Oxygen, humans and altitude

[anotherfilthyape]

I was designing the atmosphere of the homeworld of a species that is used to has lungs that make use of both oxygen and nitrogen, but for different things... They breath like us but also benefit from nitrogen (they can survive between 5 months and less than 4 years in our atmosphere but with ngeative consequences after 5 months or so of not breathing nitrogen) and this meant they had to have much more nitrogen in their atmosphere which meant I had to sacrifice oxygen because argon and carbon dioxide are almost non-existent and since carbon dioxed is a waste product of breathing oxygen and being carbon based I replaced argon with an unspecified nitrogen compound I called "nitrious waste"... But I do not know how would humans feel in their planet... Would they need oxygen tanks? Would it depend on the ethnia to which you belong and the altitude where you were born? So here is the 4 main gases in this artificial atmosphere:

 

89.10% nitrogen

10.89% oxygen

0.0088% nitrious waste

0.00037% carbon dioxide

 

Please, can anyone be kind to me and, despite knowing that I am just wanting to use this for fiction tell me how much oxygen decreases with altitude? (I guess the question may belong to the realm of physics and chemistry nonetheless oxygen is a vital chemical for earthen life so it is also a question about ecology and the enviroment) At which height is the available oxygen about 10.89%? At a height lower than the height of the Everest? At a height lower than The Andes or the Alpes? How do humans fare with that amount of oxygen in the air they breath? (Note I'm considering the same atmospheric pressure as there is at sea level despite the planet is so large that it has 13 times the pull of the earth, it means if you go there with machinery to support your weight you would find that you weight 13 times what you weight on earth so it is necessary to use exosuits if you are human and want to be on it, but I prefer that breathing were not an additional demand on human visitors)

[Ringer]

So to find the concentration of oxygen at, say, 1 atm and 298 K use the ideal gas law, PV=nRT, and rearrange it for concentration, n/V=P/(RT). Plugging in the values for one liter using oxygen's partial pressure gives us n/1L=0.1089 atm/(.0821 * 298) = 0.00445 mol/L O2

 

I believe it is impossible to live for long stretches of time with less than 50% of the O2 concentration at our sea level, which Google tells me is around 5500m. Sea level O2 concentration is around 0.00934 mol/L O2, half of that is 0.00467 mol/L O2. So breathing the air would definitely be a problem for long term human stays though short stays may be possible, but keep in mind the transition between the relative concentrations would probably need to be gradual.

Also, if the gravitational force is 13 times that of Earth even if your extremities were supported by an exosuit it would probably still do quite a bit of damage organs. I probably wouldn't care about something like this if I was just reading a story, but I don't know how strictly realistic to you are going to be when writing.

Also, I make stupid mistakes when doing plug and chug so someone may want to check my math.

 

[anotherfilthyape]

So to find the concentration of oxygen at, say, 1 atm and 298 K use the ideal gas law, PV=nRT, and rearrange it for concentration, n/V=P/(RT). Plugging in the values for one liter using oxygen's partial pressure gives us n/1L=0.1089 atm/(.0821 * 298) = 0.00445 mol/L O2 I believe it is impossible to live for long stretches of time with less than 50% of the O2 concentration at our sea level, which Google tells me is around 5500m. Sea level O2 concentration is around 0.00934 mol/L O2, half of that is 0.00467 mol/L O2. So breathing the air would definitely be a problem for long term human stays though short stays may be possible, but keep in mind the transition between the relative concentrations would probably need to be gradual. Also, if the gravitational force is 13 times that of Earth even if your extremities were supported by an exosuit it would probably still do quite a bit of damage organs. I probably wouldn't care about something like this if I was just reading a story, but I don't know how strictly realistic to you are going to be when writing. Also, I make stupid mistakes when doing plug and chug so someone may want to check my math.

<BR><BR>Well, if I were a genius polymath that could understand every science to enough depth to avoid being acused of not being realistic by those who specialize in any pertinent field... I would be writing hard sci fi because I think that literature is better about the impossible made probable through means of realistic storytelling... But since I lack the skills for hard-sci-fi and I hate soft sci-fi... I try to justify anything that science cannot explain by the use of magic, in the end result I write in the genre of science fantasy rather than science fiction... I still try to use science whenever I can but when I want that science is becoming a obstacle for storytelling I allow "a wizard did it" as an escape and thus I claim science is about rules and magic about exceptions... So if you wonder... Yep I try to be very realistic until I am making exceptions that in-story are justified by magic and out of story by the need of narrative flexibility... <BR><BR>Edit: THANKS For the info! Edited April 28, 2012 by anotherfilthyape

[vampares]

OSHA is very intolerant of hypoxic enviroments. I don't have the times for low oxygen enviroments on hand but I think it is 12 or 13% for 5 minutes.

 

mount everest is 29,000 feet. 500mb is 18,000 feet (5,500m).

 

You can use resistive breathing techniques to increase the pressure. The lower pressure will allow CO2 to escape more easily, I would think.

