Spaghettifission

[ydoaPs]

Are the tidal forces of a black hole that cause spaghettification strong enough to rip apart the bonds holding the atoms of the the spaghettified matter together? If so, what about the bonds of the nuclei? Can any non-elementary matter make it to the event horizon of a Black Hole?

 

I'm thinking that it might be strong enough to cause fission, but not strong enough to break down all matter into elementary constituents since the amount of energy it takes to pull out a quark from a bound system is enough to create a partner for it to bind with.

[Xittenn]

Is 'spaghettified matter' congruent to quark-gluon plasma????

[ydoaPs]

Is 'spaghettified matter' congruent to quark-gluon plasma????

 

Can quarks exist as a quark-gluon plasma? I thought the gluons would make the quarks bound.

 

I was using "spaghettified matter" as anything that was spaghettified on its way to the event horizon.

[Xittenn]

http://www.bnl.gov/rhic/news/091107/story2.asp

[ydoaPs]

If matter falling into a black hole got spaghettified to the point of being quark-gluon plasma, would that have a different radiation signature than normal matter?

[Xittenn]

Abhas Mitra, On the non-occurrence of Type I X-ray bursts from the black hole candidates, Advances in Space Research, Volume 38, Issue 12, 2006, Pages 2917-2919, ISSN 0273-1177, 10.1016/j.asr.2006.02.074.

 

(http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0273117706002523)

 

 

If I'm reading this correctly the answer to your question is yes, but the more specific details covered are more so the lack of specific xray signatures in explaining certain matter phenomena that point to QGP as a theoretical explanation.

[IM Egdall]

Are the tidal forces of a black hole that cause spaghettification strong enough to rip apart the bonds holding the atoms of the the spaghettified matter together? If so, what about the bonds of the nuclei? Can any non-elementary matter make it to the event horizon of a Black Hole?

 

I'm thinking that it might be strong enough to cause fission, but not strong enough to break down all matter into elementary constituents since the amount of energy it takes to pull out a quark from a bound system is enough to create a partner for it to bind with.

 

 

I believe the spacetime curvature (gravity) of a black hole is so strong it overcomes all forces, including atomic bonds and nuclear bonds. But i am not sure about your quark question.

[DrRocket]

Are the tidal forces of a black hole that cause spaghettification strong enough to rip apart the bonds holding the atoms of the the spaghettified matter together? If so, what about the bonds of the nuclei? Can any non-elementary matter make it to the event horizon of a Black Hole?

 

I'm thinking that it might be strong enough to cause fission, but not strong enough to break down all matter into elementary constituents since the amount of energy it takes to pull out a quark from a bound system is enough to create a partner for it to bind with.

 

There is NO theory at this time that is able to handle quantum effects and strong gravitational effects simultaneously.

 

The event horizon of a large black hole, to a local observer, is unremarkable. The "weird" effects that you read about in popularizations are only significant well inside the event horizon. Extremely deep inside the event horizon, where quantum effects are expected to be important, the physics is a total mystery.

 

"Spaghetification" is merely a fanciful statement of the fact that tidal forces near a very massive gravitational source are large. But you experience tidal effects yourself; it is just that they are small. Because the gravitational force of the Earth drops of as the square of the distance from the center, the force is a tiny bit stronger at your feet than at your head when you stand upright. If the Earth were much more massive and much smaller in diameter the effect would be more pronounced.

 

I believe the spacetime curvature (gravity) of a black hole is so strong it overcomes all forces, including atomic bonds and nuclear bonds. But i am not sure about your quark question.

 

Belief belongs in religion.

 

No one knows what happens when both gravity and the quantum interactions are all important.

[ydoaPs]

There is NO theory at this time that is able to handle quantum effects and strong gravitational effects simultaneously.

 

The event horizon of a large black hole, to a local observer, is unremarkable. The "weird" effects that you read about in popularizations are only significant well inside the event horizon. Extremely deep inside the event horizon, where quantum effects are expected to be important, the physics is a total mystery.

 

Good thing I wasn't talking about what goes in inside the event horizon, but rather talking about what happens before it even gets there.

 

"Spaghetification" is merely a fanciful statement of the fact that tidal forces near a very massive gravitational source are large.

 

This is no different than what I said above. The question is whether or not the tidal forces are strong enough to overcome the nuclear forces.

[DrRocket]

Good thing I wasn't talking about what goes in inside the event horizon, but rather talking about what happens before it even gets there.

 

In which case it is abundantly clear that nothing at all happens. Things are rather ordinary outside and even immediately inside the event horizon of a large black hole.

[ydoaPs]

In which case it is abundantly clear that nothing at all happens. Things are rather ordinary outside and even immediately inside the event horizon of a large black hole.

 

Except for the extreme tidal forces which are the subject of the thread.

[MigL]

As DrR has stated several times, a large, galactic centre sized (>1000000 solar masses ) black hole would have very weak tidal ( differential gravity ) forces until well inside the event horizon. You wouldn't notice any difference upon crossing the event horizon until much later. A very small black hole or, for that matter even a neutron star, would have severe tidal forces ( even outside the event horizon of the small black hole ).

[DrRocket]

Except for the extreme tidal forces which are the subject of the thread.

 

Completely, totally, utterly wrong.

[ydoaPs]

Completely, totally, utterly wrong.

