Wind farms cause global warming.

[esbo]

yes i know convection happen in liquids but it is fixed within the liqiud

[Arete]

yes i know convection happen in liquids but it is fixed within the liqiud

 

which is fundamentally different to atmospheric convection how, exactly?

[esbo]

which is fundamentally different to atmospheric convection how, exactly?

 

liquids always have the same amount of greenhouse above them, however in gases in the atmosphere

the amount of greenhouse gas depends on the hight of that gas within the atmosphere.

 

Thus the effect the amount of heat lost in a gas depends on it's height but not really for a liquid

as it always had the maximum CO2 above it, ie no CO2 below it.

[Ringer]

liquids always have the same amount of greenhouse above them, however in gases in the atmosphere

the amount of greenhouse gas depends on the hight of that gas within the atmosphere.

 

Thus the effect the amount of heat lost in a gas depends on it's height but not really for a liquid

as it always had the maximum CO2 above it, ie no CO2 below it.

 

You know carbon dioxide dissolves in water right?

[swansont]

The round is radiating yes, but the air of course is also radiating.

The ground is largely solid atom, apart from the oceans etc which are liquid atoms and then

you have the atmosphere which is gaseous atoms, they all radiate energy.

 

The difference is the ground is fixed as you suggest, so is the liquid, but the gases, well they

are mobile and can more up when they are warm, provided air is allowed to fill the gap they leave.

 

You have warmer air near the ground, radiating toward the now cooler air above it, rather than cooler air radiating toward warmer air.

 

How is there more energy trapped, again?

[esbo]

You know carbon dioxide dissolves in water right?

 

yes I do, but it's not really relevant, there will be as there is always

a significant amount of atmospheric CO2 above it through which any heat has to

radiate to escape earth.

 

But perhaps more importantly there are no or at least not many underwater

windmills.

 

There are also other differences as the sea is warmed at the surface (top)

whereas the atmosphere is mainly warmed bottom.

 

But anyway the windfarms do no affect the sea at least they do not

slow the cooling currents in the same way.

Edited May 3, 2012 by esbo

[rigney]

!

Moderator Note

Not seeing any evidence, esbo.

 

Then you are not really looking.

[esbo]

Where are the CO2 levels depicted in the pictures?

 

 

It is not depicted but it is in the atmosphere, so all the marked flows contain CO2.

 

 

One is convection and the other is radiation. You cannot simply interchange the two.

 

I am not interchanging the two just explaining how convection moves the air

such that there is less CO2 above it and hence less radiation is reflected back

as air is moved higher.

 

 

 

 

 

It's getting warmer in one spot. Cooler in another.

 

 

 

The study did not mention any cooling taking place, it said it warmed at night (mainly)

indicating it warmed during the day as well.

Nowhere did that study show cooler area on the surface of the earth.

 

The radiation source is the surface of the earth.

 

And also from the atmosphere, all warm things radiate heat too cooler places.

 

Then you are not really looking.

 

Agreed!!

 

You have warmer air near the ground, radiating toward the now cooler air above it, rather than cooler air radiating toward warmer air.

 

How is there more energy trapped, again?

 

Warm air expand as it rises, the more it rises the less CO2 there is above it, ie

as it rises the green house effect gets less and less, that is why the convection

effect is very important. If you slow that down then more heat is retained for longer,

that is gonna cause warming.

Edited May 3, 2012 by esbo

[rigney]

That's because you are burning fuel - ie converting chemical energy into heat. the wind turbines are merely (claimed to be) creating separate local areas of hot and cold - they are not a significant heat source.

 

Electricity is made by magnetic field interaction, which also produces heat. This, whether it's a motor or generator. Heat produced during the process of turning kinetic energy into electrical force is dissapated back into the atmosphere during and after the process. Check it out. I'm not knocking wind mills, it's just that you don't get something for nothing. i answered esbo in the same way.

[esbo]

esbo, electricity is made by magnetic field interaction, which also produces heat. This, whether it's a motor or generator. Heat produced during the process of turning kinetic energy into electrical force is dissapated back into the atmosphere during and after the process. Check it out. I'm not knocking wind mills, it's just that you don't get something for nothing.

