Transgendered Persons

[MonDie]

"I'm stuck in traffic, will miss my flight, and have to sleep in the airport tonight.

reads like a poem

Edited April 4, 2012 by Mondays Assignment: Die

[zapatos]

reads like a poem

Har!

I'm a poet and I didn't even know it.

[Genecks]

Group Selection

 

Sex-Biased Genes

http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn6519-survival-of-genetic-homosexual-traits-explained.html

 

 

Implying the assumption that a person's mind is not determined by their biological design.

 

 

Or in a few decades through genetic engineering, although that would probably only be an option for lesbians, and they would only be able to produce baby girls unless a third person donated a Y chromosome. But men wouldn't be necessary anymore if women could produce with each other. Ouch, I hope nobody decides to kill us off.

 

I see what you're on about, Monday. But I think for the most part the biological design is reproduction, and if the person does not think accordingly with that design, then the person is mentally ill. But this comes with the grand assumption that biological design is reproduction. It's extremely wasteful to generate a human being without reproductive capability and desire unless there is some biological aspect to that person that helps them support DNA's reproduction and existence (thus, social evolution).

[zapatos]

I see what you're on about, Monday. But I think for the most part the biological design is reproduction, and if the person does not think accordingly with that design, then the person is mentally ill. But this comes with the grand assumption that biological design is reproduction. It's extremely wasteful to generate a human being without reproductive capability and desire unless there is some biological aspect to that person that helps them support DNA's reproduction and existence (thus, social evolution).

So the body does not match the mind. On what basis have you determined that the mind is at fault and not the body?

 

If a person has decided that while capable of reproducing, they choose not to, are they also mentally ill?

Edited April 4, 2012 by zapatos

[Genecks]

So the body does not match the mind. On what basis have you determined that the mind is at fault and not the body?

 

If a person has decided that while capable of reproducing, they choose not to, are they also mentally ill?

 

Well, I would like to exclude the view of the mind and stay with the brain and body, to move toward a biological view and exclude the concept of mind in this argument. It's the brain and body during its development that is suppose to program the individual to reproduce and cause genetic diversity so that DNA is allowed to continue existing. DNA has its own agenda, and that agenda is to reproduce and sustain itself in the world. And for that to happen people have to reproduce. And if they choose not to reproduce, then the choice (at least what claims to be an outward expression of rebellion against genetic design to reproduce) is illogical and against design, thus wrong, thus the individual is mentally ill. Now, I'm not saying the people are schizophrenic or going to ask you for a dollar on the street, but it's a subtle form of mental illness, or better yet, mental illogicalness.

 

Schizophrenia, alzheimer's, etc... deal with epigenetics.. And I suspect the homosexuality aspect also deals with epigenetics.. and one might say it has an early-onset in individuals where their epigenetic makeup changes away from intended biological reproduction aspects. And, I remember someone once asked me if that means I thought nuns and priests are mentally ill, too, given that they're having outward expressions and thinking patterns of non-reproductive personalities. Then, I'm going to have to say yes.

 

Me? Personally? I could care less, because it's so subtle and that everyone has their own quirks, it's what makes us human. I'm saying what I think from a scientific perspective, and not some moral right-wing junk.

 

Yeah, this relates to a thread I made long ago where I attempted to explore why the American Psychiatric Association long ago considered homosexuality to be a mental illness. On a level where people just consider a person's line of thinking and little else, the claim is preposterous. But given assumptions about biological design and function, it sounds reasonable. But the hard look into genetics and epigenetics and molecular biology of it all definitely wasn't around too much when the APA was making those claims.

 

Now, in reference to the transgender thing... I had this professor who.. just would go about animals and their sexuality. Some fish change their sex... So, if the male in the area died, one female fish would turn into a male, and that fish would start reproducing with the other female fish. Again, that there is epigenetics and biological design. It could be the situation that people aren't mentally ill but their biological design is of a mutation in the population pool.... So in terms of a male who feels the desire the be a female, they lack the ability to physically change sex... perhaps some environmental stimulus that changed the brain and its patterns of reproduction influenced the individual to desire to be of a different gender..

