Driving Animals with Electricity

[Proton Head]

Suppose I attached magnetic particles to the rotating subunits of the ATP synthases.

Then I'd set a rotating magnetic field around the subject.

I guess it would start its rotation and synthesize ATP, or maybe not...

 

A bigger problem would likely to be how to align the mitochondria, so all the synthases would rotate in the correct direction.

Maybe use another field to align them from time to time.

 

Also unless you had spesific magnetic particles inside your body, the rate of ATP synthesis would be kind of uniform.

[LucidDreamer]

The protein sub-units involved in ATP synthesis or ADP Phosphorlization are not rotating like a top or a carousel; they are embedded in the membrane of the mitochondria. The ATP proteins pass an electron from protein to protein and the resulting electrochemical imbalance powers the phospholization of ADP to become ATP.

 

There is another part to the creation of ATP called the Citric Acid Cycle. It doesn't rotate either; rather there are a series of reactions that lead back to the starting compound. That is why they call it a cycle. This produces the electron carrying units that power the creation of ATP.

 

Any particles that you attached to the sub-units of ATP synthesis would not really be magnetic particles; they would just be charged with one or a few negative or positive charges. They would have to be very small molecules and you could not make a molecule that would just bind to the different ATP subunits and not the other molecules of the cell. If you could then you could not get the subunits, arranged chaotically throughout the cell, to uniformly rotate.

[Proton Head]

The ATP synthase enzyme has two parts, a membrane part embedded in the inner mitochondrial membrane and a soluble part which resides inside the mitochondrial matrix. Each of these two parts is composed of multiple subunits, and the soluble part of the enzyme inside the mitochondrial matrix contains the rotating complex which actually catalyzes ATP production.

 

The two parts are linked by a gamma-subunit which allows the soluble part to rotate. Normally this rotation is powered by the movement of protons from the inner mitochondrial membrane into the mitochondrial matrix.

 

The ATP synthase actually catalyzes the formation of ATP from ADP and P even without the presence of the proton gradient, however the gradient is needed to release the formed ATP molecule from the enzyme. This is achieved through the rotation of the complex, powered by the proton gradient.

Now then I'm not sure whether a rotation by other means would actually release the bound ATP molecule, but I see no reason why it wouldn't.

 

The Citric Acid Cycle is only important in producing the electron carrier molecules which cause the redox reactions in which the proton gradient is formed between the inner membrane. In the actual synthesis of ATP the cycle is meaningless.

 

Why couldn't I use magnetic particles? Of course I could. And there already exists methods for linking such magnetic particles to different biomolecules. This is a standard technique in gene technology for example.

And depending on the subunit and place of the subunit protein to which the magnetic particle was bound, the ATP synthase complex could be made to organize with no problem.

[LucidDreamer]

Ah, my mistake. You are just talking about the last stage of oxidative phosphorlyation where the molecule ATP synthase uses a rotating motor, which is powered by the protons. I was thinking you were talking about the whole chain or the citric acid cycle and I should have known what you were talking about.

 

Ok, since we are just talking about the ATP synthase molecule lets just imagine that we did create a suitable charged molecule to attach to it.

 

Now you have two major problems with trying to get the synthase molecule to rotate as I see it.

 

1) Anything strong enough to get the charged molecules moving might be strong enough to rip apart the mitochondria.

 

2) Then there is the major one that you pointed out. Since the mitochondria membrane is full of chaotic in-foldings the ATP synthases would be all be oriented differently so no magnetic field could get them to all rotate with any kind of synchronization.

[Proton Head]

I have to admit that I totally disregarded the fact that even inside a single mitochondrion the ATP synthases face different directions (I only thought that the problem would arise with multiple mitochondria facing different directions). So unless some highly specialized (unrealistic) way of forming site specific magnetic fields was formed, the mitochondrions would have to operate nonoptimally.

 

However there is one thing that I hadn't thought myself. Why exactly do we need mitochondria? Why is it that ATP synthases and other energy metabolism enzymes can't reside on walls of endemic organelles or folds in the palsma membrane.

I'm not totally sure of this but I believe the main reason for this is that it's important to have an energy forming unit which can move around the cell to sites of high energy consumption. Also the reasons can be evolutionary. These proteins evolved in the membrane of some species, and instead of them forming later on the membranes of other species they started a symbiotic relationship with the species which already had the needed proteins.

