Transgendered Persons

[zapatos]

Vengeful impulses put people into risky situations for no good reason. At best, it could be fun.

'Good reason' is in the eye of the beholder. Some things are worth taking a risk for.

[MonDie]

'Good reason' is in the eye of the beholder. Some things are worth taking a risk for.

...although good reasoning would not allow us to act on our impulses irresponsibly.

Edited March 23, 2012 by Mondays Assignment: Die

[Keenidiot]

...although good reasoning would not allow us to act on our impulses irresponsibly.

 

A devout Christian, Jew, or Muslim, would have good reasoning to attack or otherwise oppress homosexuals.

[Green Xenon]

It's important to understand that:

 

1. There is more to gender than simply "male" or "female" -- [for example I don't feel like I'm male or female]. There are hermaphrodites, non-gendered persons [like me], intersexed, etc.

 

2. Genitalia does not determine gender [i maybe male "down there", but my gender is something other than male, female, or anything in between].

 

3. Gender-identity does not determine sexual-orientation [my lack of masculine features does not make me attracted to men].

 

There are so many idiots who believe the myth that male-to-female transgender-women are sexually-interested in men. This is so wrong.

[John Cuthber]

A devout Christian, Jew, or Muslim, would have good reasoning to attack or otherwise oppress homosexuals.

No they would not. "I read it in an old book" isn't a reason.

[Xittenn]

It's important to understand that:

 

1. There is more to gender than simply "male" or "female" -- [for example I don't feel like I'm male or female]. There are hermaphrodites, non-gendered persons [like me], intersexed, etc.

 

2. Genitalia does not determine gender [i maybe male "down there", but my gender is something other than male, female, or anything in between].

 

3. Gender-identity does not determine sexual-orientation [my lack of masculine features does not make me attracted to men].

 

There are so many idiots who believe the myth that male-to-female transgender-women are sexually-interested in men. This is so wrong.

 

 

I agree with everything up until your last statement. Although many MTF persons are attracted to women, despite their identity, which is quite non-conforming and quite alright as far as I'm concerned, I myself enjoy the company of men. As it stands I've had a lot of relationships with men but have never been in a meaningful relationship and this has left me feeling very depressed. I think this has a lot to do with how people make their judgements and I fear that this means that I will never find someone to share my life with.

 

This also means in my having made my own personal choices that I may have very well forfeit the deeper meaning that I truly desire. Some might say that I should have married a woman and have lived a normal life, but honestly I would have not been happy in that role and I would have felt--forgive the pun--castrated. Although, my inability to bare children kind of sort of makes me feel the same way anyway. Sometimes--most of the time--I don't even feel human, like there is this boundary that keeps me in a pen separated from the herd.

 

When I was a child I was cast out to the island of me, and as an adult, well I was never really any good at making friends so this is nothing new. The real question is, is it me, is it my status, or is it maybe a combination of both. I'm sure I could be more relatable as a human being and this is not a gender issue, so maybe it is just me and I need to stop placing the blame on my issue . . . I don't know, if my stature wasn't so I might be a little more approachable. People say that I need to relax, but I want to be around people that are excited and open and always doing stuff . . . . which isn't really a gender issue.

[Green Xenon]

I agree with everything up until your last statement. Although many MTF persons are attracted to women, despite their identity, which is quite non-conforming and quite alright as far as I'm concerned, I myself enjoy the company of men. As it stands I've had a lot of relationships with men but have never been in a meaningful relationship and this has left me feeling very depressed. I think this has a lot to do with how people make their judgements and I fear that this means that I will never find someone to share my life with.

 

This also means in my having made my own personal choices that I may have very well forfeit the deeper meaning that I truly desire. Some might say that I should have married a woman and have lived a normal life, but honestly I would have not been happy in that role and I would have felt--forgive the pun--castrated. Although, my inability to bare children kind of sort of makes me feel the same way anyway. Sometimes--most of the time--I don't even feel human, like there is this boundary that keeps me in a pen separated from the herd.

 

When I was a child I was cast out to the island of me, and as an adult, well I was never really any good at making friends so this is nothing new. The real question is, is it me, is it my status, or is it maybe a combination of both. I'm sure I could be more relatable as a human being and this is not a gender issue, so maybe it is just me and I need to stop placing the blame on my issue . . . I don't know, if my stature wasn't so I might be a little more approachable. People say that I need to relax, but I want to be around people that are excited and open and always doing stuff . . . . which isn't really a gender issue.

