Glass vs Plastic

[Moontanman]

I wasn't sure where to put this, so much has come out of late about the dangers of various plastics and the chemicals used to produce them and the chemicals that leach out of plastics not to mention the economics of oil and the dangers of plastics once they enter the waste stream this topic seemed to fit marginally in several possible forums...

 

Would our civilization be better served by phasing out plastic bottles and going back to glass containers? Plastics have a lot going for them, the versatility of plastics has to be a major consideration when looking at the uses of plastics but going back to the use of glass in the places where it could be used could also be an economic boon as well.

 

Glass can be recycled, the recycling of glass bottles was at one time considered a problem to be solved rather than a economic plus.

 

Some points to be considered is the ease of recycling. At one time glass bottles were a thing to be sought out to recover deposits, this made for less glass bottles along side the road and an incentive for people to collect them. In reality plastics can also be recycled but for some reason plastic bottles seem to be more likely to enter the waste stream and end up in land fills and sometimes they end up floating around in the ocean in huge swarms of plastic particles.

 

I guess the first real question is plastic more or less damaging to the environment than glass? Glass eventually becomes sand and plastic eventually becomes CO2 but glass would seem to be less harmful along the way that plastic.

 

Would going back to glass create jobs or kill them?

 

Expense would have to be a major consideration as well.

 

I am sure there are facets of this I have not considered so feel free to point them out.

[Phi for All]

I like the idea of using glass to save plastic and oil for things that plastic and oil are the best choice for. The recycling deposit some states in the US charged for glass bottles was effective at keeping glass refuse out of the environment. If you didn't want the nickel yourself, there were always lots of kids who were happy to make some money.

 

Safety is a bigger concern for glass. Broken glass cuts skin pretty easily and there's no shortage of folks who like breaking glass.

 

For every plastic job lost there'd be another created for glass replacements.

 

Weight could be a big concern. Shipping costs would go up since we couldn't make glass thin enough to be safe AND as light as plastic.

 

Edit to add: Glass is one of those smart investments, something that costs more to begin with but lasts soooo much longer than the alternatives that it's actually much cheaper in the long run. Also, for items like storage containers, glass retains it's shape forever and its non-porous nature means it doesn't absorb stains and odors like plastic does.

Edited May 13, 2012 by Phi for All
additional info

[CaptainPanic]

Both your posts make a lot of sense, if you make the assumption to discard the bottle immediately after the 1st use, and if you only look at the effect of the waste, not production. If you look at the entire life span of a bottle, it becomes complicated:

 

Production

I do not have the numbers, but my guess is that glass bottles require more (fossil) energy to make than a plastic bottle, simply because it's so heavy. A typical glass bottle may be somewhere between 10 - 100 times as heavy, meaning that 10 - 100 times as much material is used to make that bottle.

 

Recycling

A typical Dutch glass beer bottle is recycled up to 40 times before being melted down (source: Dutch wikipedia). But, it must be noted that in the Netherlands, we have plastic milk bottles which are apparently used 50 times before being discarded (or recycled? I don't know). And those plastic bottles are only a fraction of the weight, so they are easier to transport.

 

Plastic bottles can be recycled just as easily as glass, if the bottles are made strong enough to withstand a beating. Germany, and a number of Scandinavian countries have a refund on plastic bottles. Their bottles are a lot tougher (thicker plastic) than in many other countries. They are made to be recycled. Each bottle is worth 25 cents, or more. And hardly any bottles are thrown away.

 

Discard into the environment

If we ignore that nowadays the majority of waste is burned and/or recycled, and we look only at the effects of bottles being discarded into the environment, then glass is the preferred option. Glass is essentially sand, and has very few drawbacks if dumped... Ok, so it's sharp. The sharp edges will not remain sharp forever... and it's a very local problem.

 

So

In summary, it's not so much the material you use, it's how you use it. I would prefer it if the answer is more simple, but it's not.

[Phi for All]

Recycling

A typical Dutch glass beer bottle is recycled up to 40 times before being melted down (source: Dutch wikipedia). But, it must be noted that in the Netherlands, we have plastic milk bottles which are apparently used 50 times before being discarded (or recycled? I don't know). And those plastic bottles are only a fraction of the weight, so they are easier to transport.

 

Plastic bottles can be recycled just as easily as glass, if the bottles are made strong enough to withstand a beating. Germany, and a number of Scandinavian countries have a refund on plastic bottles. Their bottles are a lot tougher (thicker plastic) than in many other countries. They are made to be recycled. Each bottle is worth 25 cents, or more. And hardly any bottles are thrown away.

Let's make the distinction between Reusing an item and Recycling it. Reusing sterilizes the container, relabels it (if necessary) and refills it (or some variation, this is an assumption), whereas Recycling actually grinds or melts it down and molds it into the same thing again or something similar. Plastic can get pretty beat-up looking when it's reused too many times, although with milk bottles (we have those in the US as well, usually from dairies that deliver and pick up the reusable bottles) you can't see the scuff marks easily. I can't think of any other containers, plastic or glass, that are reused except for milk.

[John Cuthber]

I can't think of any other containers, plastic or glass, that are reused except for milk.

I can.

Dutch beer bottles, according to that wiki page.

Also there are pubs where they will fill a container with beer for you. you can reuse the container (and I don't mean the glasses).

[zapatos]

I can.

Dutch beer bottles, according to that wiki page.

Also there are pubs where they will fill a container with beer for you. you can reuse the container (and I don't mean the glasses).

