Surgically change someone's species?

[TransformerRobot]

I'm sure enough of you here have seen James Cameron's Avatar, and remember that a big plot point in the film is Jake Sully being transferred from his original body to that of a Na'avi.

 

That sort of thing has me thinking: Could human beings one day get a surgery that fully changes their species? Yes, it does sound a little far-fetched for today's genetic scientists, but in the distant future it could be possible, but also quite dangerous.

 

I think something like this could be beneficial to those who are terminally ill or have organ failure, so they could get their full consciousness transferred into a new body, maybe even of a different species.

 

Then there's the fact that if we encountered sapient alien life forms who needed our help, or if we needed their help, the process could be done either way so that we'd be able to safely interact in each other's respective environments.

 

Well, now I wish to read your thoughts on such an idea.

[Arete]

H.G. Wells thought of that one too.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Island_of_Doctor_Moreau

 

First, you'd need a solid definition of "species" which has proven elusive: http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0169534706001649

[Sergeant Bilko]

It already happens for many Indian religions! At least not via surgery, but by dying and being reborn into another species.

[TransformerRobot]

It already happens for many Indian religions! At least not via surgery, but by dying and being reborn into another species.

 

I was referring to the idea of doing it without killing anyone.

[The Flaming Goldfish]

As far as I can see, there is no way currently, because you'd have to transfer thoughts/memories to a new body. You also have to take into account that a different species with a different neurological structure would present a huge obstacle. Also, thoughts and memories are not stored as tangible "things" that you can transfer...at the basest level, they are simply electrochemical changes and impulses that we interpret as thoughts or memories. Even if we attempted to transfer through electrochemical bridges, how would we know what the body of the new species (the one we want to transfer to) is interpreting that as?

 

Simply put, assume there are two bodies, A (a human) and B (a different species); even if we find a way to transfer the electrochemical impulses that constitute A's thoughts and memories from A to B, how can we be sure that B interprets/perceives them the same way A does? B could perceive a memory as garbled nonsense, or something entirely different.

[Mrs Zeta]

This is one of the problems associated with 'Consciousness Uploading'. It MAY work if one's consciousness is uploaded (via an intermediary AI device) to another, younger or healthier version of his/hers own brain, which would have been cloned using DNA from the original body. In this case, the structural element of the brain would be the same as the original, so the thoughts could be interpreted in the the same light as in the original brain. This is an intra-species tranfer. It will not work in cases of inter-species tranfer for the reasons given in the above post.

[TransformerRobot]

As far as I can see, there is no way currently, because you'd have to transfer thoughts/memories to a new body. You also have to take into account that a different species with a different neurological structure would present a huge obstacle. Also, thoughts and memories are not stored as tangible "things" that you can transfer...at the basest level, they are simply electrochemical changes and impulses that we interpret as thoughts or memories. Even if we attempted to transfer through electrochemical bridges, how would we know what the body of the new species (the one we want to transfer to) is interpreting that as?

 

Simply put, assume there are two bodies, A (a human) and B (a different species); even if we find a way to transfer the electrochemical impulses that constitute A's thoughts and memories from A to B, how can we be sure that B interprets/perceives them the same way A does? B could perceive a memory as garbled nonsense, or something entirely different.

 

Then what if the surgery was to, instead of turning a human into an alien, give the human more compatible reproductive organs with their alien lover?

[Arete]

Then what if the surgery was to, instead of turning a human into an alien, give the human more compatible reproductive organs with their alien lover?

 

Surgery would not alleviate the genetic incompatibilities between species

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reproductive_isolation#The_genetics_of_reproductive_isolation_barriers

[The Flaming Goldfish]

Surgery would not alleviate the genetic incompatibilities between species

 

http://en.wikipedia....lation_barriers

 

Agreed. One of the major classical definitions of a species is that it is reproductively isolated from other such groups, ie. different species either cannot (or do not) mate; and if they do, they do not produce fertile offspring (example: the offspring of a donkey and a horse is a mule, which is sterile). Whether or not two different groups produce fertile offspring is a simple indication of whether they have enough in common genetically to be considered part of the same species.

[Arete]

Agreed. One of the major classical definitions of a species is that it is reproductively isolated from other such groups, ie. different species either cannot (or do not) mate; and if they do, they do not produce fertile offspring (example: the offspring of a donkey and a horse is a mule, which is sterile). Whether or not two different groups produce fertile offspring is a simple indication of whether they have enough in common genetically to be considered part of the same species.

 

I posted this in another thread explaining the same thing: reproductive isolation is not a hard criterion delimiting species:

 

The evolutionary species concept is the most universally accepted species concept in biology today: http://sysbio.oxford...s=1&ssource=mfc - this concept allows for integrative/dynamic detection and delimitation of species, having defined them as metapopulations with independent evolutionary histories. A number of emergent delimitation methods are currently in various stages of development. There is no universal characteristic by which they are identified - which is a much better reflection of the reality of diversification than relying on a sole characteristic like reproductive isolation. http://www.pnas.org/...4/27/0913022107 http://sysbio.oxford...t/59/1/59.short etc.

 

That said, genetic incompatitbilites generally restrict mating between distantly related species. Simply being able to physically mate with a distantly related species by no means confers an ability to hybridize with said species.

[TransformerRobot]

Agreed. One of the major classical definitions of a species is that it is reproductively isolated from other such groups, ie. different species either cannot (or do not) mate; and if they do, they do not produce fertile offspring (example: the offspring of a donkey and a horse is a mule, which is sterile). Whether or not two different groups produce fertile offspring is a simple indication of whether they have enough in common genetically to be considered part of the same species.

 

Then what good is it to sexualize extra terrestrials (Star Wars, Avatar, etc.) if they're not creatures that humans CAN mate with? Sex sells, but that's close to tormenting the target audience.

[Arete]

Then what good is it to sexualize extra terrestrials (Star Wars, Avatar, etc.) if they're not creatures that humans CAN mate with? Sex sells, but that's close to tormenting the target audience.

 

Things in fictional movies aren't necessarily realistic?

[TransformerRobot]

Things in fictional movies aren't necessarily realistic?

 

Philosophically a lot of them are (X-Men, To Kill a Mockingbird, and Shilo to name a few).

 

Anyway, to get back on topic, if we can't change the species of an individual through genetic engineering or surgery, then how can there be a romantic relationship between a human and an alien like in Avatar?

 

Things in fictional movies aren't necessarily realistic?

 

Philosophically a lot of them are (X-Men, To Kill a Mockingbird, and Shilo to name a few).

 

Anyway, to get back on topic, if we can't change the species of an individual through genetic engineering or surgery, then how can there be a romantic relationship between a human and an alien like in Avatar?

[CharonY]

Outside movies there isn't and the likelihood is probably the same as building up a romantic relationship with slime mold or fruit bats. Considering that movie and comic characters are used as a basis of discussion, I am pretty sure that it belongs to the speculations forum.

Edited April 25, 2012 by CharonY

[TransformerRobot]

That thing about a fruit bat and mold is a bit of an exaggeration there.

 

If we can't make humans biologically capable of mating with alien sapients, then would it be more feasible to create a psyonic link between a human and an alien "avatar" as they called it?

[CharonY]

Why should aliens be even remotely humanoid? In fact, the chances are extremely high that we will have much more in common with fruit bats rather than any speculative aliens.

[TransformerRobot]

Well we can't possibly be the ONLY humanoid species. By humanoid, of course, I mean like this: