Newby Q: Where to start with computer sicence and the internet?

[MonDie]

Computation is the set of rules, computing is the act of executing the rules and storing the information by means of any device. A device is a computer, a brain, a calendar . . . .

Okay, that input computed into a simple computation. All those words and phrases were interpreted unambiguously by my language.

 

Is it comparable to light refraction/reflection and the resulting image? This is what I mean: Light waves bouncing and eventually being interpreted as color is like computing, but the processes by which the light-waves bounced is like a computation. However, if no light shines on something, it is not part of the process (computation) even though it could have been if the lighting (input) was different.

In other words, you could look at computings done by a system, but you would not be able to replicate the underlying system unless you understood the computations guiding the computings.

 

If they're so related, why are there books on both subjects? Would a computing book involve doing the computing, and would a computation book involve setting up the rules to get a desired computation?

Edited April 8, 2012 by Mondays Assignment: Die

[Xittenn]

A computing book will discuss hardware solutions, of the digital variety in most cases. A book on computation will cover either logic and grammar, or algorithms. If this doesn't satisfy your question I'm probably not the right person to ask, my formal knowledge of the subject is limited, most of what I know comes from experience and not from education. You might want to try StackOverflow if no one here answers your question in a manner which satisfies your curiosity. At the same time you might want to move on, I think you are thinking too deeply on a rather simple topic and you would most benefit from involving yourself in related activities.

 

I'm sorry that I haven't been more helpful!

Edited April 8, 2012 by Xittenn

[MonDie]

Xittenn, that does answer my question. thank you

Is there any reason I shouldn't buy an older, early 2000's edition of Data Structures and Other Objects Using C++?

 

 

 

 

I just found this cheap, little book. I didn't even pay shipping.

How Computers Work: Processor And Main Memory by Roger Young

It has mixed reviews, but I would like to know what this science is all about, so I think I'll like it. After I get it and read it, I'll post a review of it on here or on amazon, whichever is more appropriate.

 

 

I can't believe that only now did I just notice I misspelled sicence. If any mods think this thread is worthy of appearance in the forum search, they can fix it.

Edited April 8, 2012 by Mondays Assignment: Die

[khaled]

So is computing a following of rules which guide the computation, whereas computation is the physical act ("work") done by computer hardware or brain cells?

 

1. I suggest you ignore what Xittenn wrote, since I don't find them coherent on your questions

.. her info is not wrong, but either incomplete or inconsistent

 

2. The answer on your question is Yes, but you have to vary between the computation on physical level, on machine level, and on different virtual levels

 

So you see for example a virtual turing machine that works on a computer with a windows xp OS, that's 6 levels of computation

 

Now you may ask "why different levels of computation", because as we mentioned earlier "computability of a program is related to a given machine"

 

So, there are programs that are computable on given level of computation but may not be computable on other levels

Edited April 8, 2012 by khaled

[Xittenn]

Programming: Principles and Practice Using C++ by Bjarne Stroustrup

 

 

For the not so sissy boys:

 

Logic and Computer Design Fundamentals by M. Morris Mano and Charles Kime

 

 

or a sissy book online:

 

How Computers Work Processor and Main Memory by Roger Young

[MonDie]

or a sissy book online:

 

How Computers Work Processor and Main Memory by Roger Young

 

What do you mean? I can still cancel the order if the book isn't right.

Edited April 8, 2012 by Mondays Assignment: Die

[Xittenn]

Well I just linked the authors link to his own book online, you can read it there or buy it if you wish. The book is very limited in its exposition and will only serve as a very brief introduction to the concept. It's like an extended Wikipedia article on the topic, but honestly wiki probably does a better job.

Edited April 8, 2012 by Xittenn

[MonDie]

I'll get these two, and I'll get Roger Young's book as a bonus in case I want an introduction to binary code. Nobody said it wasn't a good explanation, they just said it didn't teach them what they wanted to learn.

 

The Elements of Computing Systems: Building a Modern Computer From First Principles

 

Programming: Principles and Practice Using C++

 

I didn't order that first book sooner because a prerequisite is a programming language, but the second book should take care of that while giving me an understanding of programming.

Why have they not released a hard cover version of the latter book, it being so hefty?

All three books add up to less than $60. All are brand new since there were no cheaper used copies.

 

 

1. I suggest you ignore what Xittenn wrote, since I don't find them coherent on your questions

.. her info is not wrong, but either incomplete or inconsistent

Is she right about what topics would be covered by a book on computing versus a book on computation?

Edited April 8, 2012 by Mondays Assignment: Die

[Ben Banana]

You're still talking of terms beyond the idea of computation. Stop missing the point. Hint: The current subject is actually about the practice of computation, rather than the science. Fundamentally understanding the science is extremely important when regarding practice. Its a shame so many people consider the real science as mere theory, and since its "all been done" by you know, people like Alan Turing and John von Neumann, you have no more business to seriously think about it for yourself.

Edited April 8, 2012 by Ben Bowen

[MonDie]

the science [...] done" by you know, people like Alan Turing and John von Neumann

I don't know. Tell me more. I saw Khaled mention something called a "Turing machine" a while back.

[Xittenn]

'Turing Machines' are computing devices used to investigate the theory of computation.

Edited April 9, 2012 by Xittenn

[MonDie]

'Turing Machines' are computing devices used to investigate the theory of computation.

I like you, but I don't know what you're trying to accomplish.

[Xittenn]

I'm not trying to accomplish anything, you ask very broad questions and I give appropriate responses--at least from my perspective. I can graciously step out if you feel you understand khaled or Ben Bowen better. Enjoy!