 

Well that is correct however it does not have a real impact on the situation it that energy was other

wise generated from another non wind source.

 

The point I am making though is that we are interfering with and degrading the system which cools

the surface of the earth where it matters, ie where we live and where it heats up the land ice and sea

(or at least it keeps warm for longer).

 

I am trying to think of a good example but most of the cooling systems we have such as in house

and cars now have a motor to circulate the coolant. However in the past many simply relied of the

fact hot air and hot water rise.

So you would have a boiler at ground level and the action of hot water rising would provide

a natural power to circulate water around the system.

It would be stupid to try and tap off energy from that natural cooling because the water would

not circulate properly and you would get a build up of heat at ground level.

 

That is what I think will happen with wind farms, we are stopping the warm air circulating properly

this could lead to hot air stagnating at ground level and it becoming stiflingly hot!!

[doG]

That is what I think will happen with wind farms, we are stopping the warm air circulating properly

this could lead to hot air stagnating at ground level and it becoming stiflingly hot!!

So you are concerned that wind farms might become uninhabitable?

[esbo]

So you are concerned that wind farms might become uninhabitable?

 

Well not so much the wind farms because few people live in them, I am concerned

about the rest of the earth.

 

Let's face if if wind farms screw up the system which keeps the surface of the earth

at a reasonable temperature then that will make CO2 warming look like a picnic.

[doG]

Well not so much the wind farms because few people live in them, I am concerned

about the rest of the earth.

 

Let's face if if wind farms screw up the system which keeps the surface of the earth

at a reasonable temperature then that will make CO2 warming look like a picnic.

What makes you think that wind is part of the Earth's cooling system?

[esbo]

What makes you think that wind is part of the Earth's cooling system?

 

wind is basically air movement, without wind there is no convection and without

convention heat has to radiate through a huge thick layer of CO2 rather than

a thin one at higher altitudes.

[doG]

wind is basically air movement, without wind there is no convection and without

convention heat has to radiate through a huge thick layer of CO2 rather than

a thin one at higher altitudes.

I challenge you to support those assertions based on the rules of this forum. I will be particularly interested in your proof that convection requires wind. Also the details on the huge thick layer of CO2 you claim to exist.

[esbo]

I challenge you to support those assertions based on the rules of this forum. I will be particularly interested in your proof that convection requires wind. Also the details on the huge thick layer of CO2 you claim to exist.

 

I have already detailed that other posts.

Hot air cannot rise without air coming in at ground level.

 

There is a basic article here http://www.weatherwi...eather-wind.htm

 

More here

 

http://www.solar-and...makes-wind.html

 

 

 

 

 

So you can see in the above picture, if you were to stick some wind turbines on the coast or in the mountains slowing

that circulation of wind, you are basically keeping a huge mass of warm air trapped on the ground so you would expect

to see a rapid rise in temperature near wind farms, and that is precisely what the study shows.

Some people attribute that warming to 'mixing' and there may well be some mixing, however it seems clear to me

al you have to do is to slow that circulation.

 

 

There is actually an excellent video here which explains it, albeit using water.

 

 

 

 

 

Note if you slow down that water flow the area of the tank under the lamp (ie the sun)

is going to get very hot!!

 

 

 

 

 

It is well know the is CO2 in the atmosphere, let's face it if there was not we would not be erecting these

huge wind mills to try and slow down it's growth!!!

 

It is mentioned several time here.

 

http://en.wikipedia..../Global_warming

Edited May 4, 2012 by esbo

[iNow]

This thread is a great example of why we generally can't seem to do anything meaningful about addressing the problem of climate change. We spend so much time addressing falsehoods... responding to lies... correcting claims stemming from ignorance or nefarious intent... playing whack-a-mole with those who do little more than obfuscate and derail and blindly assert... that we don't focus where we need to... on changing the behaviors and infrastructure that serves as the root cause of the warming trend. [/meta]

[doG]

I have already detailed that other posts....blah blah blah

Your own links show that convection causes wind, not that wind causes convection as you claimed. That wind depends on convection and not the reverse. Please back up your claim. Please prove to us that the very links that refute your claim are wrong.

