People who believe in god are broken

[SplitInfinity]

Split Infinity,

 

I understand your point, about religious people that are operating with such a diverse mindset from "reason", that they cannot be reasoned with. One of my main reasons for trying to understand what people "mean" by god, was 9/11, where the action, done presumably in the name of Allah, to deal a blow to Satan, looked like nothing more than pure Evil to me. Death and destruction for no purpose, no goal, no sensible reason.

 

I am an enemy of those that would be behind such a day as 9/11. I am not the enemy of the creator of the universe. Therefore the action was not taken by the creator of the universe, and anyone thinking that the creator of the universe was served by such an action, is in serious error.

 

So for me, in this discussion, where belief in the creator of the universe is being equated with error and brokeness, I fully agree, as in the case of 9/11, where it is so obvious that the creator of the universe would not do such a contrary thing, and therefore it must be the act of broken persons, in serious error.

 

This however does not convict God of the act, nor prove to us, that there is not a higher standard we should hold ourselves to.

 

So if God exists, he wouldn't do that, and if God doesn't exist, he didn't do that by virtue of the fact that he doesn't exist to do that.

 

Which leaves only us, to figure out what should and shouldn't be done, what standards to enforce and uphold, and what things are good and what things are bad for us, here and now, and for our children, who will take our places when we die.

 

In this, the "idea" of God, of an overarching ideal that we are responsible to, and "working for", when we do our job correctly, is not a bad thing to believe in.

 

However, if you think personally, that you are the only one on the job, the only one doing it right...you have somehow missed the point.

 

Regards, TAR2

 

Tar...What I am trying to convey is...from MY experience...and such experience is long...almost 3 decades...and extensive...of all the groups and people I have had to deal with...those who performed the most vicious and violent actions as well as being people who I had a very difficult to almost impossible time trying to find common ground from which to broker an agreement with...were people and groups that acted out of Religious ideals and concepts.

 

This in no way means everyone who believes in a GOD or follows a Religion is vicious and violent or would ever do anything that would call for a visit from me and my team.

 

All this means is that from my experience...as well as the experience of others that do what I sometimes do as I have had many a conversation about this...the most unpredictable, violent, dangerous, self righteous, least concerned for innocent life and willing to do just about ANYTHING to further their cause...are those people who are HIGHLY RELIGIOUS BELIEVERS IN A GOD.

 

You would not BELIEVE some of the things such people have on their RAP SHEET. It reads like a DEMON'S LIST!

 

Now I do not think people who believe in a GOD are broken. But there are some who definitely are and seem to exist at a much greater percentage of the whole than any other group.

 

Split Infinity

[Popcorn Sutton]

I hate to join in without reading the previous 69 pages but that is what I am going to do (sorry no offense to the rest of the posters).

 

Split, I learn more about you every post. It's nice to get to know more about you, I had my suspicions about who you were, but those have been put to rest by now.

 

I do not believe that people who believe in god are broken. What does it mean to be "broken" in the first place? I assume that it means something along the lines of having a negative impact on society. I think we can all agree that we are all victims to cause and effect and that our minds are no exception. That being said, the issue of whether there is a creator or not is still moot, and I'm not sure if the issue will ever be anything less than moot. Therefor, to say that people who believe in God are broken is a gross overgeneralization. It doesn't hold for everyone. I consider myself to be along the lines of agnostic, not that I have no theory of a creator, just that the only plausible theory IMO is that a creature is responsible for the computational program that we live in (if that statement has any merit). Therefor, is this belief (one that I have not yet conclusively made a stance on and will not for good purposes philosophical) in itself a belief that will cause me to justifiably kill or harm innocent people? Even if the answer is yes, I would also need to believe that I have a body that will allow me to perform those actions. So, given this bit, the premise that the belief in God (in itself) is detrimental and, in [fact], a harmful belief for society, all things being equal, is not sufficient to conclude that it should be eliminated from our knowledge. Imo, there's no harm in believing in god, and the belief itself will not make you "broken". Cause and effect, pragmatically speaking, is, however, a good premise on the harmful nature of beliefs, but only if, in every circumstance, that belief was presumed in the action and/or used as justification for an immoral action.

[SplitInfinity]

I hate to join in without reading the previous 69 pages but that is what I am going to do (sorry no offense to the rest of the posters).

