underwatter city

[dragonstar57]

I was wondering what kinds of things would be required for an underwater city such as dimensions maximum feasible depth maximum feasible height minimum size etc and what kind of general problems would need to be eliminated and possible solutions.

ps. I mean this a beginning of a general discussion so if you have any ideas please share even if they don't address these specific items

Edited April 20, 2012 by dragonstar57

[Sato]

The dome would probably need a depressurizer to accommodate the depth, some source of oxygen(either pumps or maybe electrolysis of the water), and a lot of structural support.

[InigoMontoya]

Not enough data.

 

How self sufficient must the city be? Can they bring in food from an outside source? Electricity? What are the logistical ground rules?

 

How many people are required? Clearly nobody calls a modern nuclear submarine an underwater city so you're obviously looking at more than the hundred or so that crew a boomer, but how many? And what is their motivation for living there? Are we talking about an underwater mining colony where life sucks, but people endure because pay is awesome or are we talking about a resort where life is amazing and people pay great sums to be there?

 

 

 

Aside: My own "mine colony" comment made me realize that such a "city" might make an EXCELLENT prison. Don't bother trying to tunnel out, boys....

Edited April 20, 2012 by InigoMontoya

[dragonstar57]

Not enough data.

 

How self sufficient must the city be? Can they bring in food from an outside source? Electricity? What are the logistical ground rules?

 

How many people are required? Clearly nobody calls a modern nuclear submarine an underwater city so you're obviously looking at more than the hundred or so that crew a boomer, but how many? And what is their motivation for living there? Are we talking about an underwater mining colony where life sucks, but people endure because pay is awesome or are we talking about a resort where life is amazing and people pay great sums to be there?

 

 

 

Aside: My own "mine colony" comment made me realize that such a "city" might make an EXCELLENT prison. Don't bother trying to tunnel out, boys....

i would say a minimum of 8000 people with hopefully higher pay but equal living conditions to a small town

motivation would be better pay and the coolness of living under water.

the thinking is that it would allow for access to resources that are easier to get from the seabed

mining resources from the sea bed farming fish and algae tourism and deep diving. and perhaps submarine rides to see schools of fish.

[InigoMontoya]

Well, consider that an aircraft carrier has a crew that's just under 6,000. So you're talking about 25% larger than an aircraft carrier to live in absolutely deplorable conditions. Want population densities that aren't best described as inhumane, then you're going to want at least 4-5 times that size. So... Call it 4.5 * 1.25 = 5.6X the size of a Nimitz class aircraft carrier. While you wouldn't have fancy weapons, you would have all sorts of fancy construction requirements so lacking better data, I'll guess that the cost per person would be comparable... So for about $25B you could build your city. *IF* you were building your city in a shipyard and then sinking it.

 

If, on the other hand, you have visions of building it on site? I'd bet you're talking $100B.

[dragonstar57]

Well, consider that an aircraft carrier has a crew that's just under 6,000. So you're talking about 25% larger than an aircraft carrier to live in absolutely deplorable conditions. Want population densities that aren't best described as inhumane, then you're going to want at least 4-5 times that size. So... Call it 4.5 * 1.25 = 5.6X the size of a Nimitz class aircraft carrier. While you wouldn't have fancy weapons, you would have all sorts of fancy construction requirements so lacking better data, I'll guess that the cost per person would be comparable... So for about $25B you could build your city. *IF* you were building your city in a shipyard and then sinking it.

 

If, on the other hand, you have visions of building it on site? I'd bet you're talking $100B.

this might sound dumb for cost cuting but I was thinking that a simple submersible rc craft with a manipulator as long as it could use a welder and a drill could handle most of the construction.

so it wouldn't require labor cost just the materials.

[InigoMontoya]

Dream on.

 

A submersible capable of doing any sort of heavy construction is not going to be cheap, easy, or simple. Look at the money that goes into remote submersibles now and all they generally do is take pictures.