 

As the options I gave out, it could be evolution or a mishap against biological design. Again, though, since it's not practical for a human to change gender like a fish, it's going against biological design. Maybe all of this is just a bunch of genetic remnants in people from early evolutionary history, whereby the genes for changing sex are still around in some homological form, and they affect behavioral patterns of individuals.

 

I think of the bisexuals and homosexuals i've met in life, I'd have to say that their views on why they are their particular sexuality was something that just occurred to them. And it's wasn't much of a conscious decision.

Edited April 5, 2012 by Genecks

[Superfusion]

Okay first Xittenn I do disagree with your decision. But i do not hate you, I will not treat you differently, And i am not out for an arguement. I believe that you should have the right to make your own decisions and do whatever you would like as long as it does not cause physical pain to another person. (Even though i do believe people should watch their actions because it can cause emotional pain or make them mentally ill if it really affects them in a negative way.) It is overall your choice and i have no problem with you having the ability to do so. I just do not agree with transgender behavior, Largely because it is against what i believe but the reason why i believe that is the long part. I am just another to let you know that you are socially exepted on my terms. I just hope you did not make the decision at an age so young.

[Xittenn]

I'm saying what I think from a scientific perspective, and not some moral right-wing junk.

 

What exactly is scientific about what you said? This sounds an awful lot like an appeal to authority, and does not aid you in forming a strong argument. I personally believe that there are two types of transgendered persons, those who have an illness, and those who for whatever reason seek to fulfill themselves and their own personal pleasure. I believe I have an illness because I sure as hell am not doing this for fun. I also believe that you haven't the foggiest and that you should do a solid study on the matter before making really awkward statements that bring your scientific perspective into question.

 

Okay first Xittenn I do disagree with your decision. But i do not hate you, I will not treat you differently, And i am not out for an arguement. I believe that you should have the right to make your own decisions and do whatever you would like as long as it does not cause physical pain to another person. (Even though i do believe people should watch their actions because it can cause emotional pain or make them mentally ill if it really affects them in a negative way.) It is overall your choice and i have no problem with you having the ability to do so. I just do not agree with transgender behavior, Largely because it is against what i believe but the reason why i believe that is the long part. I am just another to let you know that you are socially exepted on my terms. I just hope you did not make the decision at an age so young.

 

I appreciate your position and I can see why many would look poorly on my choices as a consequence of their particular beliefs. I imagine if I had the same beliefs I may have chosen differently. My christian family respects my choices as well, as I respect their choice in having beliefs. I would like to think that both parties can benefit from the experiences of the other, but in this case I have nothing to offer. I believe the lack of positive impact of my choices are a primary reason for some taking an offensive position to my actions. I apologize if my actions are not respectable to some, but I had to be myself, something I was taught to do from a young age.

 

@ Geneks . . . if you wish to add to a post you made 20 minutes ago, you might just add a separate post!

Edited April 5, 2012 by Xittenn

[zapatos]

Well, I would like to exclude the view of the mind and stay with the brain and body, to move toward a biological view and exclude the concept of mind in this argument.

Ok, that is fine.

 

Getting back to my first question:

 

So the body does not match the brain regarding gender. On what basis have you determined that the brain is at fault and not the body? How have you determined that it is a mental illness and not a body illness?

 

In other words, from a scientific perspective, how did you determine that in a MTF transgender person, that the brain was wrong to think of itself as female? Couldn't the brain be correct in thinking of itself as female, but the body did not develop as expected? There are obviously many cases of bodies not developing to plan.

 

The reason I ask is because labelling someone as mentally ill without evidence would probably be considered reckless.

[StringJunky]

Genecks

 

What's the possibility of a transgendered person having the neural circuitry (brain) for the opposite sex that their body has?

 

http://sindromebenjamin.tripod.com/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderfiles/brainsex1.pdf

 

This idea correlates with Xitten's sense of being a woman trapped in a man's body.

 

I think authentic transsexualism is a neurobiological phenomenon and not a psychological one. I'm no expert on this stuff and therefore can't gauge the veracity of the study I linked to but it seems to have been done with some rigour.

 

I don't buy the concept of "design". Mutations just happen and they consequently fit the environment or they don't. Gender orientation, spanning masculinity to femininity, falls on a continuum across the human race because evolution is just a game of dice and all possibilities, for any given parameter, will be expressed, at any given time, to varying degrees of occurrence between them.