 

Split, I learn more about you every post. It's nice to get to know more about you, I had my suspicions about who you were, but those have been put to rest by now.

 

I do not believe that people who believe in god are broken. What does it mean to be "broken" in the first place? I assume that it means something along the lines of having a negative impact on society. I think we can all agree that we are all victims to cause and effect and that our minds are no exception. That being said, the issue of whether there is a creator or not is still moot, and I'm not sure if the issue will ever be anything less than moot. Therefor, to say that people who believe in God are broken is a gross overgeneralization. It doesn't hold for everyone. I consider myself to be along the lines of agnostic, not that I have no theory of a creator, just that the only plausible theory IMO is that a creature is responsible for the computational program that we live in (if that statement has any merit). Therefor, is this belief (one that I have not yet conclusively made a stance on and will not for good purposes philosophical) in itself a belief that will cause me to justifiably kill or harm innocent people? Even if the answer is yes, I would also need to believe that I have a body that will allow me to perform those actions. So, given this bit, the premise that the belief in God (in itself) is detrimental and, in [fact], a harmful belief for society, all things being equal, is not sufficient to conclude that it should be eliminated from our knowledge. Imo, there's no harm in believing in god, and the belief itself will not make you "broken". Cause and effect, pragmatically speaking, is, however, a good premise on the harmful nature of beliefs, but only if, in every circumstance, that belief was presumed in the action and/or used as justification for an immoral action.

 

Pop...the violent people I have been describing do not think for a second what they are doing is wrong. In fact they actually believe with 100% Certainty that by doing such horrifying acts they are ensuring their entry into Heaven or Paradise.

 

What is even worse is that many times these self righteous scumbags will exhibit such cowardice as they are perfectly willing to be very vocal about what they feel should be done and will preach so to many...but when the time comes for them to enact their plans...it is not THEY who will be sacrificing their lives in some twisted act of terror...but instead they will convince some KID to do so with the promise of Virgins and Paradise.

 

This is also true in the U.S. as there are many Ultra-Religious Terrorists be it about Planned Parenthood or Gay Marriage or Separation of Church and State...who indoctrinate the youth and the poor as they preach that all the problems these people are enduring are caused by any people or group...such as a Planned Parenthood Clinic....and that GOD wants young Johnny X to kill a Doctor as this will cure all Johnny X's problems and GOD will reward him.

 

These people REALLY BELIEVE THIS...although some in leadership know they are using but pawns.

 

I am not supposed to get involved with anything Stateside but if anyone believes THAT...I have some Swampland in Florida for sale! LOL! MANY TIMES....such U.S. Based Groups have the backing of members of Congress as they are Large Campaign Contributors and sometimes such groups CROSS THE LINE...and when that happens...either Deals are Brokered or Money is Paid. And if that doesn't work...a last attempt is made....and it is made 100% CLEAR to such people or groups..."Either take the deal or your group will cease to exist."

 

Now when something of this nature is made CLEAR to people or groups overseas...THEY UNDERSTAND COMPLETELY what the result will be to refuse to take the deal...and almost 100% of the time a deal is brokered. If they are Hardcore Ultra-Religious Fanatics on the outside but the leadership is NOT and uses religion as a mechanism to get people to do things...about 80% of the time they take the deal. If the leadership are also fanatics...about only 5% of the time will a deal be made and brokered.

 

The thing is....RATIONAL PEOPLE...are well aware EXACTLY what it means if I am there with my team and I can work with RATIONAL PEOPLE regardless of what are the politics or what we think of each other. When the Leadership of such groups is just as INSANE as the membership...there is ZERO% chance of a deal and I KNOW THIS and because of it I also know if they agree to a MEETING...then there is a 99.99999% chance it is a setup designed to kill us.

 

When such people agree to a meeting and I know it is a setup...I still have to go as even though there is only a .00001% chance a deal will be brokered...we still have to try as even if we go after them...we could never get them all so a DEAL is ALWAYS better than confrontation.

 

I have posted this before so I will not go into detail but it was EXACTLY what I am talking about here that was the cause of my being SHOT multiple times in the chest at close range and if I had not been wearing a Ultra-Light High Tech. Vest...it has no Metal or Ceramic Plate inserts and CATCHES a round like a Chinese Finger Puzzle...and is designed to allow full range of movement, designed for High Temps. and Water based Op's...and although it will not stop small arms fire from penetrating a persons body...it will stop a round from deep ballistic penetration...as long as it is not a 50 Cal. or along that lines. It will even stop some small arms Armor Piercing rounds due to how it works.

