Will rioting develop in Stockton FL???

[charles brough]

Due to the nature of Florida law, it appears that the judicial system has to prove that the vigelante who shot the Afro-American youth did not kill in self-defense and/or that killing was a hate crime. If it does not succeed in either, he would have to be acquitted. That

could lead to race riots.

 

I lived in Los Angeles through two such riots. In the Rodney King riot, it started when a group of police beating down Rodney to the ground. A tape of it was shown and it did look brutal. However, it was never made clear that Rodney was a huge and powerful individual and on some sort of a powerful and illegal stimulant.

[JustinW]

I must have missed it. What were the circumstances around the shooting? And what was this vigilante being vigilant about?

[imatfaal]

Due to the nature of Florida law, it appears that the judicial system has to prove that the vigelante who shot the Afro-American youth did not kill in self-defense and/or that killing was a hate crime. If it does not succeed in either, he would have to be acquitted. That

could lead to race riots.

 

I lived in Los Angeles through two such riots. In the Rodney King riot, it started when a group of police beating down Rodney to the ground. A tape of it was shown and it did look brutal. However, it was never made clear that Rodney was a huge and powerful individual and on some sort of a powerful and illegal stimulant.

 

The reason it was "never made clear" was that he wasn't on an illegal stimulant and this was well known. Facts tend to get lost and the truth elided when the police are accused of crimes. Rodney King was not on PCP - he had traces of booze and dope. He weighed 225 pounds - which is pretty hefty - but not the 300 that many media sources used.

 

 

 

The Rodney King police beating case in Los Angeles was a source of much controversy and outrage, as well as urban legends. Because King resisted arrest, with several officers needed to subdue him, he was assumed to be on PCP at the time since the drug is notorious for inciting violent and unpredictable behavior coupled with an inability to feel pain (often misinterpreted as "superhuman" strength). However, toxicology results show that the only drugs found in his system were alcohol and traces of marijuana.^[/url]

 

 

Prosecution Rests Case in Rodney King Beating Trial

Report of the independent commission pages 6 and 8 (32 and 34 of the pdf)

 

 

[ewmon]

Perhaps enough time has elapsed since the killing that people will not riot.

 

I think that the most reasonable concern here isn't necessarily that a killer/murderer is "getting away", but that the authorities did not process this situation properly and allow a court of law to decide the matter. The authorities basically acted as prosecutor, judge and jury and found the shooter not guilty beyond a reasonable doubt. The amount and completeness of evidence provided to the public in police investigations is much smaller than in a criminal trial. The procedures are not well known, so who knows if they followed procedures properly. One of the purposes of a public trial is to inform the public of an incident, and for potential witnesses to come forward and possible evidence revealed. Contrary to a criminal trial, the public has no/little opportunity to provide input, either in the form of evidence or testimony or in adjudicating the facts (sitting on the jury). And so, the "verdict" can appear very, very shady ... as it does here. The decision by the authorities may very well be right, but they aren't giving the public the satisfaction or assurance over this homicide. There's also the appearance that the police effectively treated it as an internal affair, treating Zimmerman as a police officer.

 

To me, George Zimmerman made several mistakes.

• Zimmerman choose to carry a weapon while volunteering.
  
• Zimmerman choose to follow/stalk Martin while volunteering.
  
• If Martin asked Zimmerman if he had a "problem" (concern), I think he had a duty to say that he was a Neighborhood Watch volunteer and wanted to know what Martin was doing. The whole thing could have been defused then and there. Zimmerman followed/stalked Martin, and then gave no explanation why. To a third person on the scene, Zimmerman's stalking of Martin and then claiming he had no concern would seem bogus, as it apparently did to Martin.
  

The appearances would have looked even worse if Zimmerman had been following a teenage girl whom he thought had, for example, shoplifted something. What if she decided to pepper spray Zimmerman, and he pulled his gun and shot her dead? Pretty much the same thing.

 

The Neighborhood Watch program is responsible for not promoting vigilantism beyond a don't-ask-don't-tell attitude about whether volunteers should(n't) follow/stalk people or carry weapons.

 

I think there's apparently conflicting activities here.

• Zimmerman acted a Neighborhood Watch volunteer but did not state that fact.
  
• Zimmerman said Martin was acting suspicious, but he apparently was not.
  
