What is the best caffeine substitute?

[Green Xenon]

Hi:

 

I'm currently thinking of a substance that has similar medical effects as caffeine [such as increased sense of energy and the decreased perception of exercise-induced pain]. However, this hypothetical drug does not have any significant or direct effects on the urinary system, sweat glands, digestive system, respiratory system, or circulatory system.

 

What actually-existing substance most closely fits the categories I'm looking for?

 

 

Thanks,

 

GX

[Ben Banana]

Um. Exercise.

 

Edit:

Whatever its effects (on the urinary system, sweat glands, digestive system, respiratory system, or circulatory system), exercise will beat any substance.

 

[such as increased sense of energy and the decreased perception of exercise-induced pain]

Shame.

 

Edit:

If you're looking for more energy, you eat wholesome food. Nevertheless, exercise is essential.

 

Edit:

And yes, I do believe that such substances like caffeine are for suckers. Sorry to poop your topic.

 

Edit:

How many times have I clicked "edit" ?

 

Edit:

I count four five. You may click [-].

Edited May 28, 2012 by Ben Bowen

[John Cuthber]

If there was a drug that did all that, we would all have heard of it.

[Ben Banana]

If there was a drug that did all that

The point is cybernetics. I must stop now. My speculations beyond that statement are not related to medical science, and at the moment, very undisciplined.

[iNow]

Have you considered orgasm?

[Moontanman]

Coca?

[Green Xenon]

Coca?

 

Coca increases heart rate

[mooeypoo]

Coca increases heart rate

 

So does orgasm.

[Appolinaria]

What is orgasm? An energy drink?

[Xittenn]

I advocate for Taurine supplements. Although without the added caffeine found in energy drinks you might not feel the kick, I think it does essentially achieve the effects that you desire.

Edited May 29, 2012 by Xittenn

[Suxamethonium]

Note- In case this is not so hypothetical, it is important to consult a physician before intentionally taking anything for a therapeutic purpose. Many drugs will interact negatively with other compounds/events (drugs, foods, supplements, medical conditions, etc) inducing sickness or death e.g. ACE inhibitors can cause kidney failure when taken with NSAIDs such as ibuprofen or cause hyperkalemia when taken with potassium supplements (both OTC products).

This should not be interpreted as advice, just some information.

 

Like all drugs, everything varies from person to person. However there are various compounds that achieve the same kind of effects as caffeine (in regards to alertness/stimulant effects). Most of them are restricted substances.

 

A couple of examples are:

 

Methylphenidate (ritalin) and other similar substances.

Other xanthines like theophyllin or other adenosine receptor antagonists.

Drugs that behave like neurotransmitters - such as nicotine.

 

The "best" would be a weigh up of therapeutic effect vs adverse effects. If you come across a drug with none of the side-effects you mentioned, it is going to have some you didn't mention- however the severity of any side-effects can usually be controlled by dosage.

 

For the point of theory: you could argue that administration of endogenous neurotransmitters into the CNS would have the least (drug related) side effects- in theory the only side effects should be that of what the body would experience in a potential naturally occurring over-alert state.

[Green Xenon]

For the point of theory: you could argue that administration of endogenous neurotransmitters into the CNS would have the least (drug related) side effects- in theory the only side effects should be that of what the body would experience in a potential naturally occurring over-alert state.

 

I wonder if something like this can be achieved with caffeine by administering it directly into the brain via the nose. There is a part of the nose where objects small enough can be inserted into the brain.

Edited May 29, 2012 by Green Xenon

[Suxamethonium]

No, because it will still be able to cross the BBB and enter the periphery anyway. It also needs to be metabolised and excreted which happens outside of the CNS.

 

The reason neurotransmitters would have less side effects would be because they are the reason why these drugs have their therapeutic effects- so you are effectively inducing the alert state without the added effects of the non-endogenous drug. Of coarse you will still probably get significant side effects- but such side effects will be associated with the bodily state and could be regarded as unavoidable or having limited possibility to reduce.

[ewmon]

Try tea. Although scientists say that coffee and tea contain "caffeine", the two drinks don't contain the same chemical. Generally, the caffeines are methylated xanthines — coffee contains 1,3,7-trimethylxanthine, and tea contains 1,3-dimethylxanthine. Most of coffee's "caffeine" utilizes the paraxanthine metabolic pathway, while tea's "caffeine" utilizes its own metabolic pathway. I have found this site very informative.

