timo Posted June 7, 2012 Share Posted June 7, 2012 Well, well, well! It is a classical physics discussion. One might be tempted to believe it actually should be an electrodynamics or particle physics discussion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alpha2cen Posted June 7, 2012 Share Posted June 7, 2012 What is a light? long wave--------------------------------------------------------------->short wave low energy-------------------------------------------------------------->high energy --------------I.R. , visible light, U.V., X-ray, Gamma-ray---> one light ==> photon Why it does not have a mass? Is it in the no mass action region? First we think about a mass. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hypervalent_iodine Posted June 7, 2012 Share Posted June 7, 2012 ! Moderator Note The last post in this thread was split into a new topic, found here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alpha2cen Posted June 7, 2012 Share Posted June 7, 2012 (edited) Light does not have no moving state, and always move only the speed of light, C. @@What is a mass? F=ma. At a light we can not change an acceleration. So, light does not have a 0 mass, but has no mass. Edited June 7, 2012 by alpha2cen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pantheory Posted June 8, 2012 Share Posted June 8, 2012 (edited) According to the standard model photons at rest have no mass (of course photons can never be at rest by definition ). Photons moving at the speed of light, however, have energy as in a solar sail and therefore this energy has its mass equivalence. Accordingly to GR EM radiation follows the warp in space surrounding matter, but if not it would bend anyway under the influence of gravity based upon its mass-equivalence as Newton predicted Edited June 8, 2012 by pantheory Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Angel Posted June 8, 2012 Share Posted June 8, 2012 Accordingly to GR EM radiation follows the warp in space surrounding matter, but if not it would bend anyway under the influence of gravity based upon its mass-equivalence as Newton predicted What you say is correct, but the AMOUNT that light bends is consistent with the predictions of Einstein's theory of GR, and not with Newton's theory. Newton's theory predicts an amount of bending of light from stars by our sun that is only half the amount that is experimentally observed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pmb Posted June 13, 2012 Share Posted June 13, 2012 (edited) What you say is correct, but the AMOUNT that light bends is consistent with the predictions of Einstein's theory of GR, and not with Newton's theory. Newton's theory predicts an amount of bending of light from stars by our sun that is only half the amount that is experimentally observed. The additional delfection obtained using relativity is due to the spatial curvature around the sun. Without taking the curvature of space into account you're left with only the gravitational acceleration. It can be said that half the delfection is due to gravitational acceleration and half due to spatial curvature. In Einstein's first prediction he didn't take spatial curvature into account and ended up with half the correct value. When he finished his GR theory Einstein recalculated the deflection, now taking spatial curvature into account, and got the correct value. Edited June 13, 2012 by pmb Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
juanrga Posted June 13, 2012 Share Posted June 13, 2012 The additional delfection obtained using relativity is due to the spatial curvature around the sun. Without taking the curvature of space into account you're left with only the gravitational acceleration. It can be said that half the delfection is due to gravitational acceleration and half due to spatial curvature. Flat spacetime theories as the relativistic field theory of gravity (FTG) give the correct value using a flat space. For curved spacetime theories as general relativity (GR), it is very misleading to split the acceleration into fictitious 'gravitational' plus 'spatial curvature' components, because quantities in GR are defined over the physical spacetime and this is curved. The physical reason which GR and FTG give twice light bending than Newtonian gravity is because Newtonian gravity is a scalar theory, whereas GR and FTG are tensor theories (the graviton is spin-2). In Einstein's first prediction he didn't take spatial curvature into account and ended up with half the correct value. When he finished his GR theory Einstein recalculated the deflection, now taking spatial curvature into account, and got the correct value. Precisely Einstein's first computation was in his 1911 paper "On the Influence of Gravitation on the Propagation of Light, where Esintein used a scalar theory of gravity developed before GR. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaulS1950 Posted July 11, 2012 Share Posted July 11, 2012 A photon in free space travelling at C has momentum; the mass is calculated from momentum as momentum/velocity=mass do the math. the nass of a photon is very small (close to zero) but it is more than zero. Paul Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
swansont Posted July 11, 2012 Share Posted July 11, 2012 A photon in free space travelling at C has momentum; the mass is calculated from momentum as momentum/velocity=mass do the math. the nass of a photon is very small (close to zero) but it is more than zero. Paul Experiment has not been able to show this to be true. All results are consistent with zero, and do not exclude it. This is also not consistent with (very successful) theory, which says that the photon is massless. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