Edited April 21, 2012 by InigoMontoya

[dragonstar57]

Dream on.

 

A submersible capable of doing any sort of heavy construction is not going to be cheap, easy, or simple. Look at the money that goes into remote submersibles now and all they generally do is take pictures.

the manipulator is simple...all it has to do is pick things up and place them then weld them in place

the camera is simple...

the ballast system is relatively simple...

propulsion simple....

finial patent: valuable

hardest part sounds like finding a way to avoid using an AI program for the control because of the water blocking radio

[InigoMontoya]

Out of curiousity... Exactly how much background do you have in marine systems and/or the engineering of LARGE systems?

 

'Cause for you to say it's all so very simple, you're either a genius or naive on a scale that boggles the imagination. Ever watch somebody align a large fixture for welding? It can take *days* to get everything set up right before you can weld something BIG. And now you want to do it remotely, while fighting ocean currents, and in an environment where simply measuring things to make sure you have the aligned correctly is non-trivial? And if you screw any of it up, people are likely to die at some point in the future? And you think this will be easy?

Edited April 21, 2012 by InigoMontoya

[dragonstar57]

Out of curiousity... Exactly how much background do you have in marine systems and/or the engineering of LARGE systems?

 

'Cause for you to say it's all so very simple, you're either a genius or naive on a scale that boggles the imagination. Ever watch somebody align a large fixture for welding? It can take *days* to get everything set up right before you can weld something BIG. And now you want to do it remotely, while fighting ocean currents, and in an environment where simply measuring things to make sure you have the aligned correctly is non-trivial? And if you screw any of it up, people are likely to die at some point in the future? And you think this will be easy?

I was speaking relatively it would be complicated as hell but I doubt it would be mulch-billion dollar complicated. (

perhaps several hundred million complicated...? (ntm it might be possible for whoever builds this to con a government into footing the design costs if they can get them to commission something like that)

either way 100 billion seems higher than it would cost.

out of curiosity how feasible would it be do build it on the surface over the finial site floating and then sink it when completed.

that would simplify some things a little

Edited April 23, 2012 by dragonstar57

[InigoMontoya]

out of curiosity how feasible would it be do build it on the surface over the finial site floating and then sink it when completed.

That's the ONLY way I see it being feasible. Even then, I see it as prohibitively expensive (I stand by the $25B number for your city build on the surface and floated to the final site). A Nimitz class carrier costs about $4.5B and you're talking something that is on the order of 5X larger AND has to withstand being 400' under water for extensive periods of time (keep in mind, carriers get pulled out of the water periodically for maintenance thereby allowing anti-corrosion repairs and such that aren't likely to be available to a permanent city... You'll have to use 'better' tech up front and that co$t$.).

Edited April 24, 2012 by InigoMontoya

[InigoMontoya]

As another data point, I just looked up the recently famous Costa Concordia (cruise ship for those that haven't been watching the news in recent months).

 

Crew + Passengers is a bit under 5,000.

 

Cost to manufacture was $570M. One thing to keep in mind though is that as a cruise ship, it doesn't have working spaces for most of those people. They're passengers just kickin' it. For a city, you need room for industry as well. I figure you'll need to (at least) double the volume per person to give everyone a place for their job (whatever it may be). You'll also need to be about 60% more people to make your 8,000. Assuming similar costs per person.... You're talking about just shy of $2B.

 

So using two different starting points, you're talking about somewhere between $2B and $25B. It should, however, be noted that the $2B number is certainly low as it does not account for any "special" construction as would be required to make an underwater city. A carrier has lots of specialized construction to make it a warship so I (lacking better data) just figured you could have a 1 for 1 conversion between "money spent to make her a warship" and "money spent to make her submarine." But the cruise ship has no such obvious fudge factor to account for increased construction complexity and the like.

 

Thus, I would see the $2B as a basement. No way in hell are you making it for less.

[CaptainPanic]

Thus, I would see the $2B as a basement. No way in hell are you making it for less.