[Electron]

if you target the same receptors on the same cell, you will always produce the same side effect. You can modify the chemical structure and limit or eliminate the activity on other receptors in the the body. That is your options.

[CharonY]

if you target the same receptors on the same cell, you will always produce the same side effect. You can modify the chemical structure and limit or eliminate the activity on other receptors in the the body. That is your options.

 

That is incorrect, or rather only half of the story. The binding efficiency between receptor and target is also relevant. Hence different compounds with the same receptor can elicit different response strengths.

 

Try tea. Although scientists say that coffee and tea contain "caffeine", the two drinks don't contain the same chemical. Generally, the caffeines are methylated xanthines — coffee contains 1,3,7-trimethylxanthine, and tea contains 1,3-dimethylxanthine. Most of coffee's "caffeine" utilizes the paraxanthine metabolic pathway, while tea's "caffeine" utilizes its own metabolic pathway. I have found this site very informative

 

This is incorrect, too. Only the trimethylxanthine is caffeine. The dimethylxanthine is also named theophyline, but not caffeine. Coffee and tea both contain caffeine as well as theophylline. The latter has a stronger physiological effect, IIRC.

[John Cuthber]

There's a really good reason why scientists say that tea contains caffeine.

It does, lots.

It also contains some theophyline which is one of the dimethyl xanthines.

Cocoa contains a fair bit of one of the other dimethylxanthines theobromine

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theobromine

 

Those of you who are keeping count will realise there's another dimethylxanthine.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paraxanthine

and there are also three different (mono) methylxanthines.

 

None of these has the effect that the OP is after.

[Fuzzwood]

What is orgasm? An energy drink?

 

If you collect enough of the results... Protein shake!

[ewmon]

So, trimethylxanthine is the only stimulant in the bunch?

[John Cuthber]

So, trimethylxanthine is the only stimulant in the bunch?

No, but they all have broadly the same pattern of side effects.

[Green Xenon]

Now I'm daydreaming about a pill that contains caffeine, propanolol [to cancel out the tachycardia caused by the caffeine], and a kidney-relaxant.

 

Caffeine excites the kidneys causing an increase in urine-production. The kidney-relaxant drug cancels out this effect, thereby restoring urine-production levels that would be produce without the caffeine.

 

What medication would act as the most efficient kidney-relaxant?

 

Why don't drug companies currently make a mix of the 3 substances?

 

IIRC, propanolol is a beta-blocker that slows the heart rate.

[John Cuthber]

Are you going to add a 4th drug to counter the side effects of the propranolol?

And a fifth to counter whatever you add as as antidiuretic?

What about a 6th and 7th to offset numbers 4 and 5?

 

Does this answer your question about "Why don't drug companies currently make a mix of the 3 substances?"

 

A lot of us are happy to drink coffee to wake us up a bit and we ignore the side effects.

[Green Xenon]

Are you going to add a 4th drug to counter the side effects of the propranolol?

And a fifth to counter whatever you add as as antidiuretic?

What about a 6th and 7th to offset numbers 4 and 5?

 

Does this answer your question about "Why don't drug companies currently make a mix of the 3 substances?"

 

A lot of us are happy to drink coffee to wake us up a bit and we ignore the side effects.

 

No need for anything past the 3rd drug.

 

I just want to be awake, alert, and energetic to the point of hyperactivity WITHOUT the nuisances of tachycardia and increase urine production.

[Phi for All]

I just want to be awake, alert, and energetic to the point of hyperactivity WITHOUT the nuisances of tachycardia and increase urine production.

 

I say just pop some propanolol, put on your Starbucks hat, a pair of Depends and get your bad self outside.

 

[Suxamethonium]

Propranolol for starters is not a good choice. It would automatically be contraindicated in asthma, COPD and other similar respiratory disorders. You would go with a selective betablocker like atenolol which would still be contraindicated in pregnancy, lactation, bradycardia, etc etc.

 

Secondly this combination would not be used because:

1) Beta blockers and caffeine have drug interactions. MIMs- "Avoid Combination" Severity-2 (1 being most), Good documentation.

 

Other reasons:

* It changes an unscheduled medication to a scheduled one (i.e. requires prescription).

* The tachycardia from caffeine is highly variable between individuals. Giving atenolol in less or non- tachycardic individuals runs the risk of hypotension and possible death.

* Including something to suppress kidney function would effect the clearance time of all drugs. This would increase toxicity to various organs (for example liver) and would be highly problematic if severe adverse reactions were to develop (Possibly requiring immediate dialysis).