 

You got me; tidal forces don't exist.

[DrRocket]

As DrR has stated several times, a large, galactic centre sized (>1000000 solar masses ) black hole would have very weak tidal ( differential gravity ) forces until well inside the event horizon. You wouldn't notice any difference upon crossing the event horizon until much later. A very small black hole or, for that matter even a neutron star, would have severe tidal forces ( even outside the event horizon of the small black hole ).

 

Completely, totall utterly correct.

 

You got me; tidal forces don't exist.

 

You are getting more ignorant rather than more informed. Neat.

Edited March 11, 2012 by DrRocket

[ydoaPs]

Completely, totall utterly correct.

 

Which is what I said. There exist black holes with extreme tidal forces outside the event horizon. Now that we've got that established, let's get to the question.

 

Is it possible for a black hole to have tidal forces strong enough to rip apart atom (or even constituent nucleons)?

[Xittenn]

 

I'm not allowed to use the image extension on this board?? :/

 

**edit**

 

thanks daddyPops

Edited March 11, 2012 by Xittenn

[hypervalent_iodine]

How strange. Just testing:

 

 

Ah. So I think the wiki image might have some copyright issues or something to that effect.

[ydoaPs]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Neutron_star_cross_section.svg

 

I'm not allowed to use the image extension on this board?? :/

 

That's not the link to the image. This is: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/9/9e/Neutron_star_cross_section.svg/800px-Neutron_star_cross_section.svg.png

[Xittenn]

Which is what I said. There exist black holes with extreme tidal forces outside the event horizon. Now that we've got that established, let's get to the question.

 

Is it possible for a black hole to have tidal forces strong enough to rip apart atom (or even constituent nucleons)?

 

 

There is some theoretical stuff that is trying to find an energy point that is created by micro black holes that would establish a 'Grand Unified Theory' between GR and QFT. They are looking at bonding of micro black holes as gravity will suddenly have a magnitude on par with the other forces. I don't see any in between where in fact we would see Quark Gluon Plasma outside of the event horizon, as DrRocket has pointed out already. But it is a very interesting thing to have gone over! : )

[Cap'n Refsmmat]

You got me; tidal forces don't exist.

 

Completely, totall utterly correct.

You are getting more ignorant rather than more informed. Neat.

Both of you, please communicate instead of using creative sarcasm and snide comments. You are not helping your points.

 

Ah. So I think the wiki image might have some copyright issues or something to that effect.

If Xittenn tried to embed the image she linked to, there would indeed be an error, because IPB won't let you use .svg files as images -- older browsers don't support them in img tags. You'd have to do what ydoaPs did, and link to the PNG version that Wikipedia provides.

[DrRocket]

Which is what I said. There exist black holes with extreme tidal forces outside the event horizon. Now that we've got that established, let's get to the question.

 

Is it possible for a black hole to have tidal forces strong enough to rip apart atom (or even constituent nucleons)?

 

We have established nothing except that you are not listening.

 

It is fairly easy to calculate the gradient as a function of radial distance from the center of the gravitational acceleration for both neutron stars at their surface and black holes at the event horizon.

 

For a neutron star that gradient is about [math] -3.4 \times 10^{8} \frac {1}{s^2}[/math] and for a black hole of only 2 solar masses it is about [math] -5.2 \times 10^{9}\frac {1}{s^2}[/math] That qualifies as severe, as quoted by MigL, but hardly extreme in the context of inter-atomic or nuclear forces. For instance, two one kilogram masses separated by one millimeter would experience differential force (i.e. tidal force) of about 76,210 lbf in the first case and 115,000 lbf in the second case. These forces are well within what can be routinely applied in Earth-bound tensile testing machines, and in fact are well within the structural capability of common steel bars of one-inch cross section.

 

Atomic and nuclear masses are quite a bit less than 1 Kg and separation distances are quite a bit more than 1 mm. But the same forces that operate at those distances and masses are what hold ordinary material together. Mushroom clouds have not been reported over the sites of mechanical pull testing machines.

 

The tidal forces at the event horizon, of even a smallish black hole are not at all "extreme" in the context usually associated with the "spaghettificataion" discussed in popularizations for children. They are not even extreme in the context of typical material properties for structural materials used in everyday construction.

[ydoaPs]

For a neutron star that gradient is about [math] -3.4 \times 10^{8} \frac {1}{s^2}[/math] and for a black hole of only 2 solar masses it is about [math] -5.2 \times 10^{9}\frac {1}{s^2}[/math] That qualifies as severe, as quoted by MigL, but hardly extreme in the context of inter-atomic or nuclear forces. For instance, two one kilogram masses separated by one millimeter would experience differential force (i.e. tidal force) of about 76,210 lbf in the first case and 115,000 lbf in the second case.

 

Now was that really so hard?

[DrRocket]

Now was that really so hard?

 

 

Yes. This is elementary stuff and I do not intend to waste any more time on you. It merely codifies the obvious.

 

You should have done this for yourself or else stopped offering nonsensical arguments.

 

When you don't know what in the hell you are talking about it sometimes advisable to shut up, listen and do your own damn homework.

[hypervalent_iodine]

!

Moderator Note

ydoaPs and DrRocket,

You both need to start showing a little bit more maturity here. If you don't have anything constructive and polite to say, then don't say anything.