunt us. This is theoretically possible.

 

These were my original points, that developments in our understanding of the quantum world have thrown science into a state of crisis. Old dualisms disintergrate

 

hyperdimensionality is a good hypothesis of the UFO phenomena, time and time again you hear people who aren't looking deeper into the phenomenon suggests the limited idea that 'aliens' couldn't have possibly travelled so far as to reach us.

You asked when the Starchild Skull's DNA was proven to be human. I gave you a link that explained it in detail, with references to the relevant studies. As mooeypoo stated, you don't have to trust wikipedia, but you really should address the references to the studies if you want to be rigorous and intellectually honest.

 

And here at SFN, this is what we do. You asked a question, it was answered. You don't get to simply blow that answer off and keep insisting you're right. You need to do your part and refute the findings of that study, or admit that you were wrong. Otherwise, you're just trolling for emotional responses to your posts, and that's against the rules you agreed to when you joined.

[immortal]

Thats not the way things work, not on a quantum level. You displayed a newtonian world view, get with it...

 

I don't need to prove anything, I don't have that kind of worldview.

 

I tend to consider consciousness as the driving force behind what we experience of the physical world and the information that flows around us, I'm not particularly interested in science in the way that most people here are treating it. If the UFO's are demons which we conjured up within our psyche so be it, we could suggest that, if there are 10 or so dimensions, simply by becoming conscious of the effects of the human condition coupled with technological advancement : we actually create these entities in some other dimension, then they come to haunt us. This is theoretically possible.

 

These were my original points, that developments in our understanding of the quantum world have thrown science into a state of crisis. Old dualisms disintergrate

 

hyperdimensionality is a good hypothesis of the UFO phenomena, time and time again you hear people who aren't looking deeper into the phenomenon suggests the limited idea that 'aliens' couldn't have possibly travelled so far as to reach us.

 

Extra Dimensions if it exist have to be very small. Extra dimensions must be small

 

So its not theoretically possible get on with it..

[Keenidiot]

Ancient aliens has always struck me as terribly racist. It's rarely or never suggested that the Romans and Greeks had help, but any culture like the Egyptians or Sumerians ect. must have had assistance in order to learn domestication or building.

[articlevol]

Keenidiot,

 

 

Thats certainly not my understanding of Ancient Astronaut theory, I grew up around lots of books on the subject as my mother and her mother were advocates. My grandmother was a shaman and had accessed communication and knowledge of celestial beings. One book I remember as a child is this one http://www.amazon.co...31164402&sr=1-1

 

 

Many people consider the first extraterrestrial interventions to be traced back to Hyperborea and Atlantis rather than Sumer, which would have been predominantly caucasian. But i doubt many people here will be able to bring themselves to the consideration that civilisation might be 10's of thousands of years older than we think it is.

 

Edit: the other interesting thing is that the great Traditionalist philosophers like Rene Guenon talked about the first primordial knowledge of the true nature of God and spirituality coming from Hyperborea and Atlantis : Although they don't understand it as having been Alien intervention, they do see true knowledge coming from these regions in prehistory and it spiralling downwards and degrading into decadence and modernity since those times

 

Phi for All,

 

I was looking for emotional responses to my posts, but I wouldn't consider that trolling. Is emotion not ok? I like speculation and making new connections to the world up the way I want to see it, my argument was that with a new understanding of science, its ok to do this, its ok to be emotional. Imagination is the future, in all shapes and forms.

 

 

Immortal,

 

I don't understand, this makes no sense to me, if they do have to be small, what difference would that make and how would it make hyperdimensional ufo's impossible? Surly if they had developed technology that is say, millions of years ahead of ours, how can you say that? To just say 'oh it has to be small, so it wouldn't be like that' seems a pretty limited imagining of it

Edited March 8, 2012 by articlevol

[Keenidiot]

except.... Atlantis was a made up concept of a bronze age war like people that ancient Athens took out according to Plato. Do you also believe Lemuria was a real place?

[Phi for All]

I was looking for emotional responses to my posts, but I wouldn't consider that trolling. Is emotion not ok? I like speculation and making new connections to the world up the way I want to see it, my argument was that with a new understanding of science, its ok to do this, its ok to be emotional. Imagination is the future, in all shapes and forms.

It's not the emotion that's the problem. When someone offers compelling evidence against your idea, you either need to refute it or acknowledge it. If you just keep insisting you're right while that evidence is still out there, then it seems like you're just trying to anger the rest of us in the discussion. And that's trolling.