 

Anyways...BECAUSE I WAS STUPID...and was full of myself and patting myself on the back for several Very Successful JOBS...in a row...and because of this thought I was Bullet Proof and could get people to work things out with us....I MISSED what later on I realized to be OBVIOUS SIGNS OR CLUES as to these dirt bags intentions...AND THANKFULLY...I was the only one who paid for it as I was shot at close range and none of my guys was hit.

 

I learned a VALUABLE LESSON that day and it was not just the lesson of allowing my EGO and PRIDE dictate how I should go about such things as well as the lesson to always TRUST YOUR INSTINCTS....as when this meeting started...MY SUBCONSCIOUS WAS SCREAMING TO ME DANGER! DANGER!...and I ignored it.

 

But the real VALUABLE LESSON I LEARNED WAS...When it comes to trying to work things out with such people or even go to a meeting...THIS TYPE OF PEOPLE COULD NOT BE TRUSTED IN ANY WAY OR ANY POSSIBLE REASON! They cannot be trusted to do or act in any way that takes into account a VALUE UPON HUMAN LIFE...no matter what the age of a person might be or whether they are a Mother or Grandfather or little Boy or Girl...NEVER MIND a 6 foot 1 plus 225 lbs Man carrying a weapon.

 

The SOLE INTENT OF THIS MEETING...was to KILL ME. There was no other purpose for it as far as they were concerned. The more we passed along our intentions of desiring to solve this in a peacefully and civil manner...the greater the enthusiasm this group had in planning to kill me.

 

There was one person in particular who was a Leader of this group and unlike other groups where the Leaders hide behind walls and Governmental positions as they use Pawns to do their Dirty Work...THIS GUY...well he liked to BE THERE and be all nice and personal. Reports alerted us to the reality that he was very intelligent...which I mistaked for an opportunity to be able to REASON with such a person.

 

What I did not understand at the time is that although he was highly intelligent....He was completely INSANE. He actually though he had GOD inside him pulling the trigger and thrusting the knife.

 

He shot me several times and I went down. We had a few team members with Barrett 50 Cal's set up but this happened so fast...and I don't think he thought I was wearing a vest as this Ultra-Light one is very thin and I was wearing it under my cloths...so I don't think he knew I was wearing a vest because his shots could have easily been in my HEAD.

 

I went down angry beyond belief. Mostly angry with myself for being so F'n STUPID! The 50 Cal's opened up but the guy who got me was now down behind a large bolder. My Team member was down to my right taking fire and as he was asking me how I was I saw the guy who shot me move a bit and start to take off.

 

I looked for and found my rifle...used my team members body to rest my weapon upon and then ended this guy...with A LOT of satisfaction I might add. It was the FIRST AND ONLY time I have EVER been HAPPY to do something of this nature...and I do not have nightmares about it...except the part of getting shot as I have OVER AND OVER again thought about how LUCKY I was that none of my guy's were hurt or killed.

 

It could have very well been that WE were the ones being ended. I think about this all the time and I am actually THANKFUL for it as it was a hard lesson to learn but a lesson that keeps me and my people alive. I will NEVER AGAIN...make the mistake of allowing my EGO or PRIDE dictate how I handle any JOB. I also have sworn to myself TO NEVER FORGET...IF SOMETHING FEELS WRONG IT IS WRONG....as we have INSTINCTS FOR A REASON! To keep us alive. And that day I had made the mistake of fearing that if I treated this person with distrust he would be insulted and this could possibly ruin the chance for a deal.

 

Now...I could CARE LESS how another sees me or thinks or feels about me. Getting a deal done is not worth the lives of my guys or myself.

 

Sorry that was so long.

 

It is a touchy subject for me and I am shaking just typing it as the anger...which I am directing at myself for being such an IDIOT...is coursing through me.

 

Split Infinity

[Popcorn Sutton]

Wow Split. I'm sorry for your experience, you moved me with that post. I can say nothing less than I love you. I think you do this world a great service and I'm glad to have you here with us. If there is anything I can do for you, let me know.