• Zimmerman is not a police officer, but he seems to be treated as one.
  

[john5746]

I'm not a fan of Al Sharpton - I generally don't like him bringing so much pressure to bear on little towns. It has the danger of resulting in mob rule. But, in this case, something had to be done.

 

I'm not clear on all of the details, but it is clear that the cops told him to not pursue and he did. Once he decided to pursue, unless this guy just killed or seriously injured someone, I think he is at least responsible for manslaughter.

[ewmon]

Yes, at least manslaughter, although the shooter provoked the situation.

 

Zimmerman effectively stalked Martin (in Martin's eyes and those of potential bystanders) by not revealing his involvement with Neighborhood Watch. When Martin confronted him, Zimmerman did not reveal his involvement with Neighborhood Watch and probably did not "back down" or walk away, seeing as he had a gun and still considered Martin as "suspicious". And then, when it was Martin (!) who seemed to invoke the Stand Your Ground statute, Martin reacted wrongly.

 

So here you have it. Two people under a gross misinterpretation by one, both apparently invoking the Stand Your Ground statute, and the situation degenerated into two gunslingers in Dodge City, except that one of them never had a gun.

 

Conclusion: It's a bad law.

[JustinW]

I think, after catching up on the incident, that there are some misconceptions here. From what I understand there was a couple of eye witnesses that saw Martin on top of Zimmerman, the ambulance treated zimmerman for superficial wounds on the scene, and people are creating scenarios based on suppositions and assumptions. The police treat people a certain way due to what they find at the scene. If the situation looked to be what Zimmerman stated it was, then why would the police treat it differently? Not to mention these witnesses must have coroborated the state of the situation or else the police would have acted differently in my view.

 

What I don't get is why people automatically make these types of situations race related. They do so before they even know the facts. I don't know all of the facts but only have my feeling of the situation by relating the attitude of those who took control of the scene with the little I do know. Which in no way insinuated a hate crime. Racial profiling maybe. But then there is more I could say about that which might get misconstrude. The fact of the matter is that this guy has already been found guilty by activist groups everywhere. Why? Just because the victim was black and the perp was white? It doesn't make sense when considering the actions of those at the scene.

[charles brough]

Yes, at least manslaughter, although the shooter provoked the situation.

 

Zimmerman effectively stalked Martin (in Martin's eyes and those of potential bystanders) by not revealing his involvement with Neighborhood Watch. When Martin confronted him, Zimmerman did not reveal his involvement with Neighborhood Watch and probably did not "back down" or walk away, seeing as he had a gun and still considered Martin as "suspicious". And then, when it was Martin (!) who seemed to invoke the Stand Your Ground statute, Martin reacted wrongly.

 

So here you have it. Two people under a gross misinterpretation by one, both apparently invoking the Stand Your Ground statute, and the situation degenerated into two gunslingers in Dodge City, except that one of them never had a gun.

 

Conclusion: It's a bad law.

I agree that its a bad law. Also, I notice that the first media photos show a picture of a mug-shot-like photo of the Mexican American and a tall and muscular Afro-American male. The first fotos made the self-defense concept a bit unbelievable, but the second ones made the claim very much believable. It was reported today that there was blood on his head when he was checked.

 

I don't know most of the details and none of us do, but there is enough to suspect that the Mexican-American could end up convicted because "the system" is afraid an aquittal would end in riots.

Edited March 29, 2012 by charles brough

[imatfaal]

I agree that its a bad law. Also, I notice that the first media photos show a picture of a mug-shot-like photo of the Mexican American and a tall and muscular Afro-American male. The first fotos made the self-defense concept a bit unbelievable, but the second ones made the claim very much believable. It was reported today that there was blood on his head when he was checked.

 

I don't know most of the details and none of us do, but there is enough to suspect that the Mexican-American could end up convicted because "the system" is afraid an aquittal would end in riots.

 

So your first post promulgated falsifications/distractions about Rodney King and your most recent seems to claim that the only reason a young black man's killer would be convicted is the threat of riots

[john5746]

I think, after catching up on the incident, that there are some misconceptions here. From what I understand there was a couple of eye witnesses that saw Martin on top of Zimmerman, the ambulance treated zimmerman for superficial wounds on the scene, and people are creating scenarios based on suppositions and assumptions. The police treat people a certain way due to what they find at the scene. If the situation looked to be what Zimmerman stated it was, then why would the police treat it differently? Not to mention these witnesses must have coroborated the state of the situation or else the police would have acted differently in my view.

