They kill foxes, don't they?

[atinymonkey]

In the UK, we still have organized fox hunts. These involve a great many traditions, bring all sorts of revenue and benefits to rural communities, but basically boil down to a fox being chased down and killed by dogs.

 

The government has made three attempts in the past decade to ban hunting, but seems to be adamant this time that the ban will be applied: -

 

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/4020453.stm

 

Keeping in mind that a fox is not a particularly nice creature, a vicious diseased dog really, what is the right or the wrong position to take?

 

Is it correct to ban something when there are two major opposing viewpoints surrounding the activity? Should tradition be valued over the sensibilities of a few hippies? Is the hunt just a bunch of bloodthirsty idiots? Should the Government be allowed to overrule the House of Lords on this (or indeed any) issue?

[atinymonkey]

In the UK, we still have organized fox hunts. These involve a great many traditions, bring all sorts of revenue and benefits to rural communities, but basically boil down to a fox being chased down and killed by dogs.

 

The government has made three attempts in the past decade to ban hunting, but seems to be adamant this time that the ban will be applied: -

 

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/4020453.stm

 

Keeping in mind that a fox is not a particularly nice creature, a vicious diseased dog really, what is the right or the wrong position to take?

 

Is it correct to ban something when there are two major opposing viewpoints surrounding the activity? Should tradition be valued over the sensibilities of a few hippies? Is the hunt just a bunch of bloodthirsty idiots? Should the Government be allowed to overrule the House of Lords on this (or indeed any) issue?

[Mad Mardigan]

Just a bunch of hippies to me. Deer hunting season has almost started here, and it is important because it keeps the heards down and prevents over population of them. I have never fox hunted, but would like to sometime.

 

Mad the Hunter.

[Mad Mardigan]

Just a bunch of hippies to me. Deer hunting season has almost started here, and it is important because it keeps the heards down and prevents over population of them. I have never fox hunted, but would like to sometime.

 

Mad the Hunter.

[chadn]

I am a hunter, but that does not mean I support every form of hunting.

 

I have two criteria that must be followed in order to get my support.

 

1) The method of killing must be humane.

2) The dead prey should be shown respect and used. In other words, no killing and then just leaving the body to rot.

 

If fox hunters hunt by these two criteria, then yes, they have my support.

[chadn]

I am a hunter, but that does not mean I support every form of hunting.

 

I have two criteria that must be followed in order to get my support.

 

1) The method of killing must be humane.

2) The dead prey should be shown respect and used. In other words, no killing and then just leaving the body to rot.

 

If fox hunters hunt by these two criteria, then yes, they have my support.

[Aardvark]

I have two criteria that must be followed in order to get my support.

 

1) The method of killing must be humane.

2) The dead prey should be shown respect and used. In other words' date=' no killing and then just leaving the body to rot.

[/quote']

 

So according to your criteria there is no justification for killing rats as the bodies are not shown respect and used.

 

If foxes werent cute looking no one would care about them being hunted.

[Aardvark]

I have two criteria that must be followed in order to get my support.

 

1) The method of killing must be humane.

2) The dead prey should be shown respect and used. In other words' date=' no killing and then just leaving the body to rot.

[/quote']

 

So according to your criteria there is no justification for killing rats as the bodies are not shown respect and used.

 

If foxes werent cute looking no one would care about them being hunted.

[chadn]

So according to your criteria there is no justification for killing rats as the bodies are not shown respect and used.

 

That is not hunting. Anyways I find use for dead rats, cat food.

[chadn]

So according to your criteria there is no justification for killing rats as the bodies are not shown respect and used.

 

That is not hunting. Anyways I find use for dead rats, cat food.

[Aardvark]

Not hunting?

 

Foxes are killed because they are vermin, rats are killed because they are vermin.

 

The only difference is that when killing foxes the participants wear funny clothes.

 

Would that make it ok then? If the fox hunters were to simply stop wearing fancy dress? Suddenly it's not hunting?

[Aardvark]

Not hunting?

 

Foxes are killed because they are vermin, rats are killed because they are vermin.

 

The only difference is that when killing foxes the participants wear funny clothes.

 

Would that make it ok then? If the fox hunters were to simply stop wearing fancy dress? Suddenly it's not hunting?

[Ophiolite]

Would that make it ok then? If the fox hunters were to simply stop wearing fancy dress? Suddenly it's not hunting?

Yes. This (fox hunting) is an antiquated piece of upper class pretension carrying with it disregard for animal lfe while masquerading as ecologically friendly vermin control. Fine. Control the bloody things' date=' don't revel in their blood.

(Anybody offended by this view can simply put me down [figuratively'] as an aging, left wing, anti-establishment, shite-stirring hippy, and go on about your business.)

[Ophiolite]

Would that make it ok then? If the fox hunters were to simply stop wearing fancy dress? Suddenly it's not hunting?

Yes. This (fox hunting) is an antiquated piece of upper class pretension carrying with it disregard for animal lfe while masquerading as ecologically friendly vermin control. Fine. Control the bloody things' date=' don't revel in their blood.

(Anybody offended by this view can simply put me down [figuratively'] as an aging, left wing, anti-establishment, shite-stirring hippy, and go on about your business.)

[Aardvark]

Yes. This (fox hunting) is an antiquated piece of upper class pretension carrying with it disregard for animal lfe while masquerading as ecologically friendly vermin control. Fine. Control the bloody things' date=' don't revel in their blood.

(Anybody offended by this view can simply put me down [figuratively'] as an aging, left wing, anti-establishment, shite-stirring hippy, and go on about your business.)

 

So you don't care about the foxes. You're just offended about upper class people having fun.

 

Not a logical view, but at least your honest that you're only motivated by class resentment.

[Aardvark]

Yes. This (fox hunting) is an antiquated piece of upper class pretension carrying with it disregard for animal lfe while masquerading as ecologically friendly vermin control. Fine. Control the bloody things' date=' don't revel in their blood.

(Anybody offended by this view can simply put me down [figuratively'] as an aging, left wing, anti-establishment, shite-stirring hippy, and go on about your business.)

 

So you don't care about the foxes. You're just offended about upper class people having fun.

 

Not a logical view, but at least your honest that you're only motivated by class resentment.

[bloodhound]

If foxes were really vermin, then surely there are better ways to put them down than make hounds chase them while you are on horseback and watch the dogs tear the fox apart.

 

Anyone who has "fun" , whether it be upper. middle or lower class, by killing animals in such a bloody way must have something wrong with them and should be put down themselves

[bloodhound]

If foxes were really vermin, then surely there are better ways to put them down than make hounds chase them while you are on horseback and watch the dogs tear the fox apart.

 

Anyone who has "fun" , whether it be upper. middle or lower class, by killing animals in such a bloody way must have something wrong with them and should be put down themselves

[Ophiolite]

So you don't care about the foxes. You're just offended about upper class people having fun.

 

Not a logical view' date=' but at least your honest that you're only motivated by class resentment.[/quote']I do care about the foxes (that's when I am wearing my hippy hat). But I also recognise that they are vermin (scientist, ecologist and 'can I continue to get my food from the farmer, please' hat) and vermin need to be dealt with. But I wish this to be done with the minimum pain and suffering applied to the foxes. (Gaian hat) I feel similarily (pain and suffering wise) in relation to say badger baiting, which I understand is a working man's indulgence. (Gaian hat again.) I am motivated by class resentment, true. I resent all classes. (Mean old codger hat.)

As the man said, I am a well balanced individual. I have a chip on both shoulders.

 

Edit: Delighted to join you Bloodhound in your crusade to eliminate all wrong thinking people.

[Ophiolite]

So you don't care about the foxes. You're just offended about upper class people having fun.

 

Not a logical view' date=' but at least your honest that you're only motivated by class resentment.[/quote']I do care about the foxes (that's when I am wearing my hippy hat). But I also recognise that they are vermin (scientist, ecologist and 'can I continue to get my food from the farmer, please' hat) and vermin need to be dealt with. But I wish this to be done with the minimum pain and suffering applied to the foxes. (Gaian hat) I feel similarily (pain and suffering wise) in relation to say badger baiting, which I understand is a working man's indulgence. (Gaian hat again.) I am motivated by class resentment, true. I resent all classes. (Mean old codger hat.)