[SplitInfinity]

Wow Split. I'm sorry for your experience, you moved me with that post. I can say nothing less than I love you. I think you do this world a great service and I'm glad to have you here with us. If there is anything I can do for you, let me know.

 

Pop...just to be clear...I am NOT Military although most of my Family is...so as the word...SERVICE...tends to make people think of Military Service...I just wanted people to know that I have not been of service in that manner.

 

A better word to use would be...Maintenance.

 

Split Infinity

[tar]

Split,

 

I will have to agree with you, when you put it that way, that people that believe in God are broken. At least those that fit the fanatic description. They have obviously mistaken the situation, and bought a line of crap, that has no bearing on, or function in, reality.

 

They are, as you put it, either stupid pawns in the brainwashed and decieved young case, or insane in the sociopathic "leader" case.

 

I forget who said it long ago in this thread, but to paraphrase that somebody "you can believe any damn fool thing you want, just don't make it affect me."

 

Perhaps, as you shook in anger, retelling the story, beyond the anger you felt at yourself for not listening to your own instincts, was your anger at the insanity that the shooter had brought into "our" reality.

 

In anycase Split, thank you, for what you do. I know you do it, on "our" behalf.

 

Regards, TAR2

[SplitInfinity]

Split,

 

I will have to agree with you, when you put it that way, that people that believe in God are broken. At least those that fit the fanatic description. They have obviously mistaken the situation, and bought a line of crap, that has no bearing on, or function in, reality.

 

They are, as you put it, either stupid pawns in the brainwashed and decieved young case, or insane in the sociopathic "leader" case.

 

I forget who said it long ago in this thread, but to paraphrase that somebody "you can believe any damn fool thing you want, just don't make it affect me."

 

Perhaps, as you shook in anger, retelling the story, beyond the anger you felt at yourself for not listening to your own instincts, was your anger at the insanity that the shooter had brought into "our" reality.

 

In anycase Split, thank you, for what you do. I know you do it, on "our" behalf.

 

Regards, TAR2

 

I appreciate your words but I feel uncomfortable being thanked...if you can understand why I would.

 

There are somethings that I have...Let the Cat out of the Bag...and this is one of them and as I just explained to Pop in a PM...the reason that ANYONE even knows about this story is because of the VEST.

 

I have already gotten into Hot Water over talking about this but since I really don't care I will tell you what I told Pop.

 

I want ALL U.S .MILITARY PERSONAL to be able to have a stronger version of these vests. The reason why they don't is...MONEY!

 

These vests are EXTREMELY EXPENSIVE and a version for standard use would be even more so.

 

The Brass would rather spend such money on Big Ticket Defense Systems rather than on such vests and I am NOT happy about it. The vests would have to be thicker and larger to cover more area upon a Soldiers Body but expensive as it would be...it could replace these HEAVY, THICK, HOT, DIFFICULT TO WEAR....VESTS...that do not allow easy movement and weigh a ton.

 

If you see our guy's in the desert they have to slide Metal Plates into their vests and this makes the damn things so hot and heavy that many will not use the metal plates and if they get hit...the round will go right through the old vests.

 

As I said...if it were not a fact I am advocating the switch to these High Tech Vest Designs...no one here would have ever known about them nor would I have told that story.

 

That vest saved my life and I can tell you...where I was...the difficulty it took to get there as well as the heat...if I didn't have that vest I would not have been wearing a vest with heavy Metal Plates slid into it. I would have not put in the plates...and I would be very much dead.

 

Split Infinity

 

One thing that I have issue with is how certain people of Religion will not respect another persons right to believe what they will and will evangelize their religion to the point where a person has to practically scream...ENOUGH!

 

They also cannot accept that a person who does not believe as they do or will not convert to their religion after their attempts to convince a person that their religion is the only true belief...they can't accept the idea that another's beliefs are acceptable or sane.

 

Now I have a problem with this as I respect their right to believe whatever they wish but I do not respect their concepts that those who do not believe as they must have something wrong with they and that this differing person must be SAVED.

 

If there was anything that could be called BROKEN...it is a person who is so self righteous to believe that ONLY THEIR religious beliefs are important or true.