 

Consistent with this, to my mind, any given person has a certain ratio of 'maleness' and 'femaleness'; very rarely is a person 100% one or the other. Xitten happens to lie on that point where neurobiologically her brain and and body are polarised with respect to gender, hence, the psychological conflict she experiences

 

Gender identity is a function of the brain, not the body, since the sense of 'self' originates within the brain, therefore, the body needs to be re-aligned not the other way round. This view assumes the transgendered individual was this way genetically and not a consequence of some environmentally-caused trauma...in the second case it would be a malfunction obviously.

[Xittenn]

The body: A phenomenological psychological perspective

 

 

http://sindromebenjamin.tripod.com/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderfiles/brainsex1.pdf

 

If anyone has anymore I would love to read them.

[StringJunky]

If anyone has anymore I would love to read them.

 

https://www.google.co.uk/#hl=en&sclient=psy-ab&q=trans+sexuals+brain+studies&oq=trans+sexuals+brain+studies&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&gs_l=hp.12...2930l20337l0l22522l27l25l0l2l2l0l622l5635l0j11j10j2j0j1l27l0.frgbld.&pbx=1&fp=1&biw=1366&bih=643&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_qf.,cf.osb&cad=b

[Xittenn]

I mean specific ones that the individual feels are important. Stuff that stands out.

 

I had my surgery at G.R.S. Montreal and if you are able to access the site from outside of the country the outlines of both MTF and FTM surgeries performed are outlined. The information is presented on this site in a pretty clear and well layed out manner including the criterion necessary to be eligible.

 

Three Bridges Medical Health Center was where I began seeing my primary care professional. Their online resource center is part of their Transgendered Health Program. I had attended group meetings for two years while undergoing my transition. I haven't been back to the group sessions for about a year now as I haven't felt compelled to.

Edited April 5, 2012 by Xittenn

[Superfusion]

Ok, that is fine.

 

Getting back to my first question:

 

So the body does not match the brain regarding gender. On what basis have you determined that the brain is at fault and not the body? How have you determined that it is a mental illness and not a body illness?

 

In other words, from a scientific perspective, how did you determine that in a MTF transgender person, that the brain was wrong to think of itself as female? Couldn't the brain be correct in thinking of itself as female, but the body did not develop as expected? There are obviously many cases of bodies not developing to plan.

 

The reason I ask is because labelling someone as mentally ill without evidence would probably be considered reckless.

 

Whats strange is reguardless of the person wanting to be a man/woman the body still pumps testosterone/estrogen but it has pretty much no effect on their behavior. Perhaps the problem lies somewhere in there? Perhaps the body receives testosterone/estrogen impulses but the brain never does. Or the brain does but it ignores them. In which case the person makes the choice just based on what they see in the genders. Actually an interesting topic to try and dig into.

[Xittenn]

Whats strange is reguardless of the person wanting to be a man/woman the body still pumps testosterone/estrogen but it has pretty much no effect on their behavior. Perhaps the problem lies somewhere in there? Perhaps the body receives testosterone/estrogen impulses but the brain never does. Or the brain does but it ignores them. In which case the person makes the choice just based on what they see in the genders. Actually an interesting topic to try and dig into.

 

There is a lot of research into this and it is part of regular screening of gender dysphoric individuals.

[Xittenn]

It is? Nothing is found in the research? I believe in your case the testosterone is flowing to the brain but it persist? Perhaps its the latter and your brain simply does not react to the testosterone.

 

Humans are very sensitive and have very sensitive brains. Homosexuality is something i have never seen in other animals. I guess with the higher intelligence comes the bigger sensitivity.

 

 

My testosterone levels are currently on par with those of genetic women. Before my transition my testosterone levels were considered low by medical standards. My most immediate reference to research on this topic comes from my immediate care professionals as described to me during screening. I'll see what I can find later and will try to include works completed by my immediate primary care professionals. Where did you look?

 

Furthermore reproduction has a long history in terms of evolution. The make up of our genes essentially still contains all the information to code for things like asexual and dual sex behaviour. The fact that on a formal level there hasn't been a complete vaporization of such trends or a complete conforming of behaviour to the theoretically optimal set point doesn't make arguments against the behaviour relevant or, and including arguments that this is somehow new behaviour, valid. As Genecks has pointed out maybe humans are evolving to a different format, maybe hermaphroditism is making a comeback, who knows? The mechanics of these conjectures are highly complicated and somewhat beyond definitive science of today.