 

The police got a call from Zimmerman, told him not to pursue. Zimmerman was not in any danger, he reported no crime and Zimmerman has a gun. Zimmerman is responsible from that moment on. A struggle with Martin afterward is irrelevant to his guilt, only what he is guilty of.

 

What I don't get is why people automatically make these types of situations race related. They do so before they even know the facts. I don't know all of the facts but only have my feeling of the situation by relating the attitude of those who took control of the scene with the little I do know. Which in no way insinuated a hate crime. Racial profiling maybe. But then there is more I could say about that which might get misconstrude. The fact of the matter is that this guy has already been found guilty by activist groups everywhere. Why? Just because the victim was black and the perp was white? It doesn't make sense when considering the actions of those at the scene.

 

This is why we don't allow mob rule. But, something that is interesting to me is that when I hear these things reported, I always give benefit of the doubt to the police. I figure there is obviously more to the story that will explain their actions. Other people distrust police automatically. So, we all have bias and we need to be careful about rushing to judgements.

 

Another thing to keep in mind is that police departments or any authority has much more power than individuals, so in this case if you could imagine what Martin's parents could do on their own to make sure justice is done vs the police. Put yourself in that situation, both Zimmerman's and Martin's parents.

[JustinW]

I can agree with that. I haven't really been following too closely and didn't know what the facts were. My assumptions were based strictly on the actions of those who took control of the scene after the fact.

 

This is why we don't allow mob rule. But, something that is interesting to me is that when I hear these things reported, I always give benefit of the doubt to the police. I figure there is obviously more to the story that will explain their actions. Other people distrust police automatically. So, we all have bias and we need to be careful about rushing to judgements.

Exactly, it's not like they don't know a situation for what it is. It's their job. If they weren't acting like Zimmerman was a cold blooded murderer then there has to be a reason.

 

 

Another thing to keep in mind is that police departments or any authority has much more power than individuals, so in this case if you could imagine what Martin's parents could do on their own to make sure justice is done vs the police.

Yeah I guess it's up to what they report as to whether the DA sees fit to press charges.

[imatfaal]

I can agree with that. I haven't really been following too closely and didn't know what the facts were. My assumptions were based strictly on the actions of those who took control of the scene after the fact.

 

Exactly, it's not like they don't know a situation for what it is. It's their job. If they weren't acting like Zimmerman was a cold blooded murderer then there has to be a reason....

 

But in a modern society with the rule of law we make sure we know what the reason you refer to is; there is a fair amount of historical precedent that the reason for the police's attitude is that the dead person is a young black man.

[JustinW]

imatfaal,

 

there is a fair amount of historical precedent that the reason for the police's attitude is that the dead person is a young black man.

Could be, I guess it's possible. I'm not sure how to respond. I have conflicting feelings about the subject. On one hand it would be a shame if people really were that callus about such a thing. On the other hand, I guess just depending on where you're at, it could be somewhat of a norm to see that most murder victims are young black men.

 

 

But in a modern society with the rule of law we make sure we know what the reason you refer to is

Sure. Has the whole report come out yet? I haven't heard and I'm curious as to the circumstances of the situation and the reason that he gives for feeling justified in pursuit when specifically requested not to. Edited March 30, 2012 by JustinW

[john5746]

Exactly, it's not like they don't know a situation for what it is. It's their job. If they weren't acting like Zimmerman was a cold blooded murderer then there has to be a reason.

 

Well, that's the rationale for giving the police the benefit. Setting aside race, departments are comprised of individuals. Individuals do make mistakes, sometimes with malice, sometimes by carelessness. We do know that when these mistakes are made, departments(any depts, not just police) don't do the best job of policing themselves. They also give themselves the benefit of the doubt.

[JustinW]

john5746,

 

Well, that's the rationale for giving the police the benefit. Setting aside race, departments are comprised of individuals. Individuals do make mistakes, sometimes with malice, sometimes by carelessness. We do know that when these mistakes are made, departments(any depts, not just police) don't do the best job of policing themselves. They also give themselves the benefit of the doubt.