 

Split Infinity

[tar]

Split,

 

I see your point about the vests. But that might be another thread, to discuss whether it was the vest, or the fact the shooter did not know you were wearing one, that saved your life. Like you said, if he knew you were likely to be wearing such a vest, he would have shot you in the head, or poisoned you, or burned you, or cut off your head with a sword. But to bring the vest idea, back to the thread, in terms of one person thinking they know what would "save" another...there is always, or nearly always, another way to look at a thing. A thing might "work" in many ways, and not work in other ways. Like the current style vest, that is not used for its intended purpose, because of the weight and heat...there are places were ANY belief, has some weaknesses or places they do not work, or places were a belief is "out of place".

 

Let's say for instance one is very soundly ensconced in a university and is a leader of thought and integrity and knows many things, and believes many things and finds herself a survivor of a shipwreck on a desert island. Very few of her beliefs would apply to the situation, and stripped of her support system and technology, she may have to revert to lessons she learned in girlscouts, to survive. Knowing the square root of 3 or how to derive a fact from a logical proof, or knowing the best practices in business or politics might not be useful or pertinent. With no one else but herself and the island to depend on, her belief in the proper color of shoes to wear will not apply to the situation.

 

She would not be bound by the laws of man, nor privy to the protection of her society. She would be on her own, to develop a workable relationship with the island...or die...unless she was rescued ("saved").

 

Regards, TAR2

[knownothing]

I noticed that this has been going on for a very long time, so I guess I'll throw my opinion out there. It might be similar to something that has already been said, but I am not going to read seventy pages of comments. Go to the bottom for TL;DR.

 

Religion does not break a person, it satisfies several needs they have without actually having to provide anything. God is the ultimate placebo. God is the most efficient lie ever told to the human race. Without God, people need true reasons to be satisfied, and in many cases they will never find them without just making up their own secular superstitions. Theism is a simple and attractive world view that eases all of your worries and excuses the world for being a dreadful place. Reason has made our lives better, but in the process we have "broken" the human species. I use "break" here in the sense that you must break a wild animal before you can start to tame it. Religious people are humans in their natural state of willful ignorance. The human mind is a wild animal and you must break it.

 

I think that, for those of us who are not intelligent to start with, reason cannot be taught to us past the barrier of our superstitious worldview. To give an example, I only turned away from religion after it became humiliating and degrading for me. I have never been the sharpest tool in the shed. If we are not intelligent and honest enough to break away on our own, we must be alienated from our religions to have the ability to break away from them. Christianity, at its most powerful, can be like a cult. If you have ever been in the grip of optimally-functioning Christianity, you will see that it is something akin to mind control. This is not even taking into account the hopelessness a young child has of getting to rationally reflect on the truth of the claims that a man walked on water and magically changed the properties of liquid before these claims become part of his or her developmental knowledge of history. It is not fair to call these people broken, because, in everyday life, they are functionally just like you or me but are having their needs satisfied by their imagination instead. They are highly-functioning delusional people. And let me add that belief in God does not have the monopoly on delusion.

 

It becomes simply absurd to blame a person for being delusional when you consider a repressed society such as the Islamic world. I was able to become a skeptic and a rationalist because the United States is one of the most secular places in the world (despite what some might say). It is folly to place blame on a Saudi woman for not understanding that the dogma and customs that she must practice are nonsense. There is a great deal of determinism involved in shaping a human mind, and there is a point when you can no longer call a person stupid for being delusional, nor can you call them "broken". As I said, our minds want to be tricked. It is human nature to be delusional. I could be delusional right now and not even know it. We are social animals who, simply put, do not care about the truth. We care that the truth serves us. Even the dedicated scientist searches for truth because of the pleasure that it gives to him or her. In the end, we skeptics seek the truth because we can't stand not knowing. Even in looking for harsh reality, we are running from uncertainty.

 

TL;DR: The human brain is such an exploitable and dishonest piece of equipment that it is unfair to call a delusional person "broken". It is characteristic of humans to be biased and narrow-minded.

Edited June 17, 2013 by knownothing

[krash661]

TL;DR: The human brain is such an exploitable and dishonest piece of equipment that it is unfair to call a delusional person "broken". It is characteristic of humans to be biased and narrow-minded.

well said.

[science4ever]

knownothing

I like your TLDR but I wonder about this. Do we have any scienctific research

on how this work out in practice. I wanted to become a believer since 1983

but fail to trick me into the delusion. I find it too far out and not possible to support.

