zapatos Posted April 12, 2012 Share Posted April 12, 2012 (edited) So, perhaps the fact that since such horrible standards of evidence are "good enough" for them is what makes them broken? I assume you are talking about the people who believe in the Big Bang? You aren't trolling, are you? Edited April 12, 2012 by zapatos 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iNow Posted April 12, 2012 Author Share Posted April 12, 2012 I'm not even sure what that means, to be perfectly frank with you. What is it to "believe in the big bang?" I'm not here worshiping it or trying to convert my neighbors or telling homosexuals they're going to burn for eternity because of it. I just see it as the best current explanation for the information available to us... even though we really don't know what happened before the Planck epoch. As I said, I think it's a terribly flawed comparison you are making. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Planck_epoch 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zapatos Posted April 12, 2012 Share Posted April 12, 2012 (edited) I'm not even sure what that means, to be perfectly frank with you. What is it to "believe in the big bang?" I'm not here worshiping it or trying to convert my neighbors or telling homosexuals they're going to burn for eternity because of it. I just see it as the best current explanation for the information available to us... even though we really don't know what happened before the Planck epoch. As I said, I think it's a terribly flawed comparison you are making. Belief is the psychological state in which an individual holds a proposition or premise to be true. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Belief 'Belief in the Big Bang' is to hold the proposition of the Big Bang to be true. If you think that 'Belief in God' is equivalent to 'converting one's neighbors and telling homosexuals that they are going to burn for eternity', I can understand your confusion. I think that taking a group as large and diverse as 'those who believe in God' and making a sweeping generalization about them is a terribly flawed and biased idea. Edited April 12, 2012 by zapatos 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iNow Posted April 12, 2012 Author Share Posted April 12, 2012 Okay. No worries. You're obviously in the disagree column then. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zapatos Posted April 12, 2012 Share Posted April 12, 2012 Correct. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrDNA Posted April 12, 2012 Share Posted April 12, 2012 The question itself is broken. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iNow Posted April 12, 2012 Author Share Posted April 12, 2012 Yes. Agree? Disagree? Discuss... is a fatally flawed approach to threaded conversations. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrDNA Posted April 12, 2012 Share Posted April 12, 2012 (edited) ""Yes. Agree? Disagree?"" I thought I was clear that there was not enough information to compute Will Robinson. "Discuss... is a fatally flawed approach to threaded conversations." I disagree. Discussion is always a good thing in a conversation. What do you think you are, a god who doesn't permit discussion? Back to the fatally flawed question at hand: "People who believe in god are broken." In order to agree or disagree, one must first define the question. In particular, the subjects of the question. For example. People: What are people? Are you referring only to humans or legal entities that have some rights of individuals? I want to know! Is commander Data a person or just Star Fleet property?!?! Damn it Jim, I'm a doctor, not a brick layer! believe : A firm faith, an absolute belief, a casual acceptance as truth, an opinion, the mere thought that something is true, a supposition, etc. e.g, a. middle age married couple. "Honey does this dress make me look slim?" "Yes, I believe so Dear". a marginal belief at best. or b. "Honey, would you rather have sex with that pretty 18 year old than me?" "No, I don't believe I would Dear". a lie or false belief or c. Really drunk guy. "I believe I'm going to puke". a certainty. At what level does an idea transform into a belief. Then, at what level does a belief transform into a truth? God: What "god" are you referring to? An idol (eg, a "golden calf" created by man so that he could worship it). The Hebrew God, who created man in his image to worship him? Alah? The belief that god or gods are in everything, rocks, trees, air, ants,...... Mormons, who believe that they become gods when they die (if they wear the right underwear). Broken: Not meeting manufacturers' specifications but still completely functional? Rusted but just on the surface? Rusted through the floor boards. Completely rotten, but still able to be restored to pristine condition and sold at the Barret Jackson Auto Auctions for hundreds of thousands of dollars. Slightly worn but still valuable to shoppers at the Goodwill store? Completely worn out or busted, but still donated to the Goodwill store and written off on ones' taxes as having a near new value? A valuable antiquity? Broken like a relationship between 2 former lovers or dear friends? Just 'broken' in like a baseball glove, which functions much better than a brand new one....one that has not been 'broken' in? Smashed to atoms? Broken like a bone, which grows back stronger than the original bone? Sort of like the fall of man and the coming? What the heck do you mean man?!?! ;-) Edited April 12, 2012 by DrDNA 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doG Posted April 12, 2012 Share Posted April 12, 2012 (edited) "Belief" aside, I see no reason to have 'faith' that there was a big bang or that there are any deities. I do find it reasonable for people to believe that the Big Bang is a reasonable theory based on the observable evidence and the predictions it supports. I do not personally feel the god theory is a reasonable theory and faith that it is absolutely true is flawed. Draw no conclusions before their time... Edited April 12, 2012 by doG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrDNA Posted April 12, 2012 Share Posted April 12, 2012 (edited) I just don't see the focus on the big bang by the counter God argument group. It's sort of like Nazi's arguing against burning Jews really. Up until 65 years or so ago, it was accepted that the universe was static. Einstein said it was his greatest