Is it possible to get Herpes from a toilet seat?

[Fanghur]

Does anyone know whether it is possible for someone to get Herpes from a toilet seat? I remember watching an episode of House once in which he tricked a guy into admitting he cheated on his wife and got HSV because of it by saying that he in fact could have gotten the virus off of a toilet seat. Now, obviously in the episode it was all a ploy, but I can't help but wonder whether it might be THEORETICALLY possible to acquire a productive HSV infection in that manner.

 

My intuition says that if the MythBusters were ever to put this to the test they would most likely deem it something like 'Plausible but ridiculously unlikely', or something similar. Does anyone know?

[DrDNA]

I think you got it just about right.

There was only a 1 in 140 million chance to win the 650 million dollar lottery last week. Making it statistically unlikely.

Some would say nearly impossible.

But 4 people did.

Edited April 12, 2012 by DrDNA

[JorgeLobo]

Mythbuster is sophomoric contrivance. I'd hardly accept their conclusion as valid.

 

See the following review for persistence on surfaces - http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1564025/?tool=pubmed

Infection doesnt necessarily mean exposure but fomites have been implicated in herpes transmission:

 

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1564025/?tool=pubmed

 

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/6315980

[Ophiolite]

Of course it's possible. The solution is to avoid intercourse while sitting on a toilet seat.

[CaptainPanic]

Of course it's possible. The solution is to avoid intercourse while sitting on a toilet seat.

Awww

[Joatmon]

"Does anyone know whether it is possible for someone to get Herpes from a toilet seat?"

 

It's possible, but it's best to wait until he's finished.

Edited April 12, 2012 by Joatmon

[Fanghur]

OK, let me rephrase my question: Is it possible to get Herpes from a toilet seat in the absence of any sort of sexual activity occurring on said toilet seat?

[JorgeLobo]

http://jvi.asm.org/content/77/13/7696.full

 

says < 1 pfu on mucous membrane as infective dose

 

 

http://jama.ama-assn.org/content/305/14/1441.full

 

Says women shed viruses in genital tract

 

 

 

So one can imagine a scenario that says yes to your question

[Fanghur]

Mythbuster is sophomoric contrivance. I'd hardly accept their conclusion as valid.

 

 

 

Oh, and by the by, to quote Adam Savage: "I reject your reality and substitute my own!"

 

I've watched virtually every MythBusters episode (that's MythBusters, with an 's') and I would have absolutely no problem accepting their conclusions to most of the myths they take on. Granted there have been quite a few episodes that I think they probably could have done more on, but they've never made any claims or conclusions that are not backed by actual testing. And the few times that they have been proven wrong, they accept their fault with equanimity, which is more than I can say for many PhD scientists, I might add.

[DrDNA]

I, for one, will not be a subject in any study that involves a HERPES infested toilet seat -- - -no matter how low the probability.

Edited April 13, 2012 by DrDNA

[JorgeLobo]

Let me help you - Mythbusters practice is to contrive a construct to "test" a reported phenomenon. They make no to validate and probably fail to even understand that, in science, one must validate such constructs. Therefore the term sophomoric.

 

 

It's BS - but glad you enjoy it.

[jimmydasaint]

The OP is a bit problematic IMHO. Although persistence of bacteria and viruses on surfaces such as door handles and banisters etc... has an evidential basis, we still have to consider the important dosage effect of the virus in question and also skin and mucosal immunity as well as the state of the immune system of the person sitting on the seat, amonsgst other factors. The answer would have to be that the chances are high against infection from a toilet seat.

 

Humans have a very powerful non specific arm of the immune system (for example macrophages and neutrophils) which are capable of ingesting foreign materials. Additionally, the specific arm of the immune system, exemplified by the production of antibodies such as IgA and IgM are also associated with mucosal/skin surfaces, IIRC, as a powerful deterrent to the internalisation of viruses.

Edited April 14, 2012 by jimmydasaint

[JorgeLobo]

Dosage - as in mean infective dose? One of the articles cited above offered that < pfu was sufficient in a model. I dont think comments above are so relevant to herpes infection. Humoral imunity requires sufficient exposure to provoke antibody response - with that the indivudal is likely infected. As for effectiveness of macrophage and neutrophil role - suggest you look up herpes and molecular mimcry. http://www.ncbi.nlm....les/PMC1384256/

 

Agree chances for such a fomite-based infection seem very remote but less than immunity would be factors such as survival on toilet surfaces (see: http://jama.ama-assn.org/content/250/22/3081.abstract ) and contact of viruses with mucous membrane

Edited April 15, 2012 by JorgeLobo

[DrDNA]

The answer would have to be that the chances are high against infection from a toilet seat.

I think we have found our test subject.

 

While we are at it, would you also volunteer to be bitten by numerous mosquitos and ticks that have bit several unfortunate AIDS victims?

Edited April 21, 2012 by DrDNA

[jimmydasaint]

Dosage - as in mean infective dose? One of the articles cited above offered that < pfu was sufficient in a model. I dont think comments above are so relevant to herpes infection. Humoral imunity requires sufficient exposure to provoke antibody response - with that the indivudal is likely infected. As for effectiveness of macrophage and neutrophil role - suggest you look up herpes and molecular mimcry. http://www.ncbi.nlm....les/PMC1384256/

 

IMO, dosage, state of immune system, genetic predisposition, interactions with the environment and a host of other factors are involved in transmission of herpesviruses. Looking at the article you cited on very low doses of viruses, down to 0.1 pfu, causing infection in a model system, the authors are circumspect in their findings. Moreover, the results are for gamma herpesvisuses called Epstein Barr Virus and Kaposi sarcoma-causing herperviruses. IIRC, these are commonly transmitted by saliva and not by bottoms on toilet seats. Additonally, the virus was administered by intraperitioneal injection and not swabs. Did you know that?

 

Following intraperitoneal (i.p.) infection with 106 PFU of γHV68, the frequencies of reactivation were 1 in 1,000 for peritoneal cells and 1 in 9,700 for splenocytes at 16 days postinfection (Fig. 1A). Notably, these frequencies did not differ more than fourfold over infecting doses ranging from 0.1 to 106 PFU and were similar to data previously published for 106 PFU (25). That infection was detectable with doses as small as 0.1 PFU (as determined by plaque assay on 3T12 cells) likely reflects the fact that mice are a more sensitive indicator of infection with γHV68 than are cultured 3T12 fibroblasts.

 

Link to Paper

 

I could not find your references on effectiveness of neutrophil and macrophage in viral infection but the large human population would seem to indicate their role in success, as the first arm of the immune system, and in contributing to the survival of the human species.

 

The second study that you cited did show shedding in sites that could possibly be exposed to toilet seats. However, given the sheer variability of social, environmental and genetic factors, it is very difficult to establish if herpesvirus could be spread this way.

 

Participants attended individual educational sessions on HSV-2, were shown pictures of both typical and atypical lesions, and were instructed to inspect the genital region for lesions daily and obtain swabs of their genital area, including any genital lesions. Men were instructed to swab first the penile skin and then the perineum and the perianal areas.9 Women were instructed to insert the swab into the vagina and then swab the vulva, the perineum, and the perianal areas.10​ Swabs were placed into vials containing 1 mL of polymerase chain reaction transport medium and stored at 4°C until laboratory processing. Each participant kept a diary of genital lesions and symptoms.10 Participants visited the clinic every 2 weeks for symptom review and collection of swabs

 

Link to Genital Shedding Paper

Edited April 21, 2012 by jimmydasaint