Change and time.

[michel123456]

Very fast, even exceeding c, is still not instantaneous.

 

But this does bring up another example: when you measure the state of an entangled particle, you instantaneously know the state of it's partner. So the transition from unmeasured to measured takes no time. Even though the measurement and acquisition of the state of the first particle takes time, the second bit of information does not.

 

I think it's largely because the question is ambiguous, since it doesn't state what change is being discussed. What of you recast it as "can a system be in two distinct states at once?" Entangled systems are part of a special case, and open a loophole because they still represent a single system up until you make a measurement, and the answer to the question is yes. If you look at the state of a system that cannot be put into a superposition, then you don't accept a multi-valued function — if you are in a state, you only get one answer. To change must allow for a different time tag, and thus it does take time, even if it is small.

 

Ordering of events is another aspect of not accepting a multi-valued function.

 

Bolded mine.

 

That was not what I had in mind when asking the question. Simultaneity is a description that involves time: it is "zero time". What I asked was more about no time at all, maybe it's a bit difficult to grasp. The example of the mathematical equations on a sheet of paper is the only one I can think of. A derivation is a sequence of equations that are all equals, but different. When you make a derivation, you make some changes, is there time in it?

[studiot]

That was not what I had in mind when asking the question.

 

Change usually refers to a transformation from one thing to another, not the difference between two independent objects or concepts.

 

So let me ask what would and wouldn't be within your definitions.

 

If I sit on the train and watch the scenery going past I will see perhaps a factory, a field, a river...

 

Now this is one thing followed by another so this is this change?

 

I can say this change occurs in time since I can give specific time coordinates for these views.

However, considering the unreliability of the train service, these coordinates will vary from journey to journey, as will the time differences between these different views.

I could also measure the changes by distance along the track with a better expectation of repeatability.

 

Now the above example definitely involves a time change.

 

But what about a steady state phenomenon?

 

Say the specific energy curve for a fluid flowing steadily in a channel?

 

The specific energy will change from location to location, but remain constant in time at any one location.

[owl]

md:

"You say "No." Please explain." (Reply to 18 below)

 

I did already in different ways in every post... 2, 9, 11, etc.

11:

"If time is just the concept of that which elapses as things move, that can be longer or shorter duration depending on the physical process involved (and velocity/gravity situation for a clock.)"

13:

"It's not like clocks detect and measure something called "time" which slows down. It is simply that clocks slow down."

18:

"Title: "Change and time... can change happen without time?"

No. Change is movement on whatever scale, whatever the event or events. Movement takes time. Whether movement happens faster or slower is another question, depending on a wide variety of factors."

md, 20:

Since you're using a non-standard, personal definition of time, the meaning you assign to the phrase "change in time" is different from what others mean.

 

It is not a personal definition. It seems to me the most generic/universal meaning of time, as above:

“... time is just the concept of 'that which elapses' as things move,.” (not a thing/entity.)

 

“A year” of time elapsed in 2002. “A year” (about the same duration) will have elapsed in 2012.

There is your “ordering” of different timed events with same duration but happening “at different times.”

Regarding time and all the confusion around it, simple is better as long as it makes sense and describes “event duration” in the observable world without trying to "make something of it" (reify it.)

 

Regarding your example:

If you think of the first conceivable moment, say t=0 of the Big Bang.. Can you say that involved the result of some change?

 

I don’t see any reality to the concept of t=0. This is based on linear thinking cosmology (like "in the beginning"), with which I disagree.(I prefer infinitely ongoing cyclical.)Your example requires that, first there is nothing... then something (magically appearing)... and its movement (change) begins time. No. Also no "end of time."

Edited June 11, 2012 by owl

[swansont]

Bolded mine.

 

That was not what I had in mind when asking the question. Simultaneity is a description that involves time: it is "zero time". What I asked was more about no time at all, maybe it's a bit difficult to grasp. The example of the mathematical equations on a sheet of paper is the only one I can think of. A derivation is a sequence of equations that are all equals, but different. When you make a derivation, you make some changes, is there time in it?

 

Two distinct items, such as lines of a derivation, do not represent change, using the definition of change with which I am familiar.

[Klaynos]

!

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Hey owl, as I'm sure you're aware by now, please keep non-mainstream/accepted ideas out of other peoples threads. We don't like thread hijacking very much.

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[owl]

michel12345,

I am sorry if you feel that I hijacked your thread. (Do you?) I will not reply in this thread again.