mistake (although I might argue that marrying his cousin was......). Now everyone accepts it as "fact". It was described 4 thousand years ago in genesis. So was evolution for the most part. Even Michio Kaku conceded in 'Hyperspace'; 1994 p 330, that there is a "God of order". Although, te did go to great pains to try to make a distinction between his "God of order" and a "God of miracles". Which he failed at miserably. Add to that the fact that quantum theory and the supernatural are quickly converging. It's only a matter of time. Edited April 12, 2012 by DrDNA Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moontanman Posted April 12, 2012 Share Posted April 12, 2012 I may not be sophisticated enough to say the question is somehow invalid but I know that every debate we have here on SFN puts me further and further into the camp of "Theists are insane" I know they are not all not really crazy but the need to define god with science or to somehow twist ancient documents into saying what science says or demanding that texts like the bible are absolutely true word for word when the world around us easily falsifies that notion is so bizarre to me I am inclined to think they are broken somehow. Giving control of your life to people who without religion thier best efforts would be multi level marketing scammers is a little bit difficult as well. The idea that religion is an infectious meme appeals to me because it suggests these people are not insane but motivated by something that has taken control of them. Religion is a powerful idea, the idea that death is just the beginning of another life of worshiping god, singing hosannas for an eternity is a bit less than appealing except when you compare it to death. The Mormon religious texts are, if you are a man, rather seductive, you get to make your own planets and populate them with your own offspring.... sounds like something that could hold my attention for many many years. Personally I'd rather make whole universes, with laws of physics that allow a Star Trek like civilization to exist. maybe lots of different types of life forms based on things other than carbon that would allow almost all planets to have life... But i am suspicious of things that are too good to be true and God certainly seems like one of those things, like a prince in Africa who it turns out is my great great great great grandfather and I am his only living heir and $1,000,000,000 is waiting for me to pick it up.... yeah sure happens all the time... But if i start my own religion i can get that $1,000,000,000 by revealing the truth of what god wants, yeah, we guys get to make our own universes, god told me this, we guys get to have as many wives as we want, sorry girls but someone has to have the babies and i can't do that, I'd at least make childbirth orgasmic beyond belief, probably have to drop the females IQ points by about 75 or so, they have to be happy and that's the easiest way, make them equal to men not doing it for you? Oh well i am too old for that harem shit anyway... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrDNA Posted April 12, 2012 Share Posted April 12, 2012 Personally I'd rather make whole universes, with laws of physics that allow a Star Trek like civilization to exist. maybe lots of different types of life forms based on things other than carbon that would allow almost all planets to have life... Sounds a lot like making an idol out of a piece of drift wood and worshiping it as a god to me.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xittenn Posted April 12, 2012 Share Posted April 12, 2012 (edited) I may not be sophisticated enough to say the question is somehow invalid but I know that every debate we have here on SFN puts me further and further into the camp of "Theists are insane" I know they are not all not really crazy but the need to define god with science or to somehow twist ancient documents into saying what science says or demanding that texts like the bible are absolutely true word for word when the world around us easily falsifies that notion is so bizarre to me I am inclined to think they are broken somehow. This here is the strongest argument for God's not having any contradicting evidence--can't blame the book, the book is broken. We are broken and so when God speaks to us crap comes out of our pens! It's not the fact of what the book says (although particularly broken theists do often try to cling to such things) but the fact that there is a God. I say these things from a non-theist observational standpoint, that also happens to be broken, so take it as you wish. Edited April 12, 2012 by Xittenn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrDNA Posted April 13, 2012 Share Posted April 13, 2012 .....along those lines of logic...... Hey, dude! This speaker is broken. Let's keep it to show everyone that there is error in the system and to prove our point that the system itself sucks. But go ahead and throw away that perfectly good stereo. We don't need it since the speaker is broken. This really is what they are saying. Don't you think? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xittenn Posted April 13, 2012 Share Posted April 13, 2012 (edited) .....along those lines of logic...... Hey, dude! This speaker is broken. Let's keep it to show everyone that there is error in the system and to prove our point that the system itself sucks. But go ahead and throw away that perfectly good stereo. We don't need it since the speaker is broken. This really is what they are saying. Don't you think? Who me? I'm not sure what you are saying. My premise was that most religions are founded on a certain human inadequacy or state of brokenness. God, for these people, is the enlightened or perfect--non broken--being whom all should strive to be like, and should ask for protection from. What is the perfectly good stereo? What is proof of a bad system? What words are you putting in whose mouth? Why are you talking like a stoned teenager? Are you high? :/ Edited April 13, 2012 by Xittenn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