As the man said, I am a well balanced individual. I have a chip on both shoulders.

 

Edit: Delighted to join you Bloodhound in your crusade to eliminate all wrong thinking people.

[chadn]

Not hunting?

 

Foxes are killed because they are vermin, rats are killed because they are vermin.

 

The only difference is that when killing foxes the participants wear funny clothes.

 

Would that make it ok then? If the fox hunters were to simply stop wearing fancy dress? Suddenly it's not hunting?

 

No, its not.

 

There is far more to hunting than killing. Do you then consider slaughtering cattle to be hunting?

 

Yes. This (fox hunting) is an antiquated piece of upper class pretension carrying with it disregard for animal lfe while masquerading as ecologically friendly vermin control. Fine. Control the bloody things, don't revel in their blood.

 

I am not familiar with the method of killing in fox hunting. If they simply let the dogs tear the fox apart, then yea, I oppose it. This is not a humane method of killing and essentially ruins everything about the fox, the fur, the meat, whatever. Neither fits my criteria and so I would oppose it.

 

It would make sense, however, as to why fox hunting never took off in the US. When you hunt to survive, such waste becomes unacceptable.

[chadn]

Not hunting?

 

Foxes are killed because they are vermin, rats are killed because they are vermin.

 

The only difference is that when killing foxes the participants wear funny clothes.

 

Would that make it ok then? If the fox hunters were to simply stop wearing fancy dress? Suddenly it's not hunting?

 

No, its not.

 

There is far more to hunting than killing. Do you then consider slaughtering cattle to be hunting?

 

Yes. This (fox hunting) is an antiquated piece of upper class pretension carrying with it disregard for animal lfe while masquerading as ecologically friendly vermin control. Fine. Control the bloody things, don't revel in their blood.

 

I am not familiar with the method of killing in fox hunting. If they simply let the dogs tear the fox apart, then yea, I oppose it. This is not a humane method of killing and essentially ruins everything about the fox, the fur, the meat, whatever. Neither fits my criteria and so I would oppose it.

 

It would make sense, however, as to why fox hunting never took off in the US. When you hunt to survive, such waste becomes unacceptable.

[Aardvark]

If foxes were really vermin' date=' then surely there are better ways to put them down than make hounds chase them while you are on horseback and watch the dogs tear the fox apart.

 

Anyone who has "fun" , whether it be upper. middle or lower class, by killing animals in such a bloody way must have something wrong with them and should be put down themselves[/quote']

 

Foxes can be shot, which often means that wounded foxes linger and die slow deaths from infected wounds, or they can be poisoned, if you want poison baits placed around the countryside, or they can be gases in their burrows.

 

None of those seem more humane to me, if you can think of a more humane method then i will support it, but until someone comes up with one there is no real justification for banning fox hunting on welfare grounds.

 

As for the 'fun' aspect, would it be better if fox hunting was done by miserable people? I fail to see how that has any relevance to the morality of this issue. If killing for fun should be outlawed then i look forward to your post condemning leather shoes and hamburgers.

[Aardvark]

If foxes were really vermin' date=' then surely there are better ways to put them down than make hounds chase them while you are on horseback and watch the dogs tear the fox apart.

 

Anyone who has "fun" , whether it be upper. middle or lower class, by killing animals in such a bloody way must have something wrong with them and should be put down themselves[/quote']

 

Foxes can be shot, which often means that wounded foxes linger and die slow deaths from infected wounds, or they can be poisoned, if you want poison baits placed around the countryside, or they can be gases in their burrows.

 

None of those seem more humane to me, if you can think of a more humane method then i will support it, but until someone comes up with one there is no real justification for banning fox hunting on welfare grounds.

 

As for the 'fun' aspect, would it be better if fox hunting was done by miserable people? I fail to see how that has any relevance to the morality of this issue. If killing for fun should be outlawed then i look forward to your post condemning leather shoes and hamburgers.

[Aardvark]

It would make sense' date=' however, as to why fox hunting never took off in the US. When you hunt to survive, such waste becomes unacceptable.[/quote']

 

There is quite a lot of fox hunting in states such as Virginia.