I was refering to their exposure to these types of situations. They see these kinds of things more than your average citizen, so they will be more used to it and probably more capable of understanding the situation quicker than your average citizens. Although I will agree to your assessment in that people make mistakes. And they are not always good at taking responsibility for those mistakes. So I can see where you're coming from.

[charles brough]

So your first post promulgated falsifications/distractions about Rodney King and your most recent seems to claim that the only reason a young black man's killer would be convicted is the threat of riots

Why be so hostile?

 

But, something that is interesting to me is that when I hear these things reported, I always give benefit of the doubt to the police. I figure there is obviously more to the story that will explain their actions. Other people distrust police automatically. So, we all have bias and we need to be careful about rushing to judgements.

I agree. I am dismayed about how the information we get from the media shifts from one thing to the opposite and back, that is, how deceptive a picture we are getting. I no longer try to judge who was wrong. It is a mistake. A more accurate resolution will eventually come out.

[ewmon]

If they [the police] weren't acting like Zimmerman was a cold blooded murderer then there has to be a reason.

And they weren't. Take a look at the video of them getting out of the police cruiser and walking into the offices. If they thought he was guilty of something, they'd be all over him like white on rice. They'd be pulling him out of the cruiser and physically escorting him (by hand). As they walk past the motorcycles, the cop behind him wasn't even near him, and Zimmerman walked to the right of a motorcycle and the cop walked to the left of it, not even watching what Zimmerman was doing. Criminals like to do bad things like kicking over a police motorcycle. It's like watching a bunch of cops ambling into a doughnut shop for coffee. They considered him "one of them", that's the reason. He was community watch. One of them.

 

However, Zimmerman's call to the police is delusional. Let me define delusional: belief in something that is contrary to fact or reality, resulting from deception, a misconception, or a mental disorder. Myself, I'm leaning toward mental disorder. Zimmerman says about Martin: "a real suspicious guy ..... up to no good ..... on drugs or something ..... has his hand in his waistband ..... something's wrong with him ..... he's got something in his hands ..... these assholes ..... always get away ..... these fucking punks". In his own words, the would-be shooter Zimmerman already sees Martin as a "[possibly-armed, doped-up] fucking asshole [criminal]".

 

Just maybe, Martin was walking home with Skittles and iced tea and frightened about this delusional wannabe cop who was stalking him. Zimmerman was right about one thing though when he said, "something's wrong with him" ..... yeah, that "something wrong" was Zimmerman.

[JustinW]

ewmon,

 

Zimmerman says about Martin: "a real suspicious guy ..... up to no good ..... on drugs or something ..... has his hand in his waistband ..... something's wrong with him ..... he's got something in his hands ..... these assholes ..... always get away ..... these fucking punks". In his own words, the would-be shooter Zimmerman already sees Martin as a "[possibly-armed, doped-up] fucking asshole [criminal]".

If this is the case then I can definitely see your point. If this is the way Zimmerman was thinking before the incident happened then the police were justified in telling him to back off, Martin would have had every right to be fearful, and Zimmerman's intentions appear to be starting trouble rather than defending his neighborhood against it.

[ewmon]

The police released Zimmerman the next day without charging him, apparently without taking a mugshot (as the police haven't released any mugshot), and the police seemed to release him without confiscating his gun (after his release) or determining that it was his gun that shot Martin. I doubt Florida's state crime lab completed a ballistics test in less than a day.

 

Now there's two voice forensic experts claiming that the calls for help were not made by Zimmerman. I'd expect to find a few forensic experts who would make such a claim because it's somewhat easy to claim it's not Zimmerman's voice when you don't have Martin's voice for comparison, so I question their opinions; however, this is bound to stir the public.

 

It looks more and more like authorities tried to sweep this killing under the rug. Did they even keep Zimmerman's clothes? There's a huge vacuum where evidence should be.

[JustinW]

ewmon,

 

The police released Zimmerman the next day without charging him, apparently without taking a mugshot (as the police haven't released any mugshot), and the police seemed to release him without confiscating his gun (after his release) or determining that it was his gun that shot Martin. I doubt Florida's state crime lab completed a ballistics test in less than a day.