 

But I know I can be in delusion by pure accidental habit. When I where ten years old

I started to trust all those that reported about UFOs but that was maybe a sign of

my gullibility I did find it too unlikely that all of them lied. Fortunately I happen to read

a book by Jaques Vallee that pointed out that humans seems to have these kind of expereinces

for as long as we have written history so it is a common human delusion. there are no Aliens

it is all in the head of those that retell their experience.

 

so based on your take on delusion. Is the following reasonable idea?

Can one decied to believe in something one know is not true?

[iNow]

Yes, but it's usually a sign of mental illness when that happens.

[Iggy]

Yes, but it's usually a sign of mental illness when that happens.

 

Mentally ill people don't know the delusion isn't true. Mentally sane people know things and profess opposite beliefs.

 

People who know things and color them exactly as they see them are mostly autistic... and I could make an argument for autistic people being broken.

 

"deciding to believe in something one knows is not true" isn't a sign of mental illness. It is a sign of humanity.

 

If it is broken, then broken we are.

[Moontanman]

Amazing, 70 pages of this and it is still being questioned at it's most basic level....

[ydoaPs]

Amazing, 70 pages of this and it is still being questioned at it's most basic level....

I still think my post #456 of this thread is fairly spot on.

[John Cuthber]

 

Mentally ill people don't know the delusion isn't true. Mentally sane people know things and profess opposite beliefs.

 

People who know things and color them exactly as they see them are mostly autistic... and I could make an argument for autistic people being broken.

 

"deciding to believe in something one knows is not true" isn't a sign of mental illness. It is a sign of humanity.

 

If it is broken, then broken we are.

Well, that settles it

"Mentally ill people don't know the delusion isn't true. "

The people who go to Church on Sunday don't know their delusion isn't true.

So the "believers" are mentally ill.

 

On the other hand this

""deciding to believe in something one knows is not true" isn't a sign of mental illness. It is a sign of humanity. "

is a problem.

How would you go about deciding to believe that I am a cabbage white butterfly?

Seriously, what would you do in order to be able to pass the lie detector test while asserting that I'm a butterfly (Pieris brassicae to my friends)?

For the moment, let's assume there is a lie detector that actually works.

[Iggy]

Well, that settles it

"Mentally ill people don't know the delusion isn't true. "

The people who go to Church on Sunday don't know their delusion isn't true.

So the "believers" are mentally ill.

No, that isn't what I said, and it's frankly a dishonest or mentally ill conclusion to make from what I said. I don't think you're mentally ill, so something else must be going on.

 

The sane people who go to church on Sunday know very well that the crap preached to them isn't true, and that's exactly what makes them sane, but you didn't get that from what I said. You'll have to reread what I said.

 

How old are you? I'm looking for an explanation for this miscommunication.

[John Cuthber]

At 47, I'm old enough to know that you should be able to cite a reason why you believe that "The sane people who go to church on Sunday know very well that the crap preached to them isn't true,".

It also rather misses the point of the thread which says

"People who believe in god are broken".

Those who don't believe, but go to church anyway may well be sane.

However those who do believe are, by your assertion, insane.

 

In the meantime, how well are you getting on with explaining how you choose to believe that I'm a butterfly?

Did you misunderstand that that was a question, or is there some other reason?

Was the conclusion that you didn't need to answer it "a dishonest or mentally ill conclusion to make from what I said".

Edited July 12, 2013 by John Cuthber

[Iggy]

At 47, I'm old enough to know that you should be able to cite a reason why you believe that "The sane people who go to church on Sunday know very well that the crap preached to them isn't true,".

You want me to cite evidence of what other people believe?

 

Ok... I can only try to dissuade you from your belief that all church going folk are insane by telling you that that I've been there, as have my many good friends... and we aren't crazy. Thanks.

 

Some of the most rational and sane people I've met were at church. I'm sorry that doesn't fit your recent 47 year narrative, but it is quite true.

 

It also rather misses the point of the thread which says

"People who believe in god are broken".

Revisit my post to which you are responding. I said "If it is broken, then broken we are".

 

Misses the point

 

How old, again?

Edited July 12, 2013 by Iggy

[knownothing]

 

The sane people who go to church on Sunday know very well that the crap preached to them isn't true, and that's exactly what makes them sane, but you didn't get that from what I said. You'll have to reread what I said.

