People who believe in god are broken

[Moontanman]

 

They couldn't simply be mistaken? Really?

 

 

Define mistaken... I can be mistaken that I think my car can drive across a rain swollen stream but if i said I think my car could fly across... It looks to me like lie or delusion is the only two possibilities.

 

I know it's anecdotal but I know quite a large number of people who appear to completely rational in every way except for religion, if you were at a party with them you would have no problem liking them, see no reason to think of them as anything but sane people but when the god delusion begins to climb out I'm betting you would be looking to make sure you knew where the exits were...

[Iggy]

Define mistaken...

They've fallen for a magic trick. They've bought into an illusion. They think they saw one thing, but really they saw something different. They aren't lying. They are mistaken.

 

Seems reasonable to me.

[Moontanman]

They've fallen for a magic trick. They've bought into an illusion. They think they saw one thing, but really they saw something different. They aren't lying. They are mistaken.

 

Seems reasonable to me.

 

 

I would say they are only mistaken if they take someone else's word for it, if they see Jesus themselves or feel the hand of god or an alien anal probe they are delusional or lying...

[Iggy]

 

I would say they are only mistaken if they take someone else's word for it, if they see Jesus themselves or feel the hand of god or an alien anal probe they are delusional or lying...

 

Fair enough. I wonder if you believe them when they say they believe in god.

[Moontanman]

 

Fair enough. I wonder if you believe them when they say they believe in god.

 

 

yes, I am sure some people do...

[iNow]

Next you have to grant that when a person says "I saw Jesus", they are telling the truth, in the sense that they aren't lying. Can you do that?

Only if they're referring to their gardener or have recently ingested a hallucinogen or maybe hit their head on something and have been deprived of oxygen. Otherwise, lying or delusional.

[Moontanman]

Um... exactly where is the hand of god... exactly?

[John Cuthber]

Um... exactly where is the hand of god... exactly?

Ask Maradona the footballer.

Meanwhile, back at the topic.

These people are "mistaken" in that they believe that prayer works- though it doesn't. They think their God is wise, yet He's the one who put the serpent in the Garden.

They believe that the Bible is the word of God- even though it contradicts itself.

 

These people should be looked after by someone otherwise they might believe that I 'm going to sell them tower bridge.

[Moontanman]

Ask Maradona the footballer.

Meanwhile, back at the topic.

These people are "mistaken" in that they believe that prayer works- though it doesn't. They think their God is wise, yet He's the one who put the serpent in the Garden.

They believe that the Bible is the word of God- even though it contradicts itself.

 

These people should be looked after by someone otherwise they might believe that I 'm going to sell them tower bridge.

 

 

You're too late, the Evangelical Mega Churches have beaten you to it...

[Iggy]

Only if they're referring to their gardener or have recently ingested a hallucinogen or maybe hit their head on something and have been deprived of oxygen. Otherwise, lying or delusional.

 

You're pulling my leg.

 

I'm at a loss for words...

 

It actually makes a person miss the Hitch. Let me find a quote...

 

I mean those experience are real to them. All ask is that they keep it to themselves, if they possibly can.

I mean, I knew… I knew very well a man named Hugh Montefiore who was one of only two Jewish boys at an English boarding school. Until one day Jesus of Nazareth came into his room and said “Follow me” -- which he did for the rest of his life. He ended up as a very senior member of the Church of England, a bishop in fact. In fact, the Bishop of Birmingham (which by the way is the first line of a limerick [laughter]). And acted throughout as if that was as real to him as anything could be, and wrote some very interesting books indeed. And terribly upset that the only other Jewish boy in that school who was left as the only other Jew [laughter]. But yes, of course I have to grant that these things are real to him.

 

-CH

 

What is "of course" obvious to the Hitch is apparently just lost on most atheists. What are ya gonna do?

[Moontanman]

 

You're pulling my leg.

 

I'm at a loss for words...

 

It actually makes a person miss the Hitch. Let me find a quote...

 

 

What is "of course" obvious to the Hitch is apparently just lost on most atheists. What are ya gonna do?

 

 

I think you missed Hitchen's point, believing something no matter how strongly does not equal knowledge. If you can't show it then you don't know it... Those anal probes are quite real to some people, some live their lives in fear and loathing of sleep when the aliens come... At least we know aliens are a possibility, Jesus appearing to you and you alone is not evidence of anything but a delusion and just like the aliens unless you can show others this Jesus then you are just as broken as those people who dread the aliens and their probes...

 

In the movie Harvey the six foot tall rabbit is as real as as real can be to the guy who sees him, does that make the rabbit real or the man delusional?

Edited August 21, 2013 by Moontanman

[Iggy]

I think you missed Hitchen's point, believing something no matter how strongly does not equal knowledge.

Neither of us were talking about that. I asked a very specific question, and likewise Hitch answered a very specific one very well.

 

I know that you want to say that they're delusional. Probably half the people in your country when asked would say they have a personal relationship with Jesus, and you want to say they're all delusional or lying. It's plainly, blatantly, absurd, but you're locked in. Like the people who think they saw Jesus, you can't change your mind now.

 

We all can't be Christopher Hitchens. You have your opinion. It's fine. By the way, the apostrophe goes after the s.

[Moontanman]

Neither of us were talking about that. I asked a very specific question, and likewise Hitch answered a very specific one very well.

 

I know that you want to say that they're delusional. Probably half the people in your country when asked would say they have a personal relationship with Jesus, and you want to say they're all delusional or lying. It's plainly, blatantly, absurd, but you're locked in. Like the people who think they saw Jesus, you can't change your mind now.

 

We all can't be Christopher Hitchens. You have your opinion. It's fine. By the way, the apostrophe goes after the s.