The problem of asymmetry could however be solved by modifying the mitochondria or dispersing ATP synthases to other structures in the cell.

All in all however it would be very difficult to in any way regulate the synthesis of ATP, not to mention regulate the syntheisi in different parts of the cell. About the only thing we could do is decide the number of ATP synthases in different cells.

Further control could only be obtained by making a new inhibitory route inside the cell which would block a number of synthases from working depending on the amount of the inhibitor.

 

 

However the one thing which I don't understand is why are you constantly referring to charged particles?

Using magnetic particles would allow us to rotate the synthase with a magnetic field. The mitochondria to all my knowledge hold no (at least as strong as the added particle) magnetic parts, so it wouldn't react to the field in any way (at least if we disregard the fact that a changing magnetic field induces an electric field, how strong this electric field would become I have no idea of since I have no idea of the intensity of the magnetic field required to turn the synthases but I doubt it would be that large as to harm cellular functions).

[LucidDreamer]

However there is one thing that I hadn't thought myself. Why exactly do we need mitochondria? Why is it that ATP synthases and other energy metabolism enzymes can't reside on walls of endemic organelles or folds in the palsma membrane.

As you have mentioned' date=' organisms such as bacteria have the ATP producing molecules in the cellular membrane. The advantage to having the mitochondria is all of the extra membrane surface area allows for a greater production of ATP. There are many mitochondria inside of an eukaryotic cell and all of the mitochondria have many infoldings, which creates even more membrane surface area for all of the proteins of the electron chain and the ATP synthases.

 

This greater energy production allows for a larger cell. Eukaryotic cells are much larger than bacterial cells and their area to cellular membrane ratio is much larger so they have greater energy requirements. By having all of the membrane hogging ATP synthesizing proteins inside of the mitochondria membrane you also free up membrane area for other essential cellular membrane proteins such as ion channels and receptors.

 

However the one thing which I don't understand is why are you constantly referring to charged particles?

Using magnetic particles would allow us to rotate the synthase with a magnetic field. The mitochondria to all my knowledge hold no (at least as strong as the added particle) magnetic parts, so it wouldn't react to the field in any way (at least if we disregard the fact that a changing magnetic field induces an electric field, how strong this electric field would become I have no idea of since I have no idea of the intensity of the magnetic field required to turn the synthases but I doubt it would be that large as to harm cellular functions).

The term magnet is usually applied to larger masses that have many dipoles that have all been aligned to create a polarized magnetic field. Small particles can have charges but usually are not called magnets. Sometimes they are refereed to as being polarized when there is a charge separation or multiple charges. I suppose you could have a particle with multiple charges that are polarized and you could refer to it as a magnet.

 

A charged particle will also respond to a magnetic field. A small molecule that attaches to the ATP synthases can only have so much charge and the more charge it has the more difficult it will be to get it inside of the membrane and mitochondria. The cell and the mitochondria are filled with charged proteins and molecules that would also respond to any kind of magnetic force that you applied to it. A magnetic field strong enough and focused enough to move your ATP synthase attaching molecule would also affect all of the other charged particles in the mitochondria.

[Proton Head]

As you have mentioned' date=' organisms such as bacteria have the ATP producing molecules in the cellular membrane. The advantage to having the mitochondria is all of the extra membrane surface area allows for a greater production of ATP. There are many mitochondria inside of an eukaryotic cell and all of the mitochondria have many infoldings, which creates even more membrane surface area for all of the proteins of the electron chain and the ATP synthases.

 

This greater energy production allows for a larger cell. Eukaryotic cells are much larger than bacterial cells and their area to cellular membrane ratio is much larger so they have greater energy requirements. By having all of the membrane hogging ATP synthesizing proteins inside of the mitochondria membrane you also free up membrane area for other essential cellular membrane proteins such as ion channels and receptors..[/quote']

 

Yes this is true but the thing I was wondering is that why do the cells keep the mitochondria? Why not take all of the bacteria's chromosome and incorporate the proteins on its own cellular organelles composed of bilayers? What's the point of that? This would in no way affect membrane area limitations, if there were no symbiotic bacteria but instead cellular membranes then the need for space would be the same.

