Degenerate matter

[questionposter]

Ok, I'm going to take a leap and see if this works...

 

Degenerate matter, very dense, much like boss-einstein condensates, but are the atoms in degenerate matter entangled?

[imatfaal]

Ok, I'm going to take a leap and see if this works...

 

Degenerate matter, very dense, much like boss-einstein condensates, but are the atoms in degenerate matter entangled?

 

Are there "atoms" in degenerate matter? Even in white dwarfs there is an almost complete stripping of electrons from nuclei - and in other cases of degenerate matter (beyond electron degeneracy) there are not even recognizable ions let alone neutral atoms

[MigL]

Could be atomic.

 

Degenerate just means ( in the case of white dwarfs ) that all lowest electron energy states are full and any further compression would violate Pauli's exclusion principle.

 

Neutron degeneracy ( as in neutron stars ) would lose any semblance of atomicity since it would be composed mainly of neutrons, the electrons having been forced from their lowest energy states into the nucleus to combine with protons.

[questionposter]

Sure, but in the case of liquid helium, the only thing that's happening is that the atomic particles are moving closer together and staying closer togather, yet the substance exists primarily in a state of entanglement.

In degenerate matter, the particles are also very close together, even if those particles aren't whole atoms.

Edited March 20, 2012 by questionposter

[swansont]

Sure, but in the case of liquid helium, the only thing that's happening is that the atomic particles are moving closer together and staying closer togather, yet the substance exists primarily in a state of entanglement.

 

In what way are they entangled?

[questionposter]

In what way are they entangled?

 

Well with bose-einstein condensates in general, the atoms are suppose to be entangled so that their wave functions overlap and you can see few quantum mechanical effects in the macroscopic realm.

Edited March 20, 2012 by questionposter

[swansont]

Well with bose-einstein condensates in general, the atoms are suppose to be entangled so that their wave functions overlap and you can see few quantum mechanical effects in the macroscopic realm.

 

That's not entanglement as the term is usually used. Entanglement is a superposition that can't be decomposed into individual states, since these states are undetermined until measured. BECs simply have all the atoms in the same state.

[questionposter]

That's not entanglement as the term is usually used. Entanglement is a superposition that can't be decomposed into individual states, since these states are undetermined until measured. BECs simply have all the atoms in the same state.

 

What other term is there for atoms occupying the same quantum state while occupying different spacial coordinates?

[swansont]

What other term is there for atoms occupying the same quantum state while occupying different spacial coordinates?

 

In a BEC, the point is that you can't say they have different coordinates.

[questionposter]

In a BEC, the point is that you can't say they have different coordinates.

 

Couldn't their proximity make it so that the atoms instantaneously form an entangled system the moment we aren't measuring it? When we measure atoms all we get are these little points that we observe for only a brief period of time, and any amount of time between that measurement and the next measurement, they atoms could be entangled?

 

And wait, if you can't say those atoms have different spacial coordinates due to occupying the same quantum state, why is that not entanglement? What other word would BBS use?

Edited March 21, 2012 by questionposter

[swansont]

Couldn't their proximity make it so that the atoms instantaneously form an entangled system the moment we aren't measuring it? When we measure atoms all we get are these little points that we observe for only a brief period of time, and any amount of time between that measurement and the next measurement, they atoms could be entangled?

 

And wait, if you can't say those atoms have different spacial coordinates due to occupying the same quantum state, why is that not entanglement? What other word would BBS use?

 

What quantum states are supposedly entangled?

[questionposter]

What quantum states are supposedly entangled?

 

In degenerate matter, I din't know, that's kind of what I'm asking about, but in liquid helium, the ground states, only with degenerate matter, it's a similar thing except with high energy, so could degenerate matter have overlapping wave-functions to also cause macroscopic entanglement like liquid helium?

Edited March 21, 2012 by questionposter

[swansont]

What is the nature of the entanglement in liquid helium?

[questionposter]

What is the nature of the entanglement in liquid helium?

 

Well if you too also saw that BBC episode, some properties were being able to fall through containers and small cracks as well as climb up walls and move without friction, which I think is more to do with inertness and 0 thermal capacity, and then there was something about all the physical spins of the atoms of the liquid being synchronized, and that by occupying the same quantum state, the atoms could all have physical simultaneous effects simultaneously with the same momentum, since I suppose as you said earlier, if they all share the same state, they aren't really a separate particle.

 

http://www.wisegeek....-superfluid.htm

Edited March 22, 2012 by questionposter

[swansont]

Well if you too also saw that BBC episode, some properties were being able to fall through containers and small cracks as well as climb up walls and move without friction, which I think is more to do with inertness and 0 thermal capacity, and then there was something about all the physical spins of the atoms of the liquid being synchronized, and that by occupying the same quantum state, the atoms could all have physical simultaneous effects simultaneously with the same momentum, since I suppose as you said earlier, if they all share the same state, they aren't really a separate particle.

 

http://www.wisegeek....-superfluid.htm

 

That's superfluidity, not entanglement.

[questionposter]

That's superfluidity, not entanglement.

 

What's the difference between that superfluidity and multiple atoms sharing the same quantum state with overlapping wave functions as to have synchronized responses over various 3-D coordinates?

Edited March 22, 2012 by questionposter

[swansont]

What's the difference between that superfluidity and multiple atoms sharing the same quantum state with overlapping wave functions as to have synchronized responses over various 3-D coordinates?

 

Entanglement is a superposition that can't be decomposed into individual states, since these states are undetermined until measured. BECs simply have all the atoms in the same state.

 

Same goes for a superfluid.

[questionposter]

Same goes for a superfluid.

 

So if the "same" goes for both instances, how are those instances not the same?

[swansont]

So if the "same" goes for both instances, how are those instances not the same?

 

AFAIK they are, in this regard. Neither a BEC nor a superfluid are entangled.

[questionposter]

AFAIK they are, in this regard. Neither a BEC nor a superfluid are entangled.

 

So is superfluidity existing as entangled particles and more? Kind of like how a square is a rectangle but a rectangle isn't a square? Because it seems like if I have entangled particles, you say they occupy the same state as to not be able to pinpoint which individual atoms is which, which is also how superfluids are describe.

Could this same phenomena happen in degenerate matter due to proximity?

Edited March 23, 2012 by questionposter

[swansont]

So is superfluidity existing as entangled particles and more?

 

No. I have said, repeatedly, that this is NOT entanglement.

[questionposter]

No. I have said, repeatedly, that this is NOT entanglement.

 

But you still haven't explained what exactly is different about entanglement and the state that the atoms in liquid helium are in. In both instances, the particles act as one particle, so...

[swansont]

But you still haven't explained what exactly is different about entanglement and the state that the atoms in liquid helium are in.

 

I'll say it a third time: Entanglement is a superposition that can't be decomposed into individual states, since these states are undetermined until measured.

 

BEC and superfluid are ground states and they are not undetermined. There is no superposition of states.

[questionposter]

I'll say it a third time: Entanglement is a superposition that can't be decomposed into individual states, since these states are undetermined until measured.

 

BEC and superfluid are ground states and they are not undetermined. There is no superposition of states.

 

So could you say super-fluid has properties "like" or "as" entanglement? Because it seems like if all the atoms are as one particle, couldn't you not determine that any individual atom is at the ground state?

[swansont]

So could you say super-fluid has properties "like" or "as" entanglement? Because it seems like if all the atoms are as one particle, couldn't you not determine that any individual atom is at the ground state?

 

They're all in the ground state.