HELP: What's with the Brits??!!??

[ted_marx]

I'm an American and work for a European company in the US office. We have Sr. Mgmt from England over here and a number of British expats working under them. There's an enormous amount of nationalistic tension between them and the Americans.

 

For quite some time I stayed on the sidelines of this feud because I saw the Americans as being more than equally guilty of progressing this, plus, I've worked in an international environment for quite some time and realize how stupid and destructive this nonsense is.

 

One of the things that really tees off my US counterparts is that while the essence of an ex-pat package (and it's a nice one at this company) holds that it gives the visitors an opportunty to learn a new culture, the Brits in our group don't take advantage of this. There are six or so of them and they've rented houses in the same expensive neighborhood on the firm's tab, their families all socialize together exclusively, etc. To many of the Americans, it seems like these people are living on an all-expense-paid vacation rather than a cultural bonding expedition. Another sore spot is that 100% of the sr. mgmt is British even though that country accounts for only a small percentage of our company's total revenue. This is empirically correct: when one ex-pat leaves to go back to England, another moves over. No Americans in our group have been promoted in three plus years. Finally, there's a secretive club-like culture among them -- not just the sr mgrs but their British peers -- where the Brits know all the inside info well before the Americans.

 

Again, I've witnessed all this and while it's factually correct and undeniable, I've tried to not be harshly critical. "What's the use?" I figured. Recently, though, I became aware that the chief Brit in this "club", a sr. VP, has been sending email jokes around amongst only the Brits, and these jokes are ruthlessly critical of the American lifestyle. I've seen two of these emails; they were passed to me by a Brit who've I've befriended.

 

This was the final straw for me: it's one thing to move to another country and isolate yourself from that cutlure, but it's entirely inappropriate to do so and then on top of that, make fun of that culture while not making an effort to fit in. Frankly it's really upset me.

 

I'd be curious to hear perspectives from any Brits on this board about some thoughts as to how this could be happening, or from others who've worked with Brits. My thoughts are:

 

*I think relative to our culture, the British culture has a more defined class system within the UK. The English, for example, make no attempt to hide that they find the Welsh inferior.

 

*Aside from that, and aside from the obvious royalty stuff, there's also a more rigid definition of high society vs. low society based on the family into which you are born, and the rags-to-riches stuff is very uncommon relative to what we often see in the US.

 

*Put the two together and perhaps it's not surprising that they perhaps dismiss those from other countries as being inferior, even if subconsciously.

 

One final thought going back to the email thing. I had a friend from another company who happens to be British, and he's spent the last decade or so of his life jumping from one ex-pat package to another with his family. They absolutely love this lifestyle. Once he told me a story of his 2 yrs in Saudi Arabia and how he witnessed a beheading as part of a public execution. When I asked him how he could stand living in such a rigid society without worrying he'd commit some unkown cultural sin with horrific consequences, his reply was quite memorable. "It's simple," he said. "Everyone in every culture has some basic understandings of how people should behave. So long as you respect people and respect these standards, you're fine no matter where you go."

 

I'd be really interested to share this email story with him to see how he reacts, but unfortunately I've lost touch with him. Lord knows where he is these days but I suspect he'd be appalled at the behavior of his fellow Brits in this case.

 

Thoughts on this -- all of it -- appreciated.

 

Thanks,

 

Ted

[ted_marx]

I'm an American and work for a European company in the US office. We have Sr. Mgmt from England over here and a number of British expats working under them. There's an enormous amount of nationalistic tension between them and the Americans.

 

For quite some time I stayed on the sidelines of this feud because I saw the Americans as being more than equally guilty of progressing this, plus, I've worked in an international environment for quite some time and realize how stupid and destructive this nonsense is.

 

One of the things that really tees off my US counterparts is that while the essence of an ex-pat package (and it's a nice one at this company) holds that it gives the visitors an opportunty to learn a new culture, the Brits in our group don't take advantage of this. There are six or so of them and they've rented houses in the same expensive neighborhood on the firm's tab, their families all socialize together exclusively, etc. To many of the Americans, it seems like these people are living on an all-expense-paid vacation rather than a cultural bonding expedition. Another sore spot is that 100% of the sr. mgmt is British even though that country accounts for only a small percentage of our company's total revenue. This is empirically correct: when one ex-pat leaves to go back to England, another moves over. No Americans in our group have been promoted in three plus years. Finally, there's a secretive club-like culture among them -- not just the sr mgrs but their British peers -- where the Brits know all the inside info well before the Americans.