[articlevol]

Phi,

 

I already addressed that there is conflicting evidence on both sides, this kind of science based on 'evidence and data' wont get us any closer to the truth, especially when so many here only consider those things important and brush off mysticism, consiousness and anything connected the the new age, spirituality etc. At least the new age can embrace science, where science on its own us stuck.

 

considering this isn't going anywhere remotely interesting, il just stop bothering..

Edited March 8, 2012 by articlevol

[Tres Juicy]

I already addressed that there is conflicting evidence on both sides, this kind of science based on 'evidence and data'...

 

There is no other kind of science

 

...wont get us any closer to the truth,

 

It's done a really good job so far....

 

especially when so many here only consider those things important and brush off mysticism, consiousness and anything connected the the new age, spirituality etc. At least the new age can embrace science, where science on its own us stuck.

 

That's not how science works. Science considers all possibilities based on evidence and data, it brushes off things that do not have supporting evidence and data

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Science

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mysticism

 

Please note the differences in these fields

 

 

considering this isn't going anywhere remotely interesting, il just stop bothering..

 

If by "interesting" you mean fanciful, then you are correct

[Ophiolite]

 

considering this isn't going anywhere remotely interesting, il just stop bothering..

I read what you wrote, but I understand you to mean "Considering that none of you are prepared to agree with me and keep citing the success of science and the definition of scientific methdology to demonstrate that I am mistaken, and since I have no meaningful rebuttal I shall just run away."

[Moontanman]

I'd like to know how the ancients managed to move blocks of stone that weighed 1000 tons... that comes to 2,000,000 pounds, I'm not sure we could cut, move (sometimes hundreds of miles) and put these stones in place accurately.

 

I think there is some evidence that suggests ETs might have visited us, gold models of stylized jet aircraft are suggestive, some passages in ancient books that describe beings from the sky and they come with the sound of roaring thunder on pillars of flame type stuff.

 

In fact our whole idea of religion could have been inspired by ETs. Due to them already being here and colonizing our solar system and using it as raw materials to build their free orbiting colonies.

 

But then you have the silly parts that take away any seriousness of the idea, like the sons of God mating with the daughters if men. We'd be more likely to successfully mate with a petunia than ET...

 

On a better note, there is a good chance that WISE will be able to find any aliens in our solar system by detecting their waste heat.

[Tres Juicy]

 

But then you have the silly parts that take away any seriousness of the idea, like the sons of God mating with the daughters if men. We'd be more likely to successfully mate with a petunia than ET...

 

To be fair... These may refer to any kind of genetic experimentation. I would imagine they would just think of the results of these as being down to mating

[zapatos]

I think there is some evidence that suggests ETs might have visited us, gold models of stylized jet aircraft are suggestive, some passages in ancient books that describe beings from the sky and they come with the sound of roaring thunder on pillars of flame type stuff.

I had to double check to see who wrote this. This sounds like the same type of 'bronze age goat herder' evidence theists put forward to support their position.

[imatfaal]

I'd like to know how the ancients managed to move blocks of stone that weighed 1000 tons... that comes to 2,000,000 pounds, I'm not sure we could cut, move (sometimes hundreds of miles) and put these stones in place accurately.

Well a group did quarry, move and put up a set of three stones like those you would see at stonehenge. They quarried and moved the larger stone using old techniques that they believe would have been available at the time. There was a UK tv programme (that I think was US as well - ie discovery channel) that tried various projects from the prehistoric and ancient world.

 

I think there is some evidence that suggests ETs might have visited us, gold models of stylized jet aircraft are suggestive, some passages in ancient books that describe beings from the sky and they come with the sound of roaring thunder on pillars of flame type stuff.

Sounds a bit von Daniken to me - I have read his two books and it is just coincidence finding. Many of his spaceships can just as easily be interpreted as stylised birds

 

In fact our whole idea of religion could have been inspired by ETs. Due to them already being here and colonizing our solar system and using it as raw materials to build their free orbiting colonies.

 

But then you have the silly parts that take away any seriousness of the idea, like the sons of God mating with the daughters if men. We'd be more likely to successfully mate with a petunia than ET...

I dunno James T Kirk always seem to find aliens that look pretty and need to learn how to kiss.

 

On a better note, there is a good chance that WISE will be able to find any aliens in our solar system by detecting their waste heat.

How much infrared does the earth give off that would be a tell-tale of our presence? btw that's not a rhetorical - I really don't know, but my feeling would be that from any distance it would be masked by the natural albedo and more importantly the sun

[rajakrsna]

No one's insisting to deny it, we're insisting on having evidence before we accept it. There's a big difference.

 

Do you have any real evidence to show us here?