 

I was reading Bertrand Russel's "An Outline of Intellectual Rubbish" today. I love this part in particular:

 

 

Give me an adequate army, with power to provide it with more pay and better food than falls to the lot of the average man, and I will undertake, within thirty years, to make the majority of the population believe that two and two are three, that water freezes when it gets hot and boils when it gets cold, or any other nonsense that might seem to serve the interest of the State. Of course, even when these beliefs had been generated, people would not put the kettle in the ice-box when they wanted it to boil. That cold makes water boil would be a Sunday truth, sacred and mystical, to be professed in awed tones, but not to be acted on in daily life. What would happen would be that any verbal denial of the mystic doctrine would be made illegal, and obstinate heretics would be "frozen" at the stake.

 

I like this "Sunday truth" phrase. It seems that you are right, Iggy. Christians do not trust their whole being to Yahweh. The power of God is a "Sunday truth" for most who profess to be Christians. They take antibiotics and provide for themselves, thanking God afterwards for some reason. By thanking God for their own actions, they are conveniently allowed to take any responsibility off of God. Even worse, most Christians refuse to follow the Great Commission by becoming missionaries and stick with bumper sticker evangelism. They only follow what commandments are convenient, and many of them are avowed capitalists which is a real head-scratcher if you have read up on the teachings of Christ.

 

Of course, this shows that they are not too delusional. If they were truly delusional, they would be selling everything they owned and expecting God to pump out bonafide miracles. At a deep level, they understand that they cannot rely on God or Jesus to help them. It is a silent, tacit bit of knowledge that they dare not speak to themselves. God is great for the big stuff like a death in the family or going through rehab but he is just a pain in the ass when he wants you to tithe and love your enemies.

 

I have read that a belief in God was man's way of rebelling against his repugnant human nature. Denial of the self and complete submission are man's way of telling nature "you can't control me!" Christians believe that the state of human nature is evil, and God is their answer. While many of them cannot believe this mentally, it is essential that they believe it emotionally, and emotions win more often than not. I actually think that there is an important truth buried beneath all the lunacy in Genesis: Knowledge does not make us happy. When we learn cold hard facts, we need to come up with squishy lies to unlearn the facts. We learn about death, deprivation and cruelty and so we need to make up something to explain those things away.

 

This is actually a very impressive behavior coming from Humans. God was an ingenious piece of technology that acted as a powerful placebo for easing mental suffering and social unrest. Without a doubt, It was fear rather than curiosity that gave birth to religion. When we discount the assumption that knowledge is the most important thing to strive for, we ought to look at religion in awe of its ingenuity instead of with contempt. The belief in a benevolent wizard looks really dumb today, but I am asking you to imagine its conception thousands of years ago. I still don't think that religion is a noble lie that should continue to be told, though. I think that people should know the truth, and I guess that is what I have faith in.

Edited July 12, 2013 by knownothing

[Iggy]

I was reading Bertrand Russel's "An Outline of Intellectual Rubbish" today. I love this part in particular:

 

 

I like this "Sunday truth" phrase. It seems that you are right, Iggy. Christians do not trust their whole being to Yahweh. The power of God is a "Sunday truth" for most who profess to be Christians. They take antibiotics and provide for themselves, thanking God afterwards for some reason. By thanking God for their own actions, they are conveniently allowed to take any responsibility off of God. Even worse, most Christians refuse to follow the Great Commission by becoming missionaries and stick with bumper sticker evangelism. They only follow what commandments are convenient, and many of them are avowed capitalists which is a real head-scratcher if you have read up on the teachings of Christ.

 

Of course, this shows that they are not too delusional. If they were truly delusional, they would be selling everything they owned and expecting God to pump out bonafide miracles. At a deep level, they understand that they cannot rely on God or Jesus to help them. It is a silent, tacit bit of knowledge that they dare not speak to themselves. God is great for the big stuff like a death in the family or going through rehab but he is just a pain in the ass when he wants you to tithe and love your enemies.

 

I have read that a belief in God was man's way of rebelling against his repugnant human nature. Denial of the self and complete submission are man's way of telling nature "you can't control me!" Christians believe that the state of human nature is evil, and God is their answer. While many of them cannot believe this mentally, it is essential that they believe it emotionally, and emotions win more often than not. I actually think that there is an important truth buried beneath all the lunacy in Genesis: Knowledge does not make us happy. When we learn cold hard facts, we need to come up with squishy lies to unlearn the facts. We learn about death, deprivation and cruelty and so we need to make up something to explain those things away.

