Supernovae and time

[ydoaPs]

hay all im a creationist the earth is around 6000 yo etc etc

 

There are two options here: either the universe is FAR FAR FAR older than 6,000 years, or God is a liar. Since God isn't a liar (by definition of the traditional YHWH as being morally perfect), that leaves us with only one option. It's a simple Disjunctive Syllogism:

 

OvL

~L

O

 

 

But how can we set up that initial disjunction? Well, it involves knowing a couple of things about physics, astronomy, and the Bible.

 

 

The speed of light is both constant and invariant. This follows directly from the Maxwell equations that describe how electric and magnetic fields behave and is the basis for one of the most well tested theories ever. If the speed of light weren't constant and invariant, your computer you use to read this post wouldn't work since it's based on the Maxwell equations.

 

Maxwell equations:

 

[math]\bigtriangledown\cdot{E}=\frac{\rho}{\epsilon_0}[/math]

[math]\bigtriangledown\times{E}=-\frac{\partial{B}}{\partial{t}}[/math]

[math]\bigtriangledown\cdot{B}=0[/math]

[math]\bigtriangledown\times{B}={\mu_0}{\epsilon_0}\frac{\partial{E}}{\partial{t}}[/math]

 

These are the equations that describe how electric fields and magnetic fields interact. Think of [math]\bigtriangledown\cdot[/math] as describing whether or not a vector field is pointing inward or outward, think of [math]\bigtriangledown\times[/math] as describing which in which direction and how tightly a vector field is curled, and think of [math]\frac{\partial}{\partial{t}}[/math] as being the rate of change of the vector field. A vector field is a space where there is a vector at every point. A vector is a mathematical object with both a number and a direction. Having no charges to worry about with light, we can set the charge density equal to zero which makes the equations:

 

[math]\bigtriangledown\cdot{E}=0[/math]

[math]\bigtriangledown\times{E}=-\frac{\partial{B}}{\partial{t}}[/math]

[math]\bigtriangledown\cdot{B}=0[/math]

[math]\bigtriangledown\times{B}={\mu_0}{\epsilon_0}\frac{\partial{E}}{\partial{t}}[/math]

 

Now, let's take the curl of the curl equations and see what happens.

 

[math]\bigtriangledown\times\bigtriangledown\times{E}=-\frac{\partial}{\partial{t}}\bigtriangledown\times{B}=-{\mu_0}{\epsilon_0}\frac{\partial^2{E}}{\partial{t^2}}[/math]

[math]\bigtriangledown\times\bigtriangledown\times{B}={\mu_0}{\epsilon_0}\frac{\partial}{\partial{t}}\bigtriangledown\times{E}=-{\mu_0}{\epsilon_0}\frac{\partial^2{B}}{\partial{t^2}}[/math]

 

Since [math]\bigtriangledown\times(\bigtriangledown\times{V})=\bigtriangledown(\bigtriangledown\cdot{V})-\bigtriangledown^2{V}[/math] for any vector field V, we can write:

 

[math]-{\mu_0}{\epsilon_0}\frac{\partial^2{E}}{\partial{t^2}}=-\bigtriangledown^2{E}[/math]

[math]-{\mu_0}{\epsilon_0}\frac{\partial^2{B}}{\partial{t^2}}=-\bigtriangledown^2{B}[/math]

 

which we rearrange to get:

 

[math]\frac{\partial^2{E}}{\partial{t^2}}-\frac{1}{{\mu_0}{\epsilon_0}}\cdot\bigtriangledown^2{E}=0[/math]

[math]\frac{\partial^2{B}}{\partial{t^2}}-\frac{1}{{\mu_0}{\epsilon_0}}\cdot\bigtriangledown^2{B}=0[/math]

 

which are the electromagnetic wave equations. The speed term is [math]\frac{1}{\sqrt{{\mu_0}{\epsilon_0}}}[/math] where [math]\mu_0[/math] is the permeability of free space and [math]\epsilon_0[/math] is the permattivity of free space. Plug in the numbers and that's how we get c.

 

Do any of those numbers depend on the speed or reference frame? The answer to that question is "no".

 

Ok, the speed of light is constant. So what? Well, a lot of things.

 

[math]D=\int{\vec{v}}dt[/math] And if we make the speed constant, we get simply D=ct where D is distance, c is the speed of light, and t is time traveled. This means we can only see things that are so far away from us. This means that, if the universe is only 6000 years old, we can only see things within a radius of 6000 light years.

 

Let's look at an example:

 

Supernova 1987A is a supernova that we saw happen in 1987. This supernova was 168,000 light years away from Earth. This means the supernova actually happened 168,000 years before 1987. This supernova is 28 times older than you say the universe is.

 

But what if God created the light on it's way for some mysterious reason?! Well, that seems like a good question. But, what did we see there prior to 1987? We saw a star. This star, according to your timescale never existed which means God would have been lying to us. God cannot lie and as Psalms 19 says, the heavens declare His glory and the firmament shows His handywork. The heavens say the universe is old....VERY VERY OLD.

Edited May 17, 2012 by ydoaPs

[sammy7]

hi intriguing topic, just want to know though what is your personal belief on origins? if your intention is just to undermine the bible i dont really care (no offense) either way this is an interesting thought and i will read more about it... thanks

[hypervalent_iodine]

!

Moderator Note

sammy7, this is the physics forum. Questions of a religious nature are best kept in the Religion forum, where they are not hijacking other threads.

[sammy7]

hi sorry thought it was a personal or private thread or something.

[A Tripolation]

http://www.answersingenesis.org/articles/arj/v3/n1/anisotropic-synchrony-convention

 

The distant starlight problem is resolved if we accept that Genesis is using the anisotropic synchrony convention (ASC) rather than the Einstein synchrony convention. The resolution is simple: under ASC, the one-way speed of light when directed toward earth is axiomatically infinite, even though the round-trip speed of light remains 3 × 108 m/s. Thus, the light from stars that are created on the fourth day will naturally reach the earth essentially instantaneously.

[sammy7]

wow fascinating thanks dude will read more about it

[ydoaPs]

http://www.answersingenesis.org/articles/arj/v3/n1/anisotropic-synchrony-convention

 

The distant starlight problem is resolved if we accept that Genesis is using the anisotropic synchrony convention (ASC) rather than the Einstein synchrony convention. The resolution is simple: under ASC, the one-way speed of light when directed toward earth is axiomatically infinite, even though the round-trip speed of light remains 3 × 108 m/s. Thus, the light from stars that are created on the fourth day will naturally reach the earth essentially instantaneously.

 

When you break physics, you can do whatever you want. Then again, I should have suspected the people over at AiG were living in a universe different than that of our own.