[MonDie]

"Tell me more" is not a question, it's a command. Now tell me more! I am commanding you to talk to me about computer science so I can listen to what you have to say!

[Xittenn]

I think you are trying to start in a place that requires a bit more background knowledge before you tackle it. I can try to break the subject down a bit for you and this might help you ask more appropriate questions that address your learning needs and help you get to your points of interest. Just keep in mind what I have to say isn't the end all facts, and some of the information may be slightly dulled for appropriateness purposes.

 

The theoretical idea of computational devices--what we often term computers--were a novel idea in concept. The pursuit began as research into the developing of machines that could complete logical thinking tasks that were difficult for people to accomplish mentally and by hand. So, many people began to investigate how to accomplish the task of creating such a machine. Early examples of computing devices were, as I mentioned before, calendars and other equipment for navigation and so on. Math over the centuries became increasingly more complex and the ability for people to solve problems quickly and accurately became ever more the challenge. And so clocks were invented to tell time, in such a way that the result was accurate and independent of the sun.

 

I propose the clock to you because it demonstrates the concept of an analogue device which performs simple mathematical relations. I propose also that the clock is a superior example of early computing devices, as at the time of the dawn of computers physics was performed on continuous manifolds. To early mathematicians I imagine that it only made an extravagant sense that thinking machines perform logic over a continuous domain. And so we see early thinking machines being developed as mechanical sets made of gears that perform variations of differential calculus, counting, and other such tasks. Now, this isn't to say that early thinkers weren't aware of discrete devices, as there had already been in existence numerous examples i.e. the abacus.

 

Forgive my being overly and underlie thorough at the same time, I'm just trying to generalize the progression to help idealize some of the issues at hand. And moving forward we interject, the concept of language and grammar. I honestly haven't the foggiest what Ada Lovelace wrote as the world saw its first computer language being developed, but I do know that Babbage's Analytical Engine took a series of states and through a differential process that involved loops and conditions was able to complete mathematical calculation, at least in theory as the machine was never fully realized. Some one-hundred years later the computer emerged and early computers were also differential machines and they worked through the use of vacuum tubes. One man Alan Turing did much of the work on formalizing the approach to language and grammar, and he defined the state machine and some properties of thinking machines that determined computability and which is known as Turing Completeness.

 

As computers progress we see the advent of the digital computer and the move to binary logic or discrete mathematics. This was important as it marked a large step in bringing to the world a machine that could accurately reproduce in a fast and efficient method, and which also represented advancement in efficiency between the computing device and the language itself. You see, during the early twentieth century many psychologists got together and formed what is termed today as first order logic. This logic served as the grounds for the development of mathematics with respect to its most fundamental concepts. If A is onto B what B is onto C and so on . . . . Discrete mathematics emerged as a subset of this logic. One and One is One, Zero and One is Zero and so on . . . Now if you take these very basic statements you can arrange them in a hierarchy of levels that eventually see rise to a top level that is legible to people, some call this C++, others call it Fortran, and yet others call it Java. In all we call these mid and high level languages.

 

Machines that you see today, as they have since their advent, take in inputs, and through a series of controlled steps whose sum we call an algorithm, produce an output. What we call computation is what is accomplished by algorithms. Computability is the term to denote the ability for a computing device to accomplish an algorithm. These algorithms are built on the mathematics of logic, and are described in literature that deals with logic, paper machines, state machines, turing machines, and automata. Sir, there is a lot to learn and I'm sure if you dedicate some of your time to the subject you will see the many complexities that are involved in this wonderfully detailed science that will present to you a depth of knowledge I imagine you have never before conceived of!

[khaled]

The second book Xittenn recommended "Logic and Computer Design Fundamentals by M. Morris Mano and Charles Kime" can help

 

To understand what I was talking about, you can read more on Computability Theory: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Computability_theory

 

but it might confuse you, when it says that it's also known as "recursion theory", it also mention "degrees of computability"

 

It can be simplified to this analogy:

 

.. "Let's say that there is a problem that is computable to a machine 1 but not to machine 2 .. Just like how there is a weight that can be lifted by a man 1 but not by man 2"

 

I don't have anything against anyone, I just want you to know that there is difference between knowing everything in Theoretical Computer Science, and understanding it actually

 

Now if someone write right things, in irrelative way .. you can't say that what he said is wrong, but there is something wrong .. that's how Xittenn was on this issue

 

.. peace and love

[MonDie]

I just ordered that book too. Fortunately, it's in hardcover, so I didn't opt to pay more to get it in better condition.

 

Thank you both for the information. I'll see what I can learn over the summer. For now, I've got schoolwork to keep up with. I will think of responses to make in the future. I'll even write them into my reminders.

 

I'm still not used to being called "sir" all the time. It ruined my fun.

Edited April 10, 2012 by Mondays Assignment: Die

[eastken]

I do thank everyone for all the excellent posts so far.

 

 

I looked at a library's book on C++, since I might prefer a lower level language.

 

I use Linux, which is written in C and Assembly. I think I just read that C++ doesn't build on top of C, although it can be converted to C by compilers. I was wondering what this would mean for me if I decide to use C++ to make a program which I want to run on Linux.

 

Concerning my interest in how information is transferred through the Internet, I don't want to focus on my own operating system because I want to understand how this whole systems involves average people and our society in general.

 

 

 

help.ubuntu.com

https://help.ubuntu....-essential.html

 

I hope that is the correct way to give the URI. I wanted to give the URN too, but I couldn't find a serial number, and I wasn't sure if ubuntu.com would be considered an electronic periodical publication (which would have an ISSN).

http://creativecommo...a/3.0/legalcode

Did you find the ISSN of that book?