 

Again, I've witnessed all this and while it's factually correct and undeniable, I've tried to not be harshly critical. "What's the use?" I figured. Recently, though, I became aware that the chief Brit in this "club", a sr. VP, has been sending email jokes around amongst only the Brits, and these jokes are ruthlessly critical of the American lifestyle. I've seen two of these emails; they were passed to me by a Brit who've I've befriended.

 

This was the final straw for me: it's one thing to move to another country and isolate yourself from that cutlure, but it's entirely inappropriate to do so and then on top of that, make fun of that culture while not making an effort to fit in. Frankly it's really upset me.

 

I'd be curious to hear perspectives from any Brits on this board about some thoughts as to how this could be happening, or from others who've worked with Brits. My thoughts are:

 

*I think relative to our culture, the British culture has a more defined class system within the UK. The English, for example, make no attempt to hide that they find the Welsh inferior.

 

*Aside from that, and aside from the obvious royalty stuff, there's also a more rigid definition of high society vs. low society based on the family into which you are born, and the rags-to-riches stuff is very uncommon relative to what we often see in the US.

 

*Put the two together and perhaps it's not surprising that they perhaps dismiss those from other countries as being inferior, even if subconsciously.

 

One final thought going back to the email thing. I had a friend from another company who happens to be British, and he's spent the last decade or so of his life jumping from one ex-pat package to another with his family. They absolutely love this lifestyle. Once he told me a story of his 2 yrs in Saudi Arabia and how he witnessed a beheading as part of a public execution. When I asked him how he could stand living in such a rigid society without worrying he'd commit some unkown cultural sin with horrific consequences, his reply was quite memorable. "It's simple," he said. "Everyone in every culture has some basic understandings of how people should behave. So long as you respect people and respect these standards, you're fine no matter where you go."

 

I'd be really interested to share this email story with him to see how he reacts, but unfortunately I've lost touch with him. Lord knows where he is these days but I suspect he'd be appalled at the behavior of his fellow Brits in this case.

 

Thoughts on this -- all of it -- appreciated.

 

Thanks,

 

Ted

[xXxAuroraxXx]

And, none of the American employees have any sort of prejudice agaisnt their British co-workers?

[xXxAuroraxXx]

And, none of the American employees have any sort of prejudice agaisnt their British co-workers?

[ted_marx]

"For quite some time I stayed on the sidelines of this feud because I saw the Americans as being more than equally guilty of progressing this"

[ted_marx]

"For quite some time I stayed on the sidelines of this feud because I saw the Americans as being more than equally guilty of progressing this"

[mattd]

The British are just jealous of us, and wish their Rolling Stones were as good as our Beatles.

[mattd]

The British are just jealous of us, and wish their Rolling Stones were as good as our Beatles.

[Sayonara]

*I think relative to our culture, the British culture has a more defined class system within the UK. The English, for example, make no attempt to hide that they find the Welsh inferior.

While I am sure they must exist, I have never met anyone who believed themselves superior to the Welsh. There are possibly a lot more people who see our society as being superior to the society in Wales (as an example), but that at least is quantifiable.

 

Generally people who actually think they are - as an individual - superior to an entire society aren't worth talking to.

 

 

*Aside from that, and aside from the obvious royalty stuff, there's also a more rigid definition of high society vs. low society based on the family into which you are born, and the rags-to-riches stuff is very uncommon relative to what we often see in the US.

That attitude has been nearly dead for along time. The only people who still cling to it are those who have most to lose by its disappearance, i.e. extremely rich land owners.

[Sayonara]

*I think relative to our culture, the British culture has a more defined class system within the UK. The English, for example, make no attempt to hide that they find the Welsh inferior.

While I am sure they must exist, I have never met anyone who believed themselves superior to the Welsh. There are possibly a lot more people who see our society as being superior to the society in Wales (as an example), but that at least is quantifiable.