 

 

I am not going to debate with you over what a dead man may or may not have meant, I ask you again, if i say i have an invisible rabbit that follows me around am I lying or delusional? Is there a third option?

Edited August 21, 2013 by Moontanman

[Iggy]

I am not going to debate with you over what a dead man may or may not have meant,

Good, because I only ever mentioned what he said.

 

I ask you again, if i say i have an invisible rabbit that follows me around am I lying or delusional? Is there a third option?

I'm willing to credit that you aren't delusional because I can follow what you're saying, and it is clear and intelligent enough. The fact that you can't credit Hugh Montefiore of all people with the same is absurd.

[Moontanman]

Good, because I only ever mentioned what he said.

 

I'm willing to credit that you aren't delusional because I can follow what you're saying, and it is clear and intelligent enough. The fact that you can't credit Hugh Montefiore of all people with the same is absurd.

 

 

Appeal to authority is absurd, it doesn't matter who has the invisible friend unless you can show evidence of it you are either lying or delusional by definition... can you give me a third option? If you say the rabbit is real to me you are side stepping the point...

[iNow]

You're pulling my leg.

I'm at a loss for words...

<...>

What is "of course" obvious to the Hitch is apparently just lost on most atheists. What are ya gonna do?

I never said it wasn't real to them. I said they were either lying or delusional. Why do you think something is lost on me, exactly? Do you not see how they can be delusional AND the experience be real to them? That's sort of inherent in the definition of delusional, ain't it?

[Iggy]

it doesn't matter who has the invisible friend unless you can show evidence of it you are either lying or delusional by definition...

Kids are by definition, either lying or delusional because they have an imaginary friend, now. Fantastic!

 

can you give me a third option?

I already did. They are simply mistaken. They've been fooled by a mechanism that is notoriously good at fooling people.

 

It doesn't make them delusional, or liars. Obviously!

[Iggy]

I never said it wasn't real to them. I said they were either lying or delusional.

Why do you think something is lost on me, exactly? Do you not see how they can be delusional AND the experience be real to them? That's sort of inherent in the definition of delusional, ain't it?

That is fair, but, I mean.. It's obvious you're using the word "delusional" in a way that no psychologist or medical professional would ever use it. Someone is mistaken on this particular issue and by default you want to call them delusional and broken.

 

Do you really think that a person can't be simply mistaken about feeling God and seeing Jesus... they either have to be delusional or lying? What other subject would you say that about?

[Moontanman]

That is fair, but, I mean.. It's obvious you're using the word "delusional" in a way that no psychologist or medical professional would ever use it. Someone is mistaken on this particular issue and by default you want to call them delusional and broken.

 

Do you really think that a person can't be simply mistaken about feeling God and seeing Jesus... they either have to be delusional or lying? What other subject would you say that about?

 

 

I would say that about any extraordinary claim that has no empirical evidence to back it up...

[iNow]

That is fair, but, I mean.. It's obvious you're using the word "delusional" in a way that no psychologist or medical professional would ever use it.

Don't be so sure. You are, in fact, quite wrong with your assertion. Have you reviewed the recently released DSM-5? Here's a short overview on the changes made to the definition of delusion.

 

http://imperfectcognitions.blogspot.com/2013/06/delusions-in-dsm-5.html

[Iggy]

Don't be so sure. You are, in fact, quite wrong with your assertion. Have you reviewed the recently released DSM-5? Here's a short overview on the changes made to the definition of delusion.

 

http://imperfectcognitions.blogspot.com/2013/06/delusions-in-dsm-5.html

 

You already quoted it in this thread, and I am sure.

 

It is frankly absurd to insist that everyone who thinks they saw Jesus are either hallucinating, delusional, or lying.

 

Your bias is bleeding all over the place.

[Moontanman]

 

You already quoted it in this thread, and I am sure.

 

It is frankly absurd to insist that everyone who thinks they saw Jesus are either hallucinating, delusional, or lying.

 

Your bias is bleeding all over the place.

 

 

I would say that about any extraordinary claim that has no evidence to back it up.

Both my children had imaginary friends, it's a common delusion with children...

[Iggy]

I would say that about any extraordinary claim that has no evidence to back it up.

And that's the thing you can't get past. In your mind Jesus has "no evidence to back it up", because you've never seen him. In another person's mind, it could be different. But, you can't put yourself in their shoes.

 

To you, the skies are obviously empty, so all these people talking to it must just be mental... delusional (or lying). Because, you have no idea what they're talking about.

 

That's fine. I see where you're coming from. I, likewise, have never seen Jesus and I don't believe in God. I understand.

 

Both my children had imaginary friends, it's a common delusion with children...

You aught to get them some psychological care immediately. I've never had a delusional child, but, wow! I don't envy you that!

[Moontanman]

And that's the thing you can't get past. In your mind Jesus has "no evidence to back it up", because you've never seen him. In another person's mind, it could be different. But, you can't put yourself in their shoes.

 

To you, the skies are obviously empty, so all these people talking to it must just be mental... delusional (or lying). Because, you have no idea what they're talking about.

 

That's fine. I see where you're coming from. I, likewise, have never seen Jesus and I don't believe in God. I understand.

 

You aught to get them some psychological care immediately. I've never had a delusional child, but, wow! I don't envy you that!

 

 

I am open to evidence but anything that can be asserted with no evidence can be dismissed with no evidence, my children like most grew out of their imaginary friends, if they still said they saw their imaginary friends I'd be concerned and assume they were indeed delusional...

[iNow]

And that's the thing you can't get past. In your mind Jesus has "no evidence to back it up", because you've never seen him. In another person's mind, it could be different. But, you can't put yourself in their shoes.

Even if there is evidence of Jesus, there is zero evidence that he was not human or that he was some sort of supernatural deity.