Yeah, I myself have had a horrible experience with Florida's crime lab. Though I'm sure it's not the same one, nothing would surprise me after the clash I had with them.

 

Now there's two voice forensic experts claiming that the calls for help were not made by Zimmerman. I'd expect to find a few forensic experts who would make such a claim because it's somewhat easy to claim it's not Zimmerman's voice when you don't have Martin's voice for comparison, so I question their opinions; however, this is bound to stir the public.

Maybe that is someone's intention. You know how the public likes a good scandal.

 

I don't know...some things seem mighty suspicious, while on the other hand I keep telling myself that there has to be a reason for officials to be acting like Zimmerman is innocent.

 

 

 

Just out of curiousity, what are the qualifications of becoming a forensic voice expert. I've never heard of one.

[Anders Hoveland]

this is a science forum, you are all supposed to be geniuses...

Did any of you wonder why this story received attention throughout the entire country from the media?

 

There have been plenty of other shockingly violent attacks of gangs of black youth on older men from an outside race. Rapes and murders are not uncommon in these types of incidences. But these stories are generally confined to the local regions. Even people within the same state never hear what goes on.

 

Obviously this was a case of a black youth being racially profiled, which led to his death as a result. But the fact that we are even discussing this story in this forum is just more proof that the media is pushing a political/social agenda by being selective about what it does and does not show on televission.

 

Even Florida is a very populated state. There are around 40 murders in the city of Orlando alone every year. We never hear about those.

And we never hear about who commits these murders... http://jacksonville.com/news/crime

(my point is that if you found this link offensive, perhaps you should ask yourself why you did not find it offensive that the media has been making such a big fuss about the story being discussed in this thread, this was a racially motivated murder also)

 

Here is just one example of a story Americans never saw in their national media:

http://mylifeofcrime.wordpress.com/2007/03/03/melissa-missi-ann-mclauchlin-murder-123092/

I think we all know what would have been in the media had the a gang of white men done the same to a black...

Edited April 3, 2012 by Anders Hoveland

[JustinW]

this is a science forum, you are all supposed to be geniuses...

 

We are, don't you know that?

 

 

Obviously this was a case of a black youth being racially profiled, which led to his death as a result. But the fact that we are even discussing this story in this forum is just more proof that the media is pushing a political/social agenda by being selective about what it does and does not show on televission.

Here is just one example of a story Americans never saw in their national media:

http://mylifeofcrime...-murder-123092/

I think we all know what would have been in the media had the a gang of white men done the same to a black...

 

Yeah, you're probably right. Maybe they just see white on black crime as more of a story than black on white crime. Plus if the stats are true, black on black crime is more prevailant than either. You would think that Rev.Jesse Jackson would get on board to stop the violence between themselves in their own community.(hopefully without inciting violence with anyone else) But I believe with the actions of the social activists that speakout on behalf of the African American community in this country that they are more interested in a political agenda rather than solving real issues. And I'm not saying that things like this Martin/Zimmerman case are not real issues, but you would think that popular figures in social groups would lend their voices at other times to things like prison population, education, job skills, crime rates, etc... But, and this might have more to do with the media than anything, the only time the majority of this country ever hears from those figures is when something that can be construde as racist happens. I guess all I'm really saying is that I would like to see those social/community organizers doing more for their community than just raising hell when something like this happens. If they did have more of a voice on regular issues, they might have more of a impact on issues where racism is involved.(and hopefully a peacefull impact)

[ewmon]

Will rioting develop in Stockton FL?

I think one of worst-case scenarios — although a most likely one — is that the authorities will find that a lot of evidence and testimony has been lost or significantly degraded (including chain of custody), such as people's memories, any injuries to Zimmerman, the condition of Zimmerman's clothing, the Skittles and iced tea, etc. From there, the authorities could say that, unlike previously, now there's not enough evidence to try Zimmerman or that trying him would be unfair to Zimmerman. Another outcome could be that they try Zimmerman and find him not guilty due to the inability to make a sufficient case against him due to the lost/degraded evidence and testimony.

 

This could cause mass discontent/rioting.

[JustinW]

One question...who drinks ice tea while they eat skittles? I find that highly suspicious in itself.

[ewmon]

The authorities could have at least analyzed the voice recordings to determine who was crying for help. They seemed to treat it like an internal affairs case.