At just flattened at! Posted April 13, 2012 Share Posted April 13, 2012 There is equally as little proof that everything was created via any other method, and what speculation there is about existence coming into being is a belief in itself, scientists believe is happened like so in some cases, and people with religion believe it happened like so in others. Neither parties are crazy nor wrong, just no-one has any hard proof yet, just beliefs , but have faith and we may find out one day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moontanman Posted April 13, 2012 Share Posted April 13, 2012 There is equally as little proof that everything was created via any other method, and what speculation there is about existence coming into being is a belief in itself, scientists believe is happened like so in some cases, and people with religion believe it happened like so in others. Neither parties are crazy nor wrong, just no-one has any hard proof yet, just beliefs , but have faith and we may find out one day. So, if you believe that what we know about the universe so far you cannot be a religious person??? All science says for sure is we don't have the evidence so far to say how the universe came into being. It's not an atheistic view point it's simply what the evidence points to so far. Could a god have brought the universe into existence? maybe then again maybe not, if you prefer to believe a god brought the universe into existence it doesn't change the evidence of the expansion of the universe, science simply says we don't know, because we don't have any evidence of how the universe came into being, the religious say god did it with no evidence to support that assertion.... science is more honest in my estimation but science does not say god could not have done it. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
At just flattened at! Posted April 13, 2012 Share Posted April 13, 2012 So, if you believe that what we know about the universe so far you cannot be a religious person??? No of-course you can be religious and believe what we know about the universe so far. Just the part about how it all came to be, as in the case of Christianity, Christians believe god made everything. You can't believe that and be open to other theory's can you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xittenn Posted April 13, 2012 Share Posted April 13, 2012 (edited) No of-course you can be religious and believe what we know about the universe so far. Just the part about how it all came to be, as in the case of Christianity, Christians believe god made everything. You can't believe that and be open to other theory's can you. And why not? I can see an argument for the christian God creating the universe and it goes something like "To God a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years is like a day!" Simple case of a bunch of broken people misinterpreting the meaning of a book written by a bunch of broken people. I find it best to not try and eliminate any possibility and I simply respect that there are sides to the story and I choose the one that I like best--I choose to not believe. I like this thread 'cause it asks an interesting question, and although it implies that theists are crazy, it does not assert it because broken =/= crazy and so we are left to interpret our own meaning. ** again I don't believe in a 'God' . . . maybe a groverlord . . . but not a 'God!' http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4005/4359736418_57a4765b43.jpg ^groverlord (maybe more Grover meets Einstein or something, but is fallible and limited to a universe or a set of them!) ^ I only state this to make known my position as I feel it may have relevance to the conversation Edited April 13, 2012 by Xittenn 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
At just flattened at! Posted April 13, 2012 Share Posted April 13, 2012 Because if your religion says God made all existence and you believe that and accept that as truth like a Christian does, how do you believe there was another cause for all existence coming into being? You can't as you already have your answer that you believe to be fact. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xittenn Posted April 13, 2012 Share Posted April 13, 2012 No one knows what exactly created the big bang, that's how! God's paper trail . . . . ** it's not my religion dammit Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
At just flattened at! Posted April 13, 2012 Share Posted April 13, 2012 Think like a Christian, I think you would like it. It ties up lots of things. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moontanman Posted April 13, 2012 Share Posted April 13, 2012 It's quite possible to believe that god is in control of everything through naturalistic methods, it's not God or even religion that opposes science it's creationists who insist that what the bible says has to be true, in effect they claim that either god did things exactly the way that the bible says or there is no god, it's their main claim and it's false. They create the strawman that to believe what science has discovered makes you an atheist, it does not... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Appolinaria Posted April 13, 2012 Share Posted April 13, 2012 What is "broken"? A Nickelback song? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xittenn Posted April 13, 2012 Share Posted April 13, 2012 (edited) Think like a Christian, I think you would like it. It ties up lots of things. If there was a God, I would opt to remain broken and burn . . . . It's quite possible to believe that god is in control of everything through naturalistic methods, it's not God or even religion that opposes science it's creationists who insist that what the bible says has to be true, in effect they claim that either god did things exactly the way that the bible says or there is no god, it's their main claim and it's false. They create the strawman that to believe what science has discovered makes you an atheist, it does not... I know a lot of Christians who oppose this sort of attitude and feel that it would be inconsistent with the teachings of the bible to adopt this view . . . for whatever reason! I would like to point out that the individuals who frequent this forum and call themselves theists are not necessarily representative of the greater public. All online venues are subject to various sorts of aggressive or maligned activity as it allows individuals who might have social problems an outlet! The general consensus that I have seen is Christians believe that there is a God and that his method will become most apparent at a later date! Edited April 13, 2012 by Xittenn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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