Your value of $ 2 billion is pretty close to what an on-shore town of 8000 people would cost! Assuming that a house costs a modest $150,000, 8,000 of such homes cost $ 1.2 billion, leaving only 800 million for all your community buildings, companies, shops, roads/infrastructure, energy, water, etc. Remember that a cabin on a cruise ship is pretty damn small compared to a real house. Based on this comment, I would guesstimate the costs to be a lot higher.

 

And while your city would require no propulsion, it would require quite a bit of engineering. Climate systems would be one concern, but some decent docking system that allows people to come and go is another. So, that cruise ship is a fair comparison.

 

So, yeah, I agree that 2 billion would be a basement value.

[The Flaming Goldfish]

i would say a minimum of 8000 people with hopefully higher pay but equal living conditions to a small town

motivation would be better pay and the coolness of living under water.

the thinking is that it would allow for access to resources that are easier to get from the seabed

mining resources from the sea bed farming fish and algae tourism and deep diving. and perhaps submarine rides to see schools of fish.

 

I'm not by any means an expert on engineering, but just through logic a few more things suggest themselves that have not been mentioned much yet:

1. You'd need some way to bring in huge amounts of food and water without damaging local flora/fauna. I'm assuming there will be some food salvage from the local environment but you can't just rely on seafood. It's not all encompassing (nutritionally), and it doesn't taste very good after a while. You'd also need to simulate sunlight to a degree, as it is somewhat beneficial to human health.
2. You'd need some way to get rid of a large amount of waste in some way without damaging local flora/fauna. Keep in mind this includes gaseous CO₂ and the like.
3. You'd need to have a highly sophisticated hospital there, with facilities for any imaginable emergency. I mean, this hospital would need to be completely and totally self-sufficient in almost every respect, because in the event of a disease outbreak the city would go under quarantine. In the event a patient comes in with serious trauma or a time-sensitive health problem, they wouldn't have the time or physical strength to be hauled to the surface. Every problem would have to be treated locally. Also, tying in to no. 2, you'd need to find some way to get all the biohazardous waste and chemical waste out of there safely, again without damaging local flora and fauna.
   • Supplementary to no. 3, how will you treat disease in the city? The briny deep contains pathogens and microbes that don't show their faces here and that are rarely seen in hospitals today.

[*]This one's a major one: you'd have to have some sort of measure that would protect the city in the event that the structural integrity of the outer barrier is compromised. Not sure exactly what kind of barrier you are thinking of to keep water out, but obviously it has to be air and watertight. Beyond that, you need some sort of secondary barrier - in the event the main barrier fails, this secondary structure must be able to withstand not only the crushing pressure of tonnes of water suddenly coming down on it, but also of the pieces of the first barrier. What would happen if a boat sank or something, crashing into the main barrier and a piece of it pierced the second one, creating a small perforation that widened due to the sheer weight of the water?[*]The city would have to be able to independently acquire all the raw materials for its functions. In your earlier post, you talk about simplicity/complexity of assembling the city, but keep in mind this city would be underwater, isolated from the rest of the world, permanently. It's not exactly easy to haul a city's worth of raw materials down to the seabed. Even if you do it, what would happen if there was some sort of natural disaster or emergency at the surface that disrupted the supply chain?

• Supplementary to no. 5, your city would have to have the facilities required to turn those raw materials into all the products necessary for everyday life without generating waste that would detrimentally impact the city's long-term survivability or the environment the city is in.

Overall, I think a project like this would go well above the billion dollar mark, possibly into the trillion dollar mark. Where would you find the money and the raw materials? Just some things to think about. By all means, correct me if I am wrong or point out any solutions you might see.