 

Generally people who actually think they are - as an individual - superior to an entire society aren't worth talking to.

 

 

*Aside from that, and aside from the obvious royalty stuff, there's also a more rigid definition of high society vs. low society based on the family into which you are born, and the rags-to-riches stuff is very uncommon relative to what we often see in the US.

That attitude has been nearly dead for along time. The only people who still cling to it are those who have most to lose by its disappearance, i.e. extremely rich land owners.

[atinymonkey]

When any group is set to work, they face new problems and new challenges. Unfortunately, people also tend to seek comfort zones from which to approach new problems from. In this case, it seems that the British contingent have created a British community for a comfort zone. This is quite understandable, as the American culture is distinctly unsettling to most British people, and vica versa. The problem is that on the surface the cultures are the same, but the subtle differences are enough to throw you off balance. Subconsciously, the British are probably minimizing the disruption to there normal processes and retreating to a 'safer' environment. It's something you see all over businesses, if groups of people move from department to department they tend to stick together in isolated units.

 

I wouldn't take the animosity too seriously, it sounds as though the British are setting up a bastion of Britain to retreat too in the overwhelming American environment they have landed in. In a sense, they are just hiding.

 

It would be interesting to know what the company does, as some British companies have employees with specific degrees in the buisness that have no American equivalent (or the equivalent is too local to be of use in an international community). But I think all companies exhibit cultural nepotism, people who the management get on with are promoted rather than those skilled for the role.

 

I realize the reply is a bit of a glib reply, but the specifics are not really tangible enough to comment on.

[atinymonkey]

When any group is set to work, they face new problems and new challenges. Unfortunately, people also tend to seek comfort zones from which to approach new problems from. In this case, it seems that the British contingent have created a British community for a comfort zone. This is quite understandable, as the American culture is distinctly unsettling to most British people, and vica versa. The problem is that on the surface the cultures are the same, but the subtle differences are enough to throw you off balance. Subconsciously, the British are probably minimizing the disruption to there normal processes and retreating to a 'safer' environment. It's something you see all over businesses, if groups of people move from department to department they tend to stick together in isolated units.

 

I wouldn't take the animosity too seriously, it sounds as though the British are setting up a bastion of Britain to retreat too in the overwhelming American environment they have landed in. In a sense, they are just hiding.

 

It would be interesting to know what the company does, as some British companies have employees with specific degrees in the buisness that have no American equivalent (or the equivalent is too local to be of use in an international community). But I think all companies exhibit cultural nepotism, people who the management get on with are promoted rather than those skilled for the role.

 

I realize the reply is a bit of a glib reply, but the specifics are not really tangible enough to comment on.

[albymangles]

I think that the same thing would happen in any similar situation, and most people (in a group) would not voluntarily take the oppurtunity to get involved in the others culture, especially when it seems the british side holds the upper hand in this particular power struggle.

The same arguments are often used about immigration and immigrant communities, and its usually only the children of immigrants who become integrated into the others society. In other words i think this is an almost unaviodable outcome unless a concerted effort is made to stop this from occuring.

Oh and i agree with sayonara, British people dont think they are personally superior to Welsh people, but some think that the Welsh society has a few problems right now, many Welsh people included.

[albymangles]

I think that the same thing would happen in any similar situation, and most people (in a group) would not voluntarily take the oppurtunity to get involved in the others culture, especially when it seems the british side holds the upper hand in this particular power struggle.

The same arguments are often used about immigration and immigrant communities, and its usually only the children of immigrants who become integrated into the others society. In other words i think this is an almost unaviodable outcome unless a concerted effort is made to stop this from occuring.

Oh and i agree with sayonara, British people dont think they are personally superior to Welsh people, but some think that the Welsh society has a few problems right now, many Welsh people included.

[ted_marx]

Thanks all. The Welsh comments from those who I gather are English intrigue me. One of the Brits who came over was from Wales and had actually taken speaking lessons to rid herself of the Welsh accent. It actually was in fact a few English people in our group who revealed the Welsh inferiority concept to me over many drinks one night. For some reason it doesn't seem applicable to the Scots . . .