 

The term magnet is usually applied to larger masses that have many dipoles that have all been aligned to create a polarized magnetic field. Small particles can have charges but usually are not called magnets. Sometimes they are refereed to as being polarized when there is a charge separation or multiple charges. I suppose you could have a particle with multiple charges that are polarized and you could refer to it as a magnet.

 

A charged particle will also respond to a magnetic field. A small molecule that attaches to the ATP synthases can only have so much charge and the more charge it has the more difficult it will be to get it inside of the membrane and mitochondria. The cell and the mitochondria are filled with charged proteins and molecules that would also respond to any kind of magnetic force that you applied to it. A magnetic field strong enough and focused enough to move your ATP synthase attaching molecule would also affect all of the other charged particles in the mitochondria.

 

Yes a moving charge is what creates a magnetic field, so a moving charge reacts to a magnetic field. So as every one of the charged molecules/ions in the cell are constantly moving they are constantly generating a magnetic field and responding to the magnetic fields from other cellular molecules and outside magnetic fields (the one from Earth which is quite strong). But still the Earth's magnetic field doesn't pull these molecules to one side of the cell, because there are other factors. Thermal motion and electric forces etc. Otherwise keeping a home magnet near you would be lethal.

 

Also there are molecules that do not carry a net charge, but they still respond to magnetic fields (and form their owns) due to unbalanced electric movement "inside" the molecule. So not all charged/uncharged molecules respond to magnetic fields as well, not even thhose carrying equal charges.

 

I still believe that if there was a strong magnetic particle (molecule) attached to a protein, a rotating outside magnetic field would make it turn wihtout messing up the cell.

[Proton Head]

As you have mentioned' date=' organisms such as bacteria have the ATP producing molecules in the cellular membrane. The advantage to having the mitochondria is all of the extra membrane surface area allows for a greater production of ATP. There are many mitochondria inside of an eukaryotic cell and all of the mitochondria have many infoldings, which creates even more membrane surface area for all of the proteins of the electron chain and the ATP synthases.

 

This greater energy production allows for a larger cell. Eukaryotic cells are much larger than bacterial cells and their area to cellular membrane ratio is much larger so they have greater energy requirements. By having all of the membrane hogging ATP synthesizing proteins inside of the mitochondria membrane you also free up membrane area for other essential cellular membrane proteins such as ion channels and receptors..[/quote']

 

Yes this is true but the thing I was wondering is that why do the cells keep the mitochondria? Why not take all of the bacteria's chromosome and incorporate the proteins on its own cellular organelles composed of bilayers? What's the point of that? This would in no way affect membrane area limitations, if there were no symbiotic bacteria but instead cellular membranes then the need for space would be the same.

 

The term magnet is usually applied to larger masses that have many dipoles that have all been aligned to create a polarized magnetic field. Small particles can have charges but usually are not called magnets. Sometimes they are refereed to as being polarized when there is a charge separation or multiple charges. I suppose you could have a particle with multiple charges that are polarized and you could refer to it as a magnet.

 

A charged particle will also respond to a magnetic field. A small molecule that attaches to the ATP synthases can only have so much charge and the more charge it has the more difficult it will be to get it inside of the membrane and mitochondria. The cell and the mitochondria are filled with charged proteins and molecules that would also respond to any kind of magnetic force that you applied to it. A magnetic field strong enough and focused enough to move your ATP synthase attaching molecule would also affect all of the other charged particles in the mitochondria.

 

Yes a moving charge is what creates a magnetic field, so a moving charge reacts to a magnetic field. So as every one of the charged molecules/ions in the cell are constantly moving they are constantly generating a magnetic field and responding to the magnetic fields from other cellular molecules and outside magnetic fields (the one from Earth which is quite strong). But still the Earth's magnetic field doesn't pull these molecules to one side of the cell, because there are other factors. Thermal motion and electric forces etc. Otherwise keeping a home magnet near you would be lethal.

 

Also there are molecules that do not carry a net charge, but they still respond to magnetic fields (and form their owns) due to unbalanced electric movement "inside" the molecule. So not all charged/uncharged molecules respond to magnetic fields as well, not even thhose carrying equal charges.

 

I still believe that if there was a strong magnetic particle (molecule) attached to a protein, a rotating outside magnetic field would make it turn wihtout messing up the cell.