[Dekan]

I'm not by any means an expert on engineering, but just through logic a few more things suggest themselves that have not been mentioned much yet:

1. You'd need some way to bring in huge amounts of food and water without damaging local flora/fauna. I'm assuming there will be some food salvage from the local environment but you can't just rely on seafood. It's not all encompassing (nutritionally), and it doesn't taste very good after a while. You'd also need to simulate sunlight to a degree, as it is somewhat beneficial to human health.
2. You'd need some way to get rid of a large amount of waste in some way without damaging local flora/fauna. Keep in mind this includes gaseous CO₂ and the like.
3. You'd need to have a highly sophisticated hospital there, with facilities for any imaginable emergency. I mean, this hospital would need to be completely and totally self-sufficient in almost every respect, because in the event of a disease outbreak the city would go under quarantine. In the event a patient comes in with serious trauma or a time-sensitive health problem, they wouldn't have the time or physical strength to be hauled to the surface. Every problem would have to be treated locally. Also, tying in to no. 2, you'd need to find some way to get all the biohazardous waste and chemical waste out of there safely, again without damaging local flora and fauna.
   • Supplementary to no. 3, how will you treat disease in the city? The briny deep contains pathogens and microbes that don't show their faces here and that are rarely seen in hospitals today.

This one's a major one: you'd have to have some sort of measure that would protect the city in the event that the structural integrity of the outer barrier is compromised. Not sure exactly what kind of barrier you are thinking of to keep water out, but obviously it has to be air and watertight. Beyond that, you need some sort of secondary barrier - in the event the main barrier fails, this secondary structure must be able to withstand not only the crushing pressure of tonnes of water suddenly coming down on it, but also of the pieces of the first barrier. What would happen if a boat sank or something, crashing into the main barrier and a piece of it pierced the second one, creating a small perforation that widened due to the sheer weight of the water?<LI>The city would have to be able to independently acquire all the raw materials for its functions. In your earlier post, you talk about simplicity/complexity of assembling the city, but keep in mind this city would be underwater, isolated from the rest of the world, permanently. It's not exactly easy to haul a city's worth of raw materials down to the seabed. Even if you do it, what would happen if there was some sort of natural disaster or emergency at the surface that disrupted the supply chain?

• Supplementary to no. 5, your city would have to have the facilities required to turn those raw materials into all the products necessary for everyday life without generating waste that would detrimentally impact the city's long-term survivability or the environment the city is in.

Overall, I think a project like this would go well above the billion dollar mark, possibly into the trillion dollar mark. Where would you find the money and the raw materials? Just some things to think about. By all means, correct me if I am wrong or point out any solutions you might see.

 

Flaming Goldfish, aren't you showing a rather negative attitude towards new projects? Suppose your attitude had been adopted by the USA in the 1960s - towards Project Apollo? Like - "It costs too much - what if the capsule implodes - suppose it gets hit by a meteorite - what if a crew-member gets appendicitis - what if the vasty deep of Space contains unknown pathogens and microbes, which turn the crew into plague-bearers on return to Earth"?

 

Such faint-heartedness seems deplorable. To address your specific objections to Dragonstar's imaginative undersea city project:

 

1. The city would get its food, by catching fish and harvesting seaweed.

 

2. The city would release human waste into the sea. There, ocean currents would quickly dilute the waste into harmlessness. In fact the waste would probably be beneficial, as it would fertilise marine life around the city.

 

3. The city would have a hospital, fully equipped to treat any resident who fell ill.

 

As for the city's energy needs, these would be met by a nuclear reactor. Probably located at some distance from the city itself - the seawater would provide an excellent radiation-shield.

 

So, are there any real obstacles to the creation of an underwater city - except lack of will?

[InigoMontoya]

You'd need some way to bring in huge amounts of food and water without damaging local flora/fauna.

Which really isn't a big deal. As I mentioned in the other thread, you could just have an elevator that goes to the surface. Beyond that, it's not much more difficult than supplying Catalina Island (population 4,000ish) and nobody gives that one so much as a second thought.

 

You'd need some way to get rid of a large amount of waste in some way without damaging local flora/fauna. Keep in mind this includes gaseous CO₂ and the like.

A blender, a pump, and a pipe. Easy.