 

1. Don't blame yourself. It's society's fault for making irrational gender codes, not yours. As the formerly-and-currently-evil society advances, it will start to be less evil and more accepting of MTF-transgendered-persons. If you think you have it bad, trying going back 30 years ago, it would be very difficult to survive. Also, western cultures seem to be far more accepting -- than non-western cultures -- of elements of MTF-transgendering, hermaphrodites, non-gendered persons, and "effeminate/unmasculine" persons not born with what evil-society considers a "purely-female crotch". For example, in India, survival for "hijras" and "kothis" [indian MTFs] is futile, as they are often raped, beaten, and killed by the cold-hearted macho men of evil-society.

 

2. Most MTFs don't want to be castrated and would like to be accepted as female regardless of the physical characteristics of their groins.

 

3. As I've said in my previous message in the thread, I am a non-gendered person trapped in a male body. Hence, I've had many difficulties placed on me by society forcing me to use "male only" facilities, such as that of public restrooms and dressing rooms.

 

4. Despite being a non-gendered person in a man's body, I'm sexually-attracted to women only. I have no sexual-interest in men.

 

5. Another point I will make is that "male" and "female" are not opposites as the evil-society-of-humans would like to believe. In addition, the terms "masculine" and "feminine" are not at all opposites of each other.

 

6. There is no such thing as "opposite gender" or "opposite sex". Those who chose to believe such are no better than the ancient backward 3rd-world monsters who get their jollies from oppressing innocent individuals who are unable to to conform to society's irrational gender stereotypes. I call these hate-mongering scoundrels "transphobes".

Edited March 28, 2012 by Green Xenon

[MonDie]

Not all cultures besides Western culture have negative attitudes toward homosexuality. It's something for the anthropologists to explain.

 

 

What is a meaningful relationship?

What does it look like? Maybe I've seen one before.

[Xittenn]

Yes, there are a lot of countries that are supportive of trans persons. When I had my surgery I met the sweetest young trans man from Australia. I hear in Brazil, and the Philippines trans persons are fairly well accepted. And obviously Thailand which is probably the most developed nation in terms of trans people, their rights and their rearing!

 

One where I know someone will be around to say hi to me regularly and give me a hug, maybe snuggle every now and again. I feel so alone all the time, it would be nice to have a companion.

[Appolinaria]

One where I know someone will be around to say hi to me regularly and give me a hug, maybe snuggle every now and again. I feel so alone all the time, it would be nice to have a companion.

 

Everyone feels like that :/

[ewmon]

I've wanted to post here for some time. I'd say that I have had a wider experience with other people's sexual identity than most people have had, and what people clump together as "LGBT" etc to me are very different. I've had gay roommates, I've been propositioned repeatedly, I've had gay and lesbian coworkers, I've had gay neighbors, and I even have an FTM transgender cousin.

 

To me, gay men who act like a woman ("swishers" or "flamers" -- pardon me if these are derogatory words to you) are very different from those who don't make a pretense, both of which are very different from MTF transgender people. For example, you can't tell me that such pretenses are "natural" because I saw a swishing/cross-dressing neighbor downshift into his regular voice when he thought no one was around. I had another swishing gay neighbor who swore up and down that he was allergic to anything with eggs (whites and/or yolks) in it (it makes him vomit), and that he loves mayonnaise of any type -- natural or artificial. Of course, eggs come from a female animal and mayonnaise resembles semen from males (even though it's mostly egg). To me, the pretenses are all artificial.

 

To me, even straight people who use sex "toys" are different to than straight people who don't.

 

In general, modern society accepts women behaving as men much more than men behaving as women. Women wearing pants, women supporting themselves, women dancing with women, women calling each other girlfriends, women giving each other hugs and kisses, etc.

