Religion and Morality

[Athena]

Except, consciousness is not limited to humans, and atheists answer why questions all of the time. They simply choose not to end the search for answers to those questions as a result of baseless theological presumptions and conjectures.

 

I don't know. In a different science forum I have asked how we might come to moral decisions without religion, and that thread is not going so well. Actually the answers to such questions are frightening to me. It appears without at least some philosophy there are people interested in how things work who never question the morality of anything. Amoral science might not be a good thing, and it is what Zeus was afraid of.

[iNow]

I don't know. In a different science forum I have asked how we might come to moral decisions without religion, and that thread is not going so well. Actually the answers to such questions are frightening to me.

I think a better question is perhaps how do we manage to remain moral in spite of religion. We are a social species, and morality is embedded in our ability to co-exist in tribes. Even non-human animals that exist in packs or groups display moral behaviors. Morality comes from our existence in a shared society.

 

If you're scared of what it means to make moral decisions in the absence of religion, then answer this one question for me. I'll borrow from Hitchens since he said it so eloquently:

 

Name one ethical statement made, or one ethical action performed, by a believer that could not have been uttered or done by a nonbeliever.

The second challenge. Can anyone think of a wicked statement made, or an evil action performed, precisely because of religious faith?

 

The second question is easy to answer, is it not? The first awaits a convincing reply.

 

 

Finally, in regards to the abrahamic religions, it's even easier to address. The bible, for example, is full of horrible atrocities and teachings, yet we rightfully ignore much of that. Well, if something like the bible were the source of our morality, then how would we know which parts to ignore? We couldn't possibly. We have to have that knowledge already.

 

Anyway, your mistake seems to be that you've bought into the narrative that morality comes from religion, when in fact religion has merely hijacked the mantle of a morality that is already extant throughout all social species across the animal kingdom, including humans.

 

[Phi for All]

I, for one, dislike the idea of basing morality on threats of punishment. Isn't it more ethically sound to reason out that we're better off treating each other well because it's a self-sustaining system? If I reach the conclusion that helping my fellow man helps me more than rejecting my fellow man and only looking out for myself, isn't that better than if I reach the same conclusion because a deity will punish me if I don't?

 

When I quit drinking and smoking, I didn't do it because it was eventually going to kill me. I quit because it benefited not only me but everyone around me, everyone I loved or worked with or lived near. Reason is more sustainable than threat of punishment, because reason will always lead me eventually towards happiness and contentment, whereas threats make me defensive and ultimately lead me to rebellion and dissent.

[Athena]

I don't know. In a different science forum I have asked how we might come to moral decisions without religion, and that thread is not going so well. Actually the answers to such questions are frightening to me. It appears without at least some philosophy there are people interested in how things work who never question the morality of anything. Amoral science might not be a good thing, and it is what Zeus was afraid of.

 

 

What I said is not about religion. It is an argument opposing the argument that philosophy is crap, and it should have never been separated from the thread arguing philosophy is crap. Philosophy is a love of knowledge, and we increase our knowledge by observing and by arguing about what we observed and why it is so. Philosophy is the foundation of science, and science explains "the law". With knowledge of "the law", we make the laws that regulate our lives, and that is democracy. So philosophy is quite essential to democracy, and it is really insane to believe we are defending our democracy with guns and bombs on the other side of world, when at home we have zero understanding of it.

 

I, for one, dislike the idea of basing morality on threats of punishment. Isn't it more ethically sound to reason out that we're better off treating each other well because it's a self-sustaining system? If I reach the conclusion that helping my fellow man helps me more than rejecting my fellow man and only looking out for myself, isn't that better than if I reach the same conclusion because a deity will punish me if I don't?

 

When I quit drinking and smoking, I didn't do it because it was eventually going to kill me. I quit because it benefited not only me but everyone around me, everyone I loved or worked with or lived near. Reason is more sustainable than threat of punishment, because reason will always lead me eventually towards happiness and contentment, whereas threats make me defensive and ultimately lead me to rebellion and dissent.

 

You may not like that fact if we do wrong, things go wrong, but that is just the way it is. You quite drinking and smoking because it damages your body. Please explain the logic of saying you dislike morality based on know what is going to harm you and what is going to benefit you?

 

Philosophy is the reasoning of which you speak, and my statement is in favor of philosophy. It is essential to democracy, and I stand for democracy.

 

The Greek gods are the language of our civilization. Each one is a concept, and the genius of the Greeks was arguing these concepts against each other, resulting in a rapid increase in our knowledge that is not possible with one God. Every time the Greeks realized a new concept, they named a god for it, just as quantum physicist name new particles when they discover something new. This new god was added to the mix of gods, as physicist add their newly discovered knowledge to the rest of it. Philosophy is the foundation of science.

 

I hate this thread being in religion, because I am not talking about religion. I hate the education that has resulted is such wide spread ignorance of what I am saying. I hate that my argument is not in the thread arguing philosophy is crap, because that is where it belongs.

Edited May 19, 2012 by Athena

[Phi for All]

You may not like that fact if we do wrong, things go wrong, but that is just the way it is. You quite drinking and smoking because it damages your body.

I was quite clear in what I said. Where the hell do you get off telling ME why I quit drinking and smoking? Were you there? Do you know me at all?

 

I drank too much and smoked too much for years knowing it damaged my body, and that never stopped me. It was only when I finally realized the toll it was taking on my family and friendships that I made the decision to quit. Ultimately though, I quit because I value what I stand for, life/family/friends, and made a vow to myself, which I've honored for 20 years now. Not because a god will punish me if I don't, but because I value what my vows stand for.

 

 

Please explain the logic of saying you dislike morality based on know what is going to harm you and what is going to benefit you?

Why should I explain that? It's quite clearly NOT what I said.

 

I dislike the idea of being ethical just because I fear the reprisals of a deity if I'm not. I much prefer the rational reasoning that being ethical benefits those around me who will hopefully realize the same thing, extending their ethical behavior to me as well. People lose their faith all the time, and then where is the strength of their morality? Reasoned ethics seem stronger to me, much stronger than those enforced by a threatening deity.

[pmb]

Ultimately though, I quit because I value what I stand for, life/family/friends, and made a vow to myself, which I've honored for 20 years now. Not because a god will punish me if I don't, but because I value what my vows stand for.

Congradulations Phi for All! Way to go! I quiet 22 years ago. I think it was because I started exercising and the contradiction between doing areobicxs and having a smoke after that was too much for the logic portion of my mind to handle.

 

I dislike the idea of being ethical just because I fear the reprisals of a deity if I'm not. I much prefer the rational reasoning that being ethical benefits those around me who will hopefully realize the same thing, extending their ethical behavior to me as well. People lose their faith all the time, and then where is the strength of their morality? Reasoned ethics seem stronger to me, much stronger than those enforced by a threatening deity.

In my experience it never really seemed to work. All the time I was going to church in the last seven years it was like I was surounging myself mostley by hypocrits. I was suffering a lot in life due to loneliness and illness. I thought that surrounding myself by Christians that part of my life would disappeared. Instead if only got worse. There just seemed to be more people who were available to abandon me. I'm still a Christian by one that doesn't surround myself with hypocrits.