 

And your elevator superstructure could just as easily include some large air handling equipment. Do it right and have two elevators separated by 100 meters or so and you could do intake on one side and exhaust on the other. Fresh air aplenty.

 

You'd need to have a highly sophisticated hospital there, with facilities for any imaginable emergency. I mean, this hospital would need to be completely and totally self-sufficient in almost every respect, because in the event of a disease outbreak the city would go under quarantine. In the event a patient comes in with serious trauma or a time-sensitive health problem, they wouldn't have the time or physical strength to be hauled to the surface.

And this one is why I respond... As one who grew up in a remote town with a population of 14k... We just accepted that if we got hurt too badly, we were going to die. You don't *HAVE* to have a highly sophisticated hospital. You just have to accept that the level of injury/illness that results in death is a bit lower than if you live next door to a trauma center.

 

Also, tying in to no. 2, you'd need to find some way to get all the biohazardous waste and chemical waste out of there safely, again without damaging local flora and fauna.

An incinerator. Easy.

 

This one's a major one: you'd have to have some sort of measure that would protect the city in the event that the structural integrity of the outer barrier is compromised. Not sure exactly what kind of barrier you are thinking of to keep water out, but obviously it has to be air and watertight.

Another easy one. Just treat it like any submarine or warship today. Lots o' water tight doors that aren't simply left open for the heck of it.

 

The city would have to be able to independently acquire all the raw materials for its functions. In your earlier post, you talk about simplicity/complexity of assembling the city, but keep in mind this city would be underwater, isolated from the rest of the world, permanently.

No more or less than any other city. The city I live in has a lot of metal buildings, but I'm not aware of any steel mills around here.... And why would the isolation have to be permanent?

 

Even if you do it, what would happen if there was some sort of natural disaster or emergency at the surface that disrupted the supply chain?

The same kinds of things that happens to small towns today if there's a natural disaster that disrupts the supply chain.

 

Don't get me wrong, I don't see an underwater city as feasible, but the reasons are primarily associated with cost. The technical challenges absolutely are solvable as evidenced by the existence of the modern nuclear submarine. In the simplest case, you could just build 500 subs and park them on the bottom right next to each other. Now put in some "tunnels" to get from one sub to another... Voila, underwater city!

[The Flaming Goldfish]

Flaming Goldfish, aren't you showing a rather negative attitude towards new projects? Suppose your attitude had been adopted by the USA in the 1960s - towards Project Apollo? Like - "It costs too much - what if the capsule implodes - suppose it gets hit by a meteorite - what if a crew-member gets appendicitis - what if the vasty deep of Space contains unknown pathogens and microbes, which turn the crew into plague-bearers on return to Earth"?

 

Such faint-heartedness seems deplorable. To address your specific objections to Dragonstar's imaginative undersea city project:

 

1. The city would get its food, by catching fish and harvesting seaweed.

 

2. The city would release human waste into the sea. There, ocean currents would quickly dilute the waste into harmlessness. In fact the waste would probably be beneficial, as it would fertilise marine life around the city.

 

3. The city would have a hospital, fully equipped to treat any resident who fell ill.

 

As for the city's energy needs, these would be met by a nuclear reactor. Probably located at some distance from the city itself - the seawater would provide an excellent radiation-shield.

 

So, are there any real obstacles to the creation of an underwater city - except lack of will?

 

Sorry, I didn't mean to come off as negative or disparaging. My intention was not to say it was impossible or to discourage Dragonstar, but rather to just point out some things that would need to be taken into consideration. I'm simply trying to offer another perspective with some things to take into account when planning it.

 

Which really isn't a big deal. As I mentioned in the other thread, you could just have an elevator that goes to the surface. Beyond that, it's not much more difficult than supplying Catalina Island (population 4,000ish) and nobody gives that one so much as a second thought.

 

 

A blender, a pump, and a pipe. Easy.

 

And your elevator superstructure could just as easily include some large air handling equipment. Do it right and have two elevators separated by 100 meters or so and you could do intake on one side and exhaust on the other. Fresh air aplenty.