My last post was a direct reply to md's argument, point by point.

[michel123456]

michel12345,

I am sorry if you feel that I hijacked your thread. (Do you?) I will not reply in this thread again.

My last post was a direct reply to md's argument, point by point.

 

No I don't.

Very kind of you.

I was out.

 

Two distinct items, such as lines of a derivation, do not represent change, using the definition of change with which I am familiar.

 

So, following your definition of change, there is no change between 2 lines of a derivation? That's astonishing.

 

If I put

A=B

 

2A=2B

 

2A^2 = 2B^2

 

and so on

there is no change?

[md65536]

If I put

A=B

 

2A=2B

 

2A^2 = 2B^2

 

and so on

there is no change?

 

By what definition of change can you describe a "change between" two distinct things?

 

If you put

A=B

 

and then you put

2A=2B

Try this if you can, to type "2A=2B" while keeping your eyes on the "A=B". Does it change???? Or is it still there after you type the next line? The new line is something different based on the first line. The first line doesn't change.

 

If there is some meaning that you can extract from "the change between two distinct lines of text", then, since the two lines exist simultaneously, that is not a change due to time.

 

Now you're wasting people's time with your "astonishing" clever reasoning about things that don't even make sense.

[michel123456]

By what definition of change can you describe a "change between" two distinct things?

 

If you put

A=B

 

and then you put

2A=2B

Try this if you can, to type "2A=2B" while keeping your eyes on the "A=B". Does it change???? Or is it still there after you type the next line? The new line is something different based on the first line. The first line doesn't change.

You made a point. The second line is not the first line changed, it is something new, on the paper.

But when someone undertakes a derivation, the 2 lines are logically connected as a change, isn't it?

 

If there is some meaning that you can extract from "the change between two distinct lines of text", then, since the two lines exist simultaneously, that is not a change due to time.

 

that's what I am looking for: an example of change that is not related to time.

If you take as granted that by definition change means time then for sure if you will encounter a change that is not related with time you will say that "it is not change".

 

Now you're wasting people's time with your "astonishing" clever reasoning about things that don't even make sense.

 

No comment.

[swansont]

So, following your definition of change, there is no change between 2 lines of a derivation? That's astonishing.

 

If I put

A=B

 

2A=2B

 

2A^2 = 2B^2

 

and so on

there is no change?

 

There's a difference, but since the original line is still there, I don't see how "change" is properly applicable.

[pantheory]

michel123456,

 

that's what I am looking for: an example of change that is not related to time.

Not that there really is such a thing, but any theory that proposes anything happening instantaneously, if valid, would be an example of change(s) not involving time. Theoretical examples might be Newton's instantaneous gravity, maybe the alleged effects of quantum entanglement, any instantaneous changes of state in the quantum theory, if one believes these things then they would be examples of changes without time being involved concerning that event/ change.

//

Edited June 16, 2012 by pantheory

[michel123456]

There's a difference, but since the original line is still there, I don't see how "change" is properly applicable.

What other word would you use?

 

transformation?

[swansont]

What other word would you use?

 

transformation?

 

Progression? Succession?

[md65536]

What other word would you use?

Derivation?

Difference? You can describe the differences between distinct analogous things.

 

You can also consider it in different ways so that it *does* involve a change in time, for example:

- "The state of the paper with one equation written on it, vs. the state with two equations written." These states don't exist simultaneously. The contents of the paper changes as stuff is written on it (but the equations as objects themselves don't change).

- "The act of contemplating the first equation, and then the second." Use of the word then implies different times.

 

 

There are many ways to look at it and many opportunities to confuse an idea for a physical object it represents, or a word for its manifestation in writing, etc.

[michel123456]

Progression? Succession?

 

 

Derivation?

Difference? You can describe the differences between distinct analogous things.

 

You can also consider it in different ways so that it *does* involve a change in time, for example:

- "The state of the paper with one equation written on it, vs. the state with two equations written." These states don't exist simultaneously. The contents of the paper changes as stuff is written on it (but the equations as objects themselves don't change).

- "The act of contemplating the first equation, and then the second." Use of the word then implies different times.

 

 

There are many ways to look at it and many opportunities to confuse an idea for a physical object it represents, or a word for its manifestation in writing, etc.

 

With your descriptions it looks like there is time in this sheet of paper.

[md65536]

With your descriptions it looks like there is time in this sheet of paper.

How do you mean, like, can you cut open the paper and take the time out?