[ted_marx]

Thanks all. The Welsh comments from those who I gather are English intrigue me. One of the Brits who came over was from Wales and had actually taken speaking lessons to rid herself of the Welsh accent. It actually was in fact a few English people in our group who revealed the Welsh inferiority concept to me over many drinks one night. For some reason it doesn't seem applicable to the Scots . . .

[Sayonara]

Did you try asking them why they thought the Welsh were inferior?

 

I would bet they have never even considered that.

[Sayonara]

Did you try asking them why they thought the Welsh were inferior?

 

I would bet they have never even considered that.

[albymangles]

Thanks all. The Welsh comments from those who I gather are English intrigue me. One of the Brits who came over was from Wales and had actually taken speaking lessons to rid herself of the Welsh accent. It actually was in fact a few English people in our group who revealed the Welsh inferiority concept to me over many drinks one night. For some reason it doesn't seem applicable to the Scots . . .

 

i dunno, most of my family are welsh and i always thought it was that scotland, ireland etc have a stronger cultural identity than the welsh; and then theres the unemployment and their economy's kinda struggling..

[albymangles]

Thanks all. The Welsh comments from those who I gather are English intrigue me. One of the Brits who came over was from Wales and had actually taken speaking lessons to rid herself of the Welsh accent. It actually was in fact a few English people in our group who revealed the Welsh inferiority concept to me over many drinks one night. For some reason it doesn't seem applicable to the Scots . . .

 

i dunno, most of my family are welsh and i always thought it was that scotland, ireland etc have a stronger cultural identity than the welsh; and then theres the unemployment and their economy's kinda struggling..

[Ophiolite]

Ted, ATinyMonkey has captured a lot of my thinking in his post. I am a Brit and I worked as an expat in various locations around the world for fifteen years, including almost three years in the US, all of this for a US company.

At that time, the seventies and eighties, the promotions went preferentially to the Americans, even though there were many talented 'other nationalities'. Socially, the single guys mixed, but the married couples tended to retreat into the familiar territory of their own culture.

When I lived in the States the majority of our friends were fellow Brits. Why? It is easier to establish a friendship with someone who has similar cultural values. Recall Churchill's comment about the Americans and the British: 'two peoples separated by a common language.'

More recently, working in the UK, but again for an American company I listened to two American colleagues discussing a third, British, colleague. They had temprarily forgotten I was also British and launched into a damning attack on the laziness of Brits, their lack of a work ethic, their desire to be looked after in every tiny way. At the end of the tirade I gently asked them if they thought all British were like that. They sheepishly realised what they had just done. I've endured/ignored/been amused by this kind of attitude for three decades. Drop someone into a setting where they feel there is some form of rampant xenophobia all around them and they will, in the best Western traditions, circle their wagons.

Exactly the same potentially occurs when Americans live as expats in the UK. Or any two diverse nationalities anywhere.

[Ophiolite]

Ted, ATinyMonkey has captured a lot of my thinking in his post. I am a Brit and I worked as an expat in various locations around the world for fifteen years, including almost three years in the US, all of this for a US company.

At that time, the seventies and eighties, the promotions went preferentially to the Americans, even though there were many talented 'other nationalities'. Socially, the single guys mixed, but the married couples tended to retreat into the familiar territory of their own culture.

When I lived in the States the majority of our friends were fellow Brits. Why? It is easier to establish a friendship with someone who has similar cultural values. Recall Churchill's comment about the Americans and the British: 'two peoples separated by a common language.'

More recently, working in the UK, but again for an American company I listened to two American colleagues discussing a third, British, colleague. They had temprarily forgotten I was also British and launched into a damning attack on the laziness of Brits, their lack of a work ethic, their desire to be looked after in every tiny way. At the end of the tirade I gently asked them if they thought all British were like that. They sheepishly realised what they had just done. I've endured/ignored/been amused by this kind of attitude for three decades. Drop someone into a setting where they feel there is some form of rampant xenophobia all around them and they will, in the best Western traditions, circle their wagons.

Exactly the same potentially occurs when Americans live as expats in the UK. Or any two diverse nationalities anywhere.