[LucidDreamer]

Yes this is true but the thing I was wondering is that why do the cells keep the mitochondria? Why not take all of the bacteria's chromosome and incorporate the proteins on its own cellular organelles composed of bilayers? What's the point of that? This would in no way affect membrane area limitations' date=' if there were no symbiotic bacteria but instead cellular membranes then the need for space would be the same.

[/quote']

Evolution is not a planned process. It's an ad hoc process that's very opportunistic. A cell or organism can't decide what it wants to be; it only responds to pressures by dying or surviving. The organism that first incorporated the mitochondria did very well for itself and that is why we are here now.

 

The other organelles that you mentioned each have their own functions within the cell. It would be difficult to imagine a hybrid organelle of say a lysosome, which uses strong enzymes to break down proteins, and the energy-forming mitochondria, which uses several proteins that are can be broken down by the lysosome's enzymes. I think the having a specialized compartment that focuses on producing energy works very well.

 

Some of the genes that code for the mitochondria’s proteins have been incorporated over time into the nuclear chromosomes.

 

The symbiotic bacteria, which were the ancestors to the mitochondria, produced excess energy for the host cell and the host cell provided protection or some other benefit to the mitochondria like bacteria. The advantage of this relationship is specialization where each partner carries out a specific role that it can do better than its partner or in which the relationship allows each one to perform a function better.

 

Also there are molecules that do not carry a net charge' date=' but they still respond to magnetic fields (and form their owns) due to unbalanced electric movement "inside" the molecule. So not all charged/uncharged molecules respond to magnetic fields as well, not even thhose carrying equal charges.

 

I still believe that if there was a strong magnetic particle (molecule) attached to a protein, a rotating outside magnetic field would make it turn wihtout messing up the cell.[/quote']

I really don't know. Honestly I really don't know very much about nano magnets or if there is such a thing. If there is such a thing then you may be able to get a better reaction, like an actual acceleration, from the nano magnet.

 

But I am pretty sure that you couldn't get the ATP synthases to respond with any kind of coordinated movement because of the very chaotic arrangement within the enfoldings of the mitochondrial membrane.

[LucidDreamer]

Yes this is true but the thing I was wondering is that why do the cells keep the mitochondria? Why not take all of the bacteria's chromosome and incorporate the proteins on its own cellular organelles composed of bilayers? What's the point of that? This would in no way affect membrane area limitations' date=' if there were no symbiotic bacteria but instead cellular membranes then the need for space would be the same.

[/quote']

Evolution is not a planned process. It's an ad hoc process that's very opportunistic. A cell or organism can't decide what it wants to be; it only responds to pressures by dying or surviving. The organism that first incorporated the mitochondria did very well for itself and that is why we are here now.

 

The other organelles that you mentioned each have their own functions within the cell. It would be difficult to imagine a hybrid organelle of say a lysosome, which uses strong enzymes to break down proteins, and the energy-forming mitochondria, which uses several proteins that are can be broken down by the lysosome's enzymes. I think the having a specialized compartment that focuses on producing energy works very well.

 

Some of the genes that code for the mitochondria’s proteins have been incorporated over time into the nuclear chromosomes.

 

The symbiotic bacteria, which were the ancestors to the mitochondria, produced excess energy for the host cell and the host cell provided protection or some other benefit to the mitochondria like bacteria. The advantage of this relationship is specialization where each partner carries out a specific role that it can do better than its partner or in which the relationship allows each one to perform a function better.

 

Also there are molecules that do not carry a net charge' date=' but they still respond to magnetic fields (and form their owns) due to unbalanced electric movement "inside" the molecule. So not all charged/uncharged molecules respond to magnetic fields as well, not even thhose carrying equal charges.

 

I still believe that if there was a strong magnetic particle (molecule) attached to a protein, a rotating outside magnetic field would make it turn wihtout messing up the cell.[/quote']

I really don't know. Honestly I really don't know very much about nano magnets or if there is such a thing. If there is such a thing then you may be able to get a better reaction, like an actual acceleration, from the nano magnet.

 

But I am pretty sure that you couldn't get the ATP synthases to respond with any kind of coordinated movement because of the very chaotic arrangement within the enfoldings of the mitochondrial membrane.