[dmaiski]

13G(sustained)... that's fatal, not immediately, but after a few minutes almost anything would be dead

9G(sustained) would kill a human by draining all their blood, not to mention other liquids, into the legs

the most you can sustain safely is 10G if you are in a flat bed and totaly immobile

 

if your species has adapted to a low oxygen environment its a fairly believable story

 

but unless they are mouse people, they would not survive in a world with greater then 5 earth gravities

and that's asuminging they are heavily adapted to such environments

 

the only creatures that i could imagine living in a 13G environment are robots or other machines, large biological life tends to die really fast in a high G environment

 

 

 

 

also nothing large would evolve in a 13G environment, simply the muscle power or structural strength needed to lift yourself or move would be phenomenal(imagine bones stronger then steel and muscles that could lift buses with a single arm

 

biological life could exist on such a world, but it would be bacterial, fungal, and either single celled or large colonies(like yeast's)

 

and before someone says this and makes a fool out of themselves

an exoskeleton is heavy, for this reason the largest animal with an exoskeleton is the coconut crab measuring about half a meter in length

on a 13G world, that exoskeleton would limit yous size to 1/13th of half a meter, ie 1/26, or 3.8cm in length, or it would need to be made of light adamantium alloys.

 

Edited September 20, 2012 by dmaiski

[jamesclarde]

The Portable Oxygen System is one of the most popular and the best solution of providing artificial oxygen now a days. My grand mother was using it since last three years for the need of oxygen. It was recommended by the doctor to her and it can be used through 24/7/365 days with out fail. The separate mode is made for the purpose of rest for the system with out disturbing the patient at any instance. It is very less in weight and can be traveled easily. It is approved by the FAA for carrying it through airlines.

 

 

 

 

 

non 12-Step

alcohol detox

[alpha2cen]

In general oxygen deficiency comes from these factors.

1) lug function does not work well.

2) blood problem - hemoglobin function does not work well

3) hart problem - blood pumping does not work well

4) brain control problem-lug or respiratory system control problem

5) etc.

 

At the high altitude place, the pressure is very low.

So, the amount of oxygen in the blood is low.

Water is easily vaporized from lug to outside, so we must supply more water than usual ones.

If not, thick blood causes other problems.

[dmaiski]

all these replies assume that these are humans, and not a species that evolved in that environment any species that evolved in what environment would have better oxygen affinity in hemoglobin, different lung structure, and circulatory system.

the oxygen in this case is really not an issue(being that this is the species HOMEWORLD)

[alpha2cen]

This is Fig. of oxygen transfer in animal.

!)At the high altitude the value of Cl, outside oxygen concentration is low. So, Ca, the oxygen concentration in the artery is decrease.

!)If lug function does not work well, Kl, total mass transfer rate in the lug is decrease. So, Ca concentration is lowered.

!)If cardiac function does not work well, Q, blood flow rate is decrease.

!)If hemoglobin has a problem, Kl is decrease. So, Ca value is lowered.

!)If we move fast in the high altitude, Vt, tissue oxygen consumption rate is increase. So, when the Ca is not high enough, Ct is gradually lowered, and we become in a state of shock.

[Dekan]

Very interesting diagram. Note that it shows "Cardiac pumping" in the middle. That implies that a central, active, "cardiac pump", or "heart", must be there, in order to transfer oxygen to tissue.

 

But is that necessarily true. I'm thinking of insects - they don't have an active internal "heart" organ. They just passively absorb oxygen, through holes in the outer surface of their bodies. The vital gas is then diffused through the insect, so supplying the energy needed to built new insect tissue.

 

This system clearly works for insects. And it follows the similar principle used by plants, which also don't have "hearts". Like insects, the plants flourish by passively absorbing and diffusing the oxygen needed to build new plant tissue.

 

So if plants and insects can use this quiet, efficient system, surely mammals and humans could do the same. Without the extravagance of big clunky lungs and dodgy "beating hearts".

 

Does it take too much imagination, to envision a credible "HOMEWORLD", where intelligent creatures have evolved to breathe through their skins?

Edited October 27, 2012 by Dekan

[alpha2cen]

Very interesting diagram. Note that it shows "Cardiac pumping" in the middle. That implies that a central, active, "cardiac pump", or "heart", must be there, in order to transfer oxygen to tissue.

 

But is that necessarily true. I'm thinking of insects - they don't have an active internal "heart" organ. They just passively absorb oxygen, through holes in the outer surface of their bodies. The vital gas is then diffused through the insect, so supplying the energy needed to built new insect tissue.

 

This system clearly works for insects. And it follows the similar principle used by plants, which also don't have "hearts". Like insects, the plants flourish by passively absorbing and diffusing the oxygen needed to build new plant tissue.

 

So if plants and insects can use this quiet, efficient system, surely mammals and humans could do the same. Without the extravagance of big clunky lungs and dodgy "beating hearts".

 

Does it take too much imagination, to envision a credible "HOMEWORLD", where intelligent creatures have evolved to breathe through their skins?

 

This diagram is suitable for mammals. Respiration through skin is very small compare to lug. The contacting surface area of skin is very small compare to lug or gill.

This is simplified model to know each organs behavior .

[racheljoely]

The Oxygen is the most required gas for any person, which out this, the life cannot be possible. The masks regarding the oxygen provision are very important and I would like to know about the details regarding these Masks. Could you please produce some attachments links regarding my requirement.

 

 

 

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