 

 

And this one is why I respond... As one who grew up in a remote town with a population of 14k... We just accepted that if we got hurt too badly, we were going to die. You don't *HAVE* to have a highly sophisticated hospital. You just have to accept that the level of injury/illness that results in death is a bit lower than if you live next door to a trauma center.

 

 

An incinerator. Easy.

 

 

Another easy one. Just treat it like any submarine or warship today. Lots o' water tight doors that aren't simply left open for the heck of it.

 

 

No more or less than any other city. The city I live in has a lot of metal buildings, but I'm not aware of any steel mills around here.... And why would the isolation have to be permanent?

 

 

The same kinds of things that happens to small towns today if there's a natural disaster that disrupts the supply chain.

 

Don't get me wrong, I don't see an underwater city as feasible, but the reasons are primarily associated with cost. The technical challenges absolutely are solvable as evidenced by the existence of the modern nuclear submarine. In the simplest case, you could just build 500 subs and park them on the bottom right next to each other. Now put in some "tunnels" to get from one sub to another... Voila, underwater city!

 

True, true. Like I said above, just adding some things to take into account.

[dragonstar57]

I think the primary problem is the incentive It is hypothetically possible to a government to fund a large project such as this but you would first have to convince them that it is worth it. the secondary problem would be the economics of living there it would have to make economic sense for people to live there rather than conventional cities.

as for convincing a government it is necessary perhaps I would think it would make an excellent testbed for what ever systems they want to use on the first colony on

mars/the moon and second I would think it would make it might teach some important lessons about how to handle raising waters that threaten conventional cities (perhaps we could just dome them over.

also such a location would be (imo) very secure from a nuclear strike should a rouge nation acquire icbm's because 1.they would most likely target conventional cities first 2. because they have a large amount of water to act as a shield

but after all the problems brought up I have to agree 2b min and most likely more.

ps. where would the drinking water come from? I suppose it could be desalinated but that adds a lot more $$$ to the cost

[the asinine cretin]

I've been on a kick lately with the books of Erik Seedhouse and figured I'd throw this out there.

"

Ocean Outpost is an undersea roadmap charting the future of man's exploration of Earth's last vast unexplored territory. To realize the goal of an extended human presence underwater a wealth of new technologies will be developed, such as new manned and unmanned submersibles, advanced propulsion systems, underwater rescue systems, decompression methods, and revolutionary physiological intervention strategies ranging from liquid ventilation to artificial gills. Some technologies will require quantum leaps forward in innovation, while others may appear even more daunting."

Ocean Outpost: The Future of Humans Living Underwater

 

P.S. (If I may be allowed a sci-fi indulgence.) Maybe the aquatic ape concept will become true after all. I think it would be neat. A bit of allopatric speciation leading to Homo aquaticus. Well, not really. I imagine there would be a subspecies of cyborg human capable of living underwater. Ideally it would be reversible. If not, still cool, but not exactly evolution by natural selection. hehe.

[jonnyquest]

As another data point, I just looked up the recently famous Costa Concordia (cruise ship for those that haven't been watching the news in recent months).

 

Crew + Passengers is a bit under 5,000.

 

Cost to manufacture was $570M. One thing to keep in mind though is that as a cruise ship, it doesn't have working spaces for most of those people. They're passengers just kickin' it. For a city, you need room for industry as well. I figure you'll need to (at least) double the volume per person to give everyone a place for their job (whatever it may be). You'll also need to be about 60% more people to make your 8,000. Assuming similar costs per person.... You're talking about just shy of $2B.

 

 

and this is roughly based on the cost of a cruise ship. that floats. therefore doesn't need the structural integrity of something capable of sustaining pressures of deep ocean. and all the systems (oxygen, plumbing, electrical, etc) to support human life. there will also need to be space accounted for growing food, as the cost and logistics of getting food delivered would be ridiculous.