 

This is actually a very impressive behavior coming from Humans. God was an ingenious piece of technology that acted as a powerful placebo for easing mental suffering and social unrest. Without a doubt, It was fear rather than curiosity that gave birth to religion. When we discount the assumption that knowledge is the most important thing to strive for, we ought to look at religion in awe of its ingenuity instead of with contempt. The belief in a benevolent wizard looks really dumb today, but I am asking you to imagine its conception thousands of years ago. I still don't think that religion is a noble lie that should continue to be told, though. I think that people should know the truth, and I guess that is what I have faith in.

Oh, yes. Yes!

 

I tired to type out some kind of agreement. I tried to agree in words, but it's too much to agree with. You said exactly what I meant and quoted Bertrand Russel in the process, whom I absolutely love.

 

yes. YES!

 

stick around, please. I couldn't read enough of what you have to say.

[science4ever]

Know nothing what you wrote sounds very true to me

 

Without God, people need true reasons to be satisfied,

and in many cases they will never find them without just making up

their own secular superstitions.

 

And such sure exists. Aliens that come in big Mothership and will rescue the belivers.

Ancient Aliens that built the old civilisations and such myths and political conspiracy

superstitiouns like lizzard people that run this world behind scene using our leaders like puppets.

 

So us humans at least some of us are very vulnerable to wild ideas. Sad is it not.

The bad thing about placebo is that it gives false hope of being a real cure.

 

so why does not us secular set up a good reliable placebo for those that there are no real cure?

Why let the criminal get all the money on false hopes.

[Villain]

Oh, yes. Yes!

 

I tired to type out some kind of agreement. I tried to agree in words, but it's too much to agree with. You said exactly what I meant and quoted Bertrand Russel in the process, whom I absolutely love.

 

yes. YES!

 

stick around, please. I couldn't read enough of what you have to say.

 

Wow....get a room, so many yes' don't belong outside one .

[Iggy]

Wow....get a room, so many yes' don't belong outside one .

edit... ok... everything I just said is inappropriate.

 

I'm just as willing to make "yes" an inappropriate and dirty word as anyone else, but in this case, it really isn't.

Edited July 12, 2013 by Iggy

[John Cuthber]

You want me to cite evidence of what other people believe?

 

Ok... I can only try to dissuade you from your belief that all church going folk are insane by telling you that that I've been there, as have my many good friends... and we aren't crazy. Thanks.

 

Some of the most rational and sane people I've met were at church. I'm sorry that doesn't fit your recent 47 year narrative, but it is quite true.

 

 

Revisit my post to which you are responding. I said "If it is broken, then broken we are".

 

Misses the point

 

How old, again?

"Ok... I can only try to dissuade you from your belief that all church going folk are insane "

strawman.

I'm saying the people who believe in a God are delusional. Not all believers go to churches. Not all church goers are believers.

However, given the name of the thread, only those people who believe in God are directly relevant to the discussion.

You might have read what I said i.e. "Those who don't believe, but go to church anyway may well be sane."

that's a very long way from all church goers are insane, it's an assertion that at least some are not.

 

I would like to see how you come to the conclusion that all people in church know that the religion is nonsense.

"The sane people who go to church on Sunday know very well that the crap preached to them isn't true,"

OK, that's the non believers suitably described as sane. But the thread isn't about non-believers.

Iif there is one (or more) person in that church who is a believer in God then, they "don't know the delusion (the existence of God) isn't true. " because they believe that the delusion is true.

 

And, by your assertion "Mentally ill people don't know the delusion isn't true. "

So

(The people in church who believe in God) don't know the delusion isn't true.

and

(tacitly, all, since you didn't clarify any subset) Mentally ill people don't know the delusion isn't true.

so you can equate "Mentally ill people " with (The people in church who believe in God) .

 

Re "Revisit my post to which you are responding. I said "If it is broken, then broken we are"."

Speak for yourself.

 

 

And, I see you still have yet to try to answer my question.

 

How would you go about deciding to believe that I am a cabbage white butterfly?

Seriously, what would you do in order to be able to pass the lie detector test while asserting that I'm a butterfly (Pieris brassicae to my friends)?

For the moment, let's assume there is a lie detector that actually works.

Edited July 12, 2013 by John Cuthber