Also those big (5 gallon?) plastic water bottles for water coolers.

[John Cuthber]

Also those big (5 gallon?) plastic water bottles for water coolers.

Good point (and I'm sure the pubs would be happy to fill them with beer for you instead if you liked.)

[Phi for All]

I can.

Dutch beer bottles, according to that wiki page.

Also there are pubs where they will fill a container with beer for you. you can reuse the container (and I don't mean the glasses).

I could be wrong, but I don't think any bar in the US would let you bring a reusable container, plastic or glass, back to an establishment for a "refill" of anything. Health codes, I've been told, which seems more like, "We don't trust you to clean out your own container well enough to avoid the sickness you'd probably sue us for." I'd love to be able to take my plastic storage containers to the store for a refill of bulk cereals.

 

Convenience stores will let you refill containers with fountain soft drinks, though. I wonder how they get around the health codes?

 

Also those big (5 gallon?) plastic water bottles for water coolers.

Good example. And again, you have to have a company in the middle to swap out the jugs to make sure they're sterile before reuse, at least in the US, afaik.

[zapatos]

I could be wrong, but I don't think any bar in the US would let you bring a reusable container, plastic or glass, back to an establishment for a "refill" of anything. Health codes, I've been told, which seems more like, "We don't trust you to clean out your own container well enough to avoid the sickness you'd probably sue us for." I'd love to be able to take my plastic storage containers to the store for a refill of bulk cereals.

I was in a bar in Michigan a couple of years ago that did their own brewing. They sold 2 liter bottles of their brew in bottles with the reusable tops like on Grolsch bottles. They would refill those bottles for you.

 

This is the only example I could come up with though.

[Moontanman]

I do remember the old square one gallon glass milk jugs, they were my first aquariums, i had dozens of them with fish in them. I hadn't considered reusing plastic containers but most plastic containers are of the disposable type and those are the ones causing problems as far as land fills and pollution are concerned.

 

I also wonder about the costs, are glass bottles more expensive to make than plastic? What is the cost analysis after you factor in reuse? I can see large plastic containers being stout enough to be reused but the small ones don't seem to be strong enough to be reused multiple times.

 

Sterilization would seem to be a problem with the small containers, they do wither easily when heated.

 

Pollution and oil is my main concern, how much oil goes into plastic bottles each year?

 

http://www.pacinst.org/topics/water_and_sustainability/bottled_water/bottled_water_and_energy.html

 

And that's just bottled water.

 

I know all us old guys long for the days of yore but in terms of waste i think this part of our disposable society could be improved.

[differentDemocrat]

Plastics kill you. Glass does not.

[Moontanman]

Plastics kill you. Glass does not.

 

 

Could you please elaborate on that?

[Phi for All]

Pollution and oil is my main concern, how much oil goes into plastic bottles each year?

 

http://www.pacinst.o...and_energy.html

 

And that's just bottled water.

 

I know all us old guys long for the days of yore but in terms of waste i think this part of our disposable society could be improved.

I still don't understand the psychology behind the US buying so much bottled water. I know in France ordering bottled water is more expensive than ordering a glass of wine. Here, bottled water is cheap and it's everywhere, like we used to all be dehydrated or something and now we have this miracle cure. It's convenience, that's all it is, imo. We're besotted with things we can buy, use and toss, the more the better it seems sometimes.

[Moontanman]

I still don't understand the psychology behind the US buying so much bottled water. I know in France ordering bottled water is more expensive than ordering a glass of wine. Here, bottled water is cheap and it's everywhere, like we used to all be dehydrated or something and now we have this miracle cure. It's convenience, that's all it is, imo. We're besotted with things we can buy, use and toss, the more the better it seems sometimes.

 

 

Where I live the water that comes out of the ground is almost undrinkable and considered unhealthy, the Castle Hayne aquifer is semi famous for containing huge amounts of HS, sulfur dioxide, iron sulfides and other nasties like heavy metals but on a larger scale tap water is touted as unsafe by the manufacturers of bottled water. Some of the obsession with bottled water comes from this propaganda. If i had the money i would invest in a reverse osmosis unit and solve that problem.

[John Cuthber]

I could be wrong, but I don't think any bar in the US would let you bring a reusable container, plastic or glass, back to an establishment for a "refill" of anything. Health codes, I've been told, which seems more like, "We don't trust you to clean out your own container well enough to avoid the sickness you'd probably sue us for." I'd love to be able to take my plastic storage containers to the store for a refill of bulk cereals.

 

Convenience stores will let you refill containers with fountain soft drinks, though. I wonder how they get around the health codes?

 

 

Good example. And again, you have to have a company in the middle to swap out the jugs to make sure they're sterile before reuse, at least in the US, afaik.

 

About 95% or the world's population do not live in the US.

We are not deeply concerned about your bars.

Edited May 14, 2012 by John Cuthber

[zapatos]

About 95% or the world's population do not live in the US.

We are not deeply concerned about your bars.

Of course not. Why would they be? I don't even know anyone in the US who is deeply concerned about our bars.

[Phi for All]

About 95% or the world's population do not live in the US.

We are not deeply concerned about your bars.

Why so surly? I was pointing out a difference. Did you think I was somehow bragging on our lack of refillability?

[Moontanman]

About 95% or the world's population do not live in the US.

We are not deeply concerned about your bars.

 

 

i think the problem of plastics in our environment is a world wide problem and if is not now it will eventually be. The OT is would we be better off if we went back to glass and stopped with the production of most if not all plastic containers.