Not some theoretical stories - real evidence. Show us some of that, and accept scrutiny (like any other scientific theory) and if it passes the scrutiny, the scientific community will accept it.

 

Easy.

 

~mooey

 

 

Real evidence is the example I gave on radioactive decay of a uranium atom-238, the basis for the " I am the Alpha & Omega " in Revelation 22:13

 

http://www.scienceforums.net/topic/64926-im-the-alpha-omega-revelation-2213/

 

 

 

[mooeypoo]

Real evidence is the example I gave on radioactive decay of a uranium atom-238, the basis for the " I am the Alpha & Omega " in Revelation 22:13

 

http://www.sciencefo...evelation-2213/

 

 

 

 

... Did you just give the bible as evidence? I'm not quite sure what exactly it means, especially since "I'm the alpha & omega" is quite a vague statement that could mean a whole array of different things.

 

You seem to misunderstand what "evidence" means. You propose casual connections between various objects as "evidence. These aren't evidence. They might be good enough to "enhance" the evidence-base in case you had real evidence to support the case in general, but they are not sufficient on their own to prove it.

 

Evidence are examined independently. In this case, you're showing a relationship that *you* make between the written text (in one vague passage, that may or may not mean that) and the atomic model that was actually discovered almost two millenia after.

 

Let me propose an example to show you why this evidence is completely insufficient. Let's say I propose that there are invisible unicorns around us that lead us to our "destination" in life. A sort of "karmic guides".

 

You, naturally, will ask me for evidence (I hope).

 

I will then explain why this idea makes sense.

That's fine, and wonderful story-telling, but it's hardly enough to prove the concept, is it?

 

I will then propose a list of quotes from various sources of scripture (and if you actually want me to, I can do that for the sake of showing this example) -- that tell something about karma, the karmic purpose in life, and unicorns, and some connection between them and our lives.

 

Those are great for mythological debates, but they're not quite sufficient to prove the claim I put forward. Part of the reason is that I am missing the point. Before I can show that karmic guide unicorns existed throughout history, I should first show karmic guide unicorns exist at all.

 

And then, of course, I need to show that they interact with human beings at all, and that this is measurable and detectable.

 

Only then can I show how it has been done throughout history.

 

 

You seem to fall into the same logic pit. You try to show how aliens have helped humanity throughout ancient times, but your evidence is not quite on point.

 

You first need to show that

 

1. Aliens of this specific type (similar to humans enough to not be, say, a blob of goo made of antimatter) exist.
2. That these aliens came to planet earth and interacted with human beings at all in a detectable, observable matter.
   Stating conspiracies is fine up to a point; at some point, you'd have to support this with some sort of concrete evidence for us to follow you on that one. Otherwise, how are we supposed to differentiate between real conspiracies and fake ones? There has to be some sort of real evidence, especially after such a long time, and supposedly such a long and global intervention by said aliens. No one is *that* good in hiding evidence to such a thing, and by the claims, it seemed the aliens didn't really try to hide it either.
3. That the structures you speak of, and the events you describe, could not have been done by human beings, and were instead led or done by those aliens.

Number three is a toughie, by the way. Many of those (including the pyramids, and things like crop circles) were shown to be possible to be built by humanity, and were actually described in history by the process of building them precisely by human workers and slaves.

 

That's also true for many of the Mayan relics out there.

 

 

 

 

So as you can see, we seem to be speaking a bit of a different conceptual language. We don't just dismiss you off hand -- if we did, we'd just not waste our time debating with you at all. Instead, we are open minded to be exposed to new evidence, but the evidence need to be concrete enough to match the claim itself (Which is quite bombastic, you have to admit, and must depend on the three conditions above, neither one of them proven).

 

The main issue with science is that you have to have proper evidence, otherwise you might accept theories that are fundamentally wrong, and that will throw off a lot of the point of doing science and doing research.

 

We do have an open mind, but we're also being careful not to have too much of an open mind as to let our brains fall out.

 

I think what we're asking for is reasonable, don't you?

 

~mooey

[hypervalent_iodine]

!

Moderator Note

rajaksrna, this stops now. Thread hijacking is not allowed. Once again, I ask that you read the rules that you agreed to when you signed up and start abiding by them or your time here will be very short.

Do not respond to this modnote.

[rktpro]

I have not read the text but isn't it that it has nothing to do with the motion of planets and more to do with the Sun God and his chariots i.e the way he moves from Uttarayana and Dakshinayana.

 

It is interesting to note that both the Mayan and the Hindu calendar start with the same starting dates around 3102BCE but the Hindu calendar doesn't end on this year, it continues for 432000.

 

Yes, it is based on Uttarayana and Dakshinayana.