juanrga Posted July 11, 2012 Share Posted July 11, 2012 A photon in free space travelling at C has momentum; the mass is calculated from momentum as momentum/velocity=mass do the math. the nass of a photon is very small (close to zero) but it is more than zero. Paul You are using an old concept of mass mrel. Currently photon is a massless particle m = 0 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Photon#Physical_properties Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Severian Posted July 11, 2012 Share Posted July 11, 2012 If light did have mass, the electromagnetic gauge symmetry would be broken and electromagnetism would no longer be a [math]1/r^2[/math] law. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pantheory Posted July 11, 2012 Share Posted July 11, 2012 (edited) If light did have mass, the electromagnetic gauge symmetry would be broken and electromagnetism would no longer be a 1/r^2 law. (bold added) Most students, including myself at that time, unfortunately do not learn that magnetism actually approximates the inverse cube law concerning the falloff of strength with distance. http://blazelabs.com...ersecubelaw.pdf Edited July 11, 2012 by pantheory Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Severian Posted July 12, 2012 Share Posted July 12, 2012 I was talking about the electromagnetic force between two point charges. I thought that was obvious. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pantheory Posted July 12, 2012 Share Posted July 12, 2012 (edited) I was talking about the electromagnetic force between two point charges. I thought that was obvious. O.K., no problem Edited July 12, 2012 by pantheory Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alpha2cen Posted July 12, 2012 Share Posted July 12, 2012 (edited) Can we make one photon particle? [latex]\bigodot ... \bigodot ...... \bigodot [/latex] What is the minimum unit to make or to detect? the mass of the Sun = total mass of the Sun - photon mass in the Sun Do we have no problem in this equation? Edited July 12, 2012 by alpha2cen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
juanrga Posted July 12, 2012 Share Posted July 12, 2012 Can we make one photon particle? Yes we can 'make' one photon and next study its properties/behavior What is the minimum unit to make or to detect? No idea what do you mean by "minimum unit". the mass of the Sun = total mass of the Sun - photon mass in the Sun Do we have no problem in this equation? Photon mass is zero, as said above. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alpha2cen Posted July 12, 2012 Share Posted July 12, 2012 No idea what do you mean by "minimum unit". Can we detect one photon or two photons by using the instrument? Photon mass is zero, as said above. At the Sun fusion reaction, much gamma ray is trapped near the core area, and high energy photon is also trapped in the convection layer, the retention time is too long. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaulS1950 Posted July 12, 2012 Share Posted July 12, 2012 A photon has no "at rest" mass - but then it can't exist at rest so its a bit like saying If you got a lead ball that weighs 10 lbs to the speed of light it would have infinite mass - but you can't get it there. Paul Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
juanrga Posted July 12, 2012 Share Posted July 12, 2012 A photon has no "at rest" mass - but then it can't exist at rest so its a bit like saying If you got a lead ball that weighs 10 lbs to the speed of light it would have infinite mass - but you can't get it there. Paul "Rest mass" is a misnomer [*] and we use the term "invariant mass" or simply "mass" (the immense majority of the literature prefer "mass"). The correct statement is "a photon has no mass". [*] It is a misnomer also for electrons; e.g., the "rest mass" of an electron moving at 0.1c is the same that when the electron is at rest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alpha2cen Posted July 13, 2012 Share Posted July 13, 2012 (edited) At any circumstance, does light have only the velocity, C in the Universe? In the water the speed is reduced. At that situation, can we tell light mass is zero? Light velocity is C mintrinsic = E/c2 Light velocity is smaller than C mintrinsic = E/c2 + (- kinetic energy from the small velocity) + (?) . . . To be a particle mintrinsic= E/c2 + (-E/c2) + m Speculation? Edited July 13, 2012 by alpha2cen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D H Posted July 13, 2012 Share Posted July 13, 2012 At any circumstance, does light have only the velocity, C in the Universe? In the water the speed is reduced. At that situation, can we tell light mass is zero? Photons always travel at c. Always. What happens in a transparent medium is that the medium briefly absorbs photons, only to re-emit them shortly thereafter but with some time delay. The end result is to delay the signal. It is the speed of the signal that is less than the speed of light in a transparent medium. Photons still travel at the speed of light. Note that this absorption is not at the atomic (electron) level. That kind of absorption/reemission can only happen at discrete wavelengths. Instead, it's a collective action of the medium. In solids, the physics is best described by phonons. Phonons pop up in all kinds of places in solid state physics. In fluids, it's a bit messier. Fluids are always messier physics. The absorption/reemission is still a collective action even in a fluid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alpha2cen Posted July 14, 2012 Share Posted July 14, 2012 (edited) Photons always travel at c. Always. When we travel in the space by space craft at the speed 99/100 C, the light velocity to the moving direction in the space craft is 1/100 C. Of course the absolute light velocity in it is C. Is this right? The light comes from the candle in the space craft. Edited July 14, 2012 by alpha2cen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ACG52 Posted July 14, 2012 Share Posted July 14, 2012 When we travel in the space by space craft at the speed 99/100 C, the light velocity to the moving direction in the space craft is 1/100 C. Of course the absolute light velocity in it is C. Is this right? The light comes from the candle in the space craft. No, the light is moving in the direction of the space craft at c. This is what it is measured to be in any inertial frame, regardless of it's relative motion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alpha2cen Posted July 15, 2012 Share Posted July 15, 2012 (edited) No, the light is moving in the direction of the space craft at c. This is what it is measured to be in any inertial frame, regardless of it's relative motion. When the light comes out form the space craft, the light speed will be C at the reference frame. E light, space craft = Elight, reference frame + E kinetic energy difference hv space craft +( V space craft / C) hv space craft = hv reference frame V; frequency At the front of the moving direction wave length of the light will be more shorter than the one in the space craft. The photon in the star is not different from it in the empty space. Edited July 15, 2012 by alpha2cen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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