[esbo]

Your own links show that convection causes wind, not that wind causes convection as you claimed. That wind depends on convection and not the reverse. Please back up your claim. Please prove to us that the very links that refute your claim are wrong.

 

 

I never claimed wind cause convection.

So I don't need to back up a claim I never made!!

Convection causes a pressure differential and that causes the wind.

However the speed of the wind is dependant on on resistance to the flow of the wind.

Wind-farms increase that resistance and slow the wind down.

The slow wind flow lowers the pressure where convection is trying to occur and thus slows the convection

as the pressure differential between the top and bottom of that area is lower, thus the convection is slower

and more warm air remains at ground level.

 

You see a similar effect if a bird builds a nest one the top of a chimney, the flow of air is restricted, creating a area of low pressure at the

top of the chimney slowing the flow of warm (and dangerous) gases and increasing the temperature in the room as the

hot air cannot escape as fast.

 

 

 

It is called the stack effect.

http://www.ehow.com/...-flue-work.html

 

Also here

www.ehow.com/how-does_4912605_fireplace-flue-work.html

Edited May 4, 2012 by esbo

[doG]

wind is basically air movement, without wind there is no convection and withoutconvention heat has to radiate through a huge thick layer of CO2 rather thana thin one at higher altitudes.

 

 

I never claimed wind cause convection.So I don't need to back up a claim I never made!!Convection causes a pressure differential and that causes the wind.

Which one is it? First you say, "without wind there is no convection" and then you say that you didn't say that and that convection causes wind.

 

Frankly, I'll agree with your 2nd statement that convection causes wind which proves that it is convection that drives wind farms. Convection is not dependent on wind so wind farms have no effect on convection. Thank you for proving yourself wrong.

[Suxamethonium]

So really simply wind is where air moves in laterally to replace the hot air that has risen vertically. The net pump for this is heat radiated by the earth (for example a road surface heated all day by the sun).

 

So if I was to place a whole lot of wind turbines in an area and it did slow the wind significantly, wouldn't it just create more significant air currents above the turbines and also from other directions. As a result it would not effect the global system, but only the surface system (i.e. the altitude of the wind turbines). The hot air is still going to rise, and unless you propose a spontaneous vacuum, new air is going to replace it.

 

Also, the only reason fans are more favoured in computers is because redesigning the whole system to cool passively has no real gain (other than super quiet operation which is still effected by mechanical hdd and such). Fans used to be used in a lot of moving lights, but by redesigning the electronics in physical space they now mostly cool passively (theatrics and TV don't want noisy fixtures) or as a combination of fan and passive.

[John Cuthber]

To be fair, Esbo has a point. Wind, here on earth, is largely driven by convection currents (in conjunction with Coriolis forces etc). Those convection currents are driven by the heat from the sun warming the equator more than the poles.

 

The wind and the convection currents are the same thing.

If you stopped the wind then the equator would get hotter and the poles would get colder. ( I will come back to that)

 

One thing that keeps the ground warm is that radiation outwards from it is reduced by the presence of CO2 in the air.

The large scale circulations move heat from ground level upwards.

Once that warm air has risen there is more scope for heat to be lost by radiation because there is simply less air above it absorbing that radiation andtrapping it a la greenhouse.

But, remember the bit about the equator getting hotter.

How much hotter?

Well, just hot enough to ensure that the incoming heat from the sun is radiated away.

The pole get colder.

How much? well, just as much as to compensate for the added losses from the hotter equator.

Overall there's no change but the local effects could be a problem.

 

However.

There's no way that the effects of tapping a very small fraction of the energy of the wind will make a measurable difference.

 

The effect is too small to worry about.

[swansont]

wind is basically air movement, without wind there is no convection and without

convention heat has to radiate through a huge thick layer of CO2 rather than

a thin one at higher altitudes.

 

The radiation we're primarily worried about is from the surface. It has to go through all the atmospheric CO2 regardless of any convection.

[questionposter]

Are there any official reports on how much CO2 wind farms release and how much energy they consume?

[rigney]

Are there any official reports on how much CO2 wind farms release and how much energy they consume?

 

 

The first link provides some good Q & A

http://www.canwea.ca/wind-energy/myths_e.php

 

The following 2 give you an idea how these turbines function.

Edited May 4, 2012 by rigney