[hypervalent_iodine]

!

Moderator Note

I've removed the posts related to homosexuality in other animals. Please try keep the discussion, which has been a pretty interesting read thus far, on topic.

[Xittenn]

The following is a paper that goes over CAH, CAIS, and 5a-RD-2 and the effects on gender identity FTM/HTM persons.

 

P.T. Cohen-Kettenis, "Psychosocial and psychosexual aspects of disorders of sex development ." Best Practice & Research Clinical Endocrinology & Metabolism, Volume 24, Issue 2, April 2010, Pages 325-334, ISSN 1521-690X, 10.1016/j.beem.2009.11.005.

(http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1521690X09001468)

 

also available here

 

Bentz EK, Schneeberger C, Hefler LA, van Trotsenburg M, Kaufmann U, Huber JC, Tempfer CB. "A common polymorphism of the SRD5A2 gene and transsexualism." Reprod Sci. 14.7 (2007):705-9. Sage. Web. April 07 2012 http://rsx.sagepub.com/content/14/7/705.full.pdf+html

[Reliance_On_Science]

For whatever reason I am transgendered, I am of the opinion that I was in fact born this way

 

It is so nice to see people say this instead of it "being a choice" because there is scientific evidence that supports the idea that people can be born with a brain that "doesn't fit with their body". There is a very small area (I believe in or near the hypothalamus) called the BST nucleus. In females, this area is ~30% smaller than a male's. There have been findings during autopsies of some transexuals that show they have the "wrong" BST nucleus or studies that explain an increased/decreased amount of testosterone surges while in the womb, that can affect the person's sexual orientation. It really is quite fascinating, and again, it is nice to see people openly discussing it... Lots of respect sent your way!

 

 

[Zoria]

In light of my recent upset in a thread where I was referred to as a man I thought I might open a thread to maybe address my issues and get some feedback on my situation. This is something I might have tried to do before so if I have, well . . .

 

A little background, I am a transgendered woman. That is all . . .

 

hahaha no really little background. . . I've known I've had a sexual identity issue since I was young, the details of this are probably unnecessary here. I started seeing psychologists and psychiatrists when I was about twelve years old, but this was for general social problems one of which was my sexual identity issue. There is a lot of debate about whether this is a genetic issue or not. I had a great aunt who was actually a hermaphrodite and one of my father's sisters has Aspergers Syndrome as does my cousine. I am going to be screened for a learning disability and will further discuss my family history and this will include my being transgendered.

 

For whatever reason I am transgendered, I am of the opinion that I was in fact born this way and there is very little that I could have ever done about it. When I was younger boys used to beat the hell out of me because they saw me as a gay who needed to be taught a lesson. I had developed breasts which I had had removed at the age of sixteen even despite my internalized self image issues. Honestly I had wanted to hide it from everybody because being different meant that people would beat me up, humiliate me, and impose on me a life that I would never understand. Although I had a lot of friends in my high school years I kept my issues to myself, I was afraid and alone. My friends knew I had interests in boys but at the same time any mention of this fact was so brief they may have never fully understood. When I began my transition at eighteen I had lost a lot of friends.

 

So I guess what I want to know is why my existence is so upsetting to people? I've seen very ugly threads on this forum about LGBT issues and I've tried to say my piece however unsuccessfully. I mean I'm just another human being with another stupid human problem what makes me so special? I always thought that maybe it was because of gender biases, that maybe the guys feel I'm not doing my duty. I tell you I've done some pretty tough jobs and I've always stood on my own two feet and supported myself. I mean if the issue is children, there are enough people in the world and not only that if I ever marry I will be the first to adopt and raise a child. I know I make comments of the sexual nature but I think that I take extra care to not make any of the male sex feel too uncomfortable in the lounge. So really what is it? I honestly might not like the ideas presented here but I want to hear them . . . if no one answers or the statements are too strong and I never come back well it happens.

This article is an inspiration to thousands of transgendered people in the world to face there lives courageously who is leaving a life in the dark. Many many thanks to you for sharing such a wonderful article. May you be always guided towards the light by your life and attain eternal peace.