 

Among transgender people, FTM men (at least my cousin's type, which I'll explain) seem different to me than MTF women. A woman can show physical reasons for their choice to choose being transgender (at least my cousin's type can). My female cousin seemed straight up through her 30's, including being married very briefly and divorced. I'd look at her, her low manly voice, her manly build/musculature, and her facial hair, and I think that, for the nicest women you could ever meet, she just didn't present as a woman. We didn't see her for years, and then she wrote to us about her life. She said she had always had a secret gender confusion, yet she persevered as a girl/woman. She married a guy as a virgin, but physically couldn't have sex due to lack of lubrication. It turns out that she had never had a period, which she kept from her mother and her doctor, and she later found out that she had never ovulated and could not produce children even if she had sex. Her breasts were small hardened masses that would never produce milk. Her facial hair, manly build and low manly voice were obvious. She choose gender reassignment, had her "breasts" removed and took male hormones to complete the effect, except for the genitals. If you didn't see him naked, you'd never know. I was actually relieved, although somewhat shocked, after reading the letter. I could accept her as a man; it seemed natural.

 

So, where am I in this thread? I thank you Xittenn for your openness. I think you are in the group of people who face the greatest difficulties in the broad LGBT grouping and in finding social acceptance with your decision. I elaborated about my cousin, thinking how little scientific evidence MTF people seem to have to back up their decision for gender reassignment. I appreciate your troubles, and I condemn the violence perpetrated on you. I accept you as a person, as I do all people. Please stay with us.

[Xittenn]

You are one of the few who I've always wondered where you stood. I don't get too many direct replies to my threads or posts and I often wonder why this is. Sometimes, but very rarely, I wonder if it is because I'm TG. Most of the time I suspect it is because my level of professionalism is at a level much lower than most. Honestly, I would say I would never leave but that would be a lie. I'm here mainly to be around people that might help me improve myself as a professional scientist. That said, I am a very slow person with a lot of barriers to a lot of very big dreams. I am also a very emotional person and I can feel emotional pain so bad so often. People in this thread have been very welcoming as you just have been and I appreciate this so much because it alleviates my mind of these external questions. So I think I should be just as forthcoming and state that, if I leave again rest assured it wasn't because the people here weren't nice people in my mind. If I do leave again, which I've done before, it's because I somehow failed myself (i.e. if I don't make it past the university level) and I am no longer able to face this part of me--this is a very real probability 60/40 split in favour of my success.

[MonDie]

Xittenn, your post on my thread was very easy to understand. I don't know why you said you should let someone else explain it or "make notes for [me]."

I don't know what is holding you back from having relationships. Now, don't take this next part the wrong way. I don't know you at all, but I think if you were my age, you would be the type of woman I'm attracted to. There's probably a lot of scientist guys who desire smart women with similar interests who appreciate what they do. That really is what turns me on, personally. Your status might just make them more restrained in your presence.

 

Friendly Smile

Edited April 2, 2012 by Mondays Assignment: Die

[Xittenn]

Stylin'

[Genecks]

Xittenn, I think you're a decent person. So, I thought I would get that out of the way before saying the other stuff.

 

Anyway, as I've had this argument with people on this website before... I think that people who have a mentality that is not in line with their biological function are mentally ill. And... maybe they don't feel that way... and maybe people don't think it's a form of crazy... but I think it's a form of a person going against their biological design, and perhaps their environment changing their identity and personality... but then again... there's all these neurochemicals, hormones, etc.. that are different in people... as such, it could just be the situation that the epigenetics of particular individuals is different, thus that would explain why they think and feel differently than others...

 

So, perhaps it's not that they are mentally ill, but their biological design is not to reproduce... which say some pretty odd things in terms of human evolution... perhaps their goal is to be like... like contributors to society... to be worker ants who die out... And it may be some kind of social evolution that's occurring with these individuals.

 

I think that either people are of a design that was meant to contribute to the reproduction of particular genetic identities and makeups (social evolution) or else the individual is of a flawed design and a mistake (because the property of biological reproduction/duplication is missing).

 

Could be mutation... Could be that eventually homosexuals will be able to reproduce with each other given a few thousand years... Again, evolution.

 

Debatable, but I tend not to mind what other people do with their lives and sexuality as long as they don't try to rule mine, manipulate me, and push their beliefs on me. People can be jerks, but I think most people who are jerks are ignorant and have a lot of cowardice and insecurities. And learning to accept people regardless and work out issues is most important. I really don't like uppity LGBT people, though. Not like I go around saying straight pride.

Edited April 3, 2012 by Genecks

[Xittenn]

I have to agree about the uppity bit, I'm not too fond of it either. But at the same time I think pride parades have more to do with how LGBT people face persecution in many countries and our need to maintain a level of public awareness at this time. There are places in the world that have gone so far as to make laws against LGBT persons of which an infraction is punishable by death. Straight people don't see such persecution.

 

About having babies, it is not in my nature to not wish to have babies. As I've stated before I want to have babies and I am seeking to eventually either adopt, or if the medicine is there at the right time I would like to have a uterine transplant. We have discussed this in a previous thread in which you participated.

 

As for the mental illness, I have an opinion along these lines that many would also find to be an extreme perspective. From my point of view anyone who would want to remain as limited as a human must be mentally ill. Anyone who feels that they should be restricted to their biological processes is missing one fundamental aspect about evolution and that is evolution means we change for the better.

 

I'm sorry that you take on the position that you do. I'm glad that we are clear on who I am now, as I was sure that this was not entirely an issue you would be understanding of--I haven't read your prior posts on the matter. I am a bit offended--honestly terribly offended--at the insinuation that I am simply gay. This assumption barricades me from my life and opinions like these are what leads people like me to be isolated from society. I can only say thank the sun that brings me warmth I am not subject to your authority! <== this last bit means I get to live freely as I am and not as someone else wants me to be . . .

 

The mental illness part was to make you feel better, agree to disagree and all i.e. don't feel bad I am just a judgemental . . . . .

[MonDie]

So, perhaps it's not that they are mentally ill, but their biological design is not to reproduce... which say some pretty odd things in terms of human evolution... perhaps their goal is to be like... like contributors to society... to be worker ants who die out... And it may be some kind of social evolution that's occurring with these individuals.

Group Selection

 

Sex-Biased Genes

http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn6519-survival-of-genetic-homosexual-traits-explained.html

 

but I think it's a form of a person going against their biological design

Implying the assumption that a person's mind is not determined by their biological design.

 

Could be mutation... Could be that eventually homosexuals will be able to reproduce with each other given a few thousand years... Again, evolution.

Or in a few decades through genetic engineering, although that would probably only be an option for lesbians, and they would only be able to produce baby girls unless a third person donated a Y chromosome. But men wouldn't be necessary anymore if women could produce with each other. Ouch, I hope nobody decides to kill us off.

Edited April 3, 2012 by Mondays Assignment: Die

[Anders Hoveland]

I do not understand. Why can you not just be happy with who you are?

 

If you like to wear boy clothes and do male types of things, why can you not do that as a woman?

 

Why did you feel a need to alter your natural body?

 

 

Wait, you said

I am a genetic XY and have undergone Gender Reassignment Surgery

and

When I was younger boys used to beat the hell out of me because they saw me as a gay who needed to be taught a lesson. I had developed breasts which I had had removed at the age of sixteen even despite my internalized self image issues.

 

Where you born physically male or female? I am confused.

And are you attracted to other males or females?

Edited April 3, 2012 by Anders Hoveland

[Xittenn]

I do not understand. Why can you not just be happy with who you are?

 

If you like to wear boy clothes and do male types of things, why can you not do that as a woman?

 

Why did you feel a need to alter your natural body?

 

 

Wait, you said

 

and

 

 

Where you born physically male or female? I am confused.

And are you attracted to other males or females?

 

 

I'm sorry that you are confused, I suggest to you to read the thread in full as I am not one to repeat myself--especially in what is for me a very frustrating topic of conversation.

 

 

Simply put I have done nothing wrong and am not required to justify my actions! This is quite in contrast to the individuals whom I am requesting their justifications for their actions from. It is not ok to beat up someone for being different, and it is equally not ok to mentally abuse these people as well. It is not ok to deprive people on the basis of who they are of life and stability--criminals withstanding. It is ok to have an opinion, it is not ok to make your opinion an attack on an individual. People very often do not understand how to appropriate themselves under this last point, something I often attribute to a lack in cognitive capability.

 

Many suggest me to either ignore or defend. It's hard to ignore when a group of people are commenting about you two feet in front of your face. If I were to defend myself these people would find my mechanisms lack a certain refine and take on a far more blunt disdain for life and opposition.

[Arete]

Why did you feel a need to alter your natural body?

 

Seems fairly straightforward to me - if someone identifies as belonging to the opposite gender to the one they were born as, one might feel out of place in their own body. Reassignment medication and surgery might be extremely important in generating an identity, self esteem and self worth to an individual in such a position.

 

If someone is not asking you to sleep with them, does it matter what gender they identify as or what gender they were born as?

[zapatos]

I do not understand. Why can you not just be happy with who you are?

This question could be asked of much of the population of the world. I think it is rather naive to believe that anyone who feels they have problems could somehow "just be happy" with whatever their situation is, siimply by having a happy thought.

 

"I'm in prison, my kids hate me, I have nothing to look forward to. But what the heck, I'm just going to go ahead and be happy!"

"I'm stuck in traffic, will miss my flight, and have to sleep in the airport tonight. But what the heck, I'm just going to go ahead and be happy!"

 

It just doesn't work that way.

Often times the solution is to change your situation.

 

"I have no education and no job prospects. But rather than just try to be happy with my situation, I'm going to enroll in school and try to change things."

Edited April 3, 2012 by zapatos

[Appolinaria]

I think Hoveland's questions are completely innocent.

 

 

Many people go day to day without living in a body they feel matches what's inside. Take any old person. Or any person, really. I don't like certain things about body, and I don't think they portray what I am inside. But I learn to live with it.

[zapatos]

I think Hoveland's questions are completely innocent.

I think you misinterpreted the replies.

[immortal]

I think we all need to see this thread from the perspective of a phenomenological psychologist as to how important our body projects and identities are for ourselves and in relation with others and how complex such a body-world relationship can get.

 

The body: A phenomenological psychological perspective

[Xittenn]

But I learn to live with it.

 

And I didn't, I tried, failed, and moved on.

 

--I appreciate the naive position Appolinaria and forgive me--

 

I've completed my transition for the most part and I'm not sure why some feel I am required to be scrutinized for it. I haven't harmed myself in the process, I am perfectly healthy. The chances of things going wrong these days under proper medical attention is low. It makes me happy. I'm sorry if others feel that my adaptation to my situation is a problem for them, but that is too bad. I don't hurt other people, what gives other people the right to hurt me? I'm sorry if you feel a certain way about the situation, but you have every right to not do what I've done to myself to yourself.

 

I don't mind when people say hey I think people should not do that, I accept such advise and take it into consideration . . . .

 

I hide these statements because they are illogical and emotionally filled. I post them as hidden because they do not represent what I think of as appropriate statements for me to be saying to a general public. These are the sentiments that I maintain inside--this is how I feel when people make the statements that affect my life directly and whose consequences to me have deep emotional impact. Obviously this is ranting and borderline psychotic, but if I was left without a choice I think this is what I would become.

 

 

 

I do mind when people say that if they had it their way that I would not be allowed to do or be who I am. People insisting on taking away my freedom to choose for myself is for me the equivalent of disseminating me out from society. If policies ever do change I will not sit by idly, I will protest with such rage the world will never know, because it is me, it is my choice, it is who I am, and it is no ones else damn business. Stop trying to make everyone else what you are because we are not all alike and we all have reason for what we do. If my rights are revoked I best be put down like a rabid dog because the corpse left behind will be nothing more then canines gnashing forward ready to tare at the people who spit in my face. If I am a cancer on society you best remove me like a tumor or watch as I spread like a seething oozing mass.

 

 

 

I tried to hold back as much as possible. My psychiatrist tries to get stuff out of me, but if half the thoughts that go through my head were to ever come out I would probably be under observation or sedated for an extended period of time .. . which happened once already. I want to be a healthy part of a free society that helps each other to grow and looks to see that each of its members are represented with equality. I know the worlds not perfect but there are very simple things that many overlook because they lack a certain consideration for the existence of others. I can only hope that people will continue to grow as they have. My biggest fear right now is that with the state of affairs and the current global tension we might see opinions being reverted to an earlier time and my rights given to me taken away. Some might say my freedom is in a way artistic and I can concede to this. Take my freedom to be artistic away and I am nothing more than a pseudo random walk, disconnected, and and a pit of emotional despair. I can not give anyone a good and logical reason for this!

 

I should probably point out that since my transition I have become much more relaxed and emotionally stable. I tend to only flare when I think about the 'what ifs.'