what came first?

[<:"3~]

what came first....the chicken or the egg?

[StringJunky]

what came first....the chicken or the egg?

 

The egg...this is where the mutation of the genes occurs leading to the evolution of the chicken. Bear in mind it didn't occur in one go but many little changes occurred over many generations.

[John Cuthber]

If the question refers to eggs in general then they certainly pre-date chickens.

But that makes the problem trivial (and hence no fun at all).

If the question is thought of as which came first, the chicken or the chicken's egg? Then it's more interesting.

(I think the answer is the chicken, but I will leave you all to speculate about it)

[Joatmon]

I don't know if chickens are the same as humans in this respect - but I think female human babies come with their full complement of eggs. So in the case of humans (and perhaps chickens) its a dead heat!

 

later edit : just done a quick "google" and it seems I'm right - chicken chicks are (in this respect) the same as human baby girls.

Edited June 2, 2012 by Joatmon

[immortal]

If the question refers to eggs in general then they certainly pre-date chickens.

But that makes the problem trivial (and hence no fun at all).

If the question is thought of as which came first, the chicken or the chicken's egg? Then it's more interesting.

(I think the answer is the chicken, but I will leave you all to speculate about it)

 

To be literally called as a chicken, as a separate species from its predecessor there must be a point in time where a breed between the new population and its predecessor failed to produce a fertile offspring, as long it was producing a fertile offspring it ceases to be a chicken and once it fails it can truly be called as a chicken and that one chicken came from an egg, a chicken egg which produces a chicken. So I think it was the chicken's egg which came first.

[John Cuthber]

I think you are right, but you have missed something.

Whatever criteria we choose for being a chicken , rather than a "pre- chicken" there was, indeed a "first ever chicken".

However, that chicken embryo existed before its mother built a shell round it.

The chicken came first.

[Joatmon]

I think you are right, but you have missed something.

Whatever criteria we choose for being a chicken , rather than a "pre- chicken" there was, indeed a "first ever chicken".

However, that chicken embryo existed before its mother built a shell round it.

The chicken came first.

But as that embryo formed was not a set of eggs formed with, and part of, it? Also, did not that embryo form from an egg? (even if the egg was laid by another species? (nobody asked what came first the chicken or the chicken egg).

Edited June 2, 2012 by Joatmon

[immortal]

I think you are right, but you have missed something.

Whatever criteria we choose for being a chicken , rather than a "pre- chicken" there was, indeed a "first ever chicken".

However, that chicken embryo existed before its mother built a shell round it.

The chicken came first.

 

You've outsmarted me there.

[Phi for All]

what came first....the chicken or the egg?

The rooster.

[John Cuthber]

(1) But as that embryo formed was not a set of eggs formed with, and part of, it?

(2) Also, did not that embryo form from an egg? (even if the egg was laid by another species? (nobody asked what came first the chicken or the chicken egg).

1 Not at first. It was a chicken embryo before its cells differentiated and became it's ovaries. And, of course, there's a 50% chance it was male anyway.

2 No, not entirely. The DNA that defines "chicken" will have come from both parents.

Incidentally, I didn't ask about the chicken's egg, because that would be begging the question. The possessive form presupposes that there is a possessor.

[Joatmon]

1 Not at first. It was a chicken embryo before its cells differentiated and became it's ovaries. And, of course, there's a 50% chance it was male anyway.

2 No, not entirely. The DNA that defines "chicken" will have come from both parents.

Incidentally, I didn't ask about the chicken's egg, because that would be begging the question. The possessive form presupposes that there is a possessor.

Ok - I surrender!

 

 

 

[immortal]

The correct answer is that the chicken embryo came first but when someone specifically asks whether the chicken or the chicken's egg then the answer is chicken's egg.

[John Cuthber]

There are two possible meanings to "the chicken's egg"

one it laid (or would potentially lay) or the

one it hatched from

In either case, the chicken was there first.

Ihe phrase "the chicken's egg" means the belonging to the chicken. If the chicken isn't there yet the egg can't belong to it.

[immortal]

There is a lot of difference between the words "chicken" and "chicken embryo". I think one should be careful while replacing one with the other.

 

http://msucares.com/poultry/reproductions/poultry_chicks_embryo.html

EVENTS IN EMBRYONIC DEVELOPMENT

 

Before Egg Laying:Fertilization

Division and growth of living cells

Segregation of cells into groups of special function (tissues)

 

Between Laying and IncubationNo growth; stage of inactive embryonic life

 

During Incubation:

 

First day16 hours - first sign of resemblance to a chick embryo

18 hours - appearance of alimentary tract

20 hours - appearance of vertebral column

21 hours - beginning of nervous system

22 hours - beginning of head

24 hours - beginning of eye

 

Second day25 hours - beginning of heart

35 hours - beginning of ear

42 hours - heart beats

 

Third day60 hours - beginning of nose

62 hours - beginning of legs

64 hours - beginning of wings

 

Fourth day - beginning of tongue

 

Fifth day - formation of reproductive organs and differentiation of sex

 

Sixth day - beginning of beak

 

Eighth day - beginning of feathers

 

Tenth day - beginning of hardening of beak

 

Thirteenth day - appearance of scales and claws

 

Fourteenth day - embryo gets into position suitable for breaking shell

 

Sixteenth day - scales, claws and beak becoming firm and horny

 

Seventeenth day - beak turns toward air cell

 

Nineteenth day - yolk sac begins to enter body cavity

 

Twentieth day - yolk sac completely drawn into body cavity; embryo occupies practically all the space within the egg except the air cell

 

Twenty-first day - hatching of chick

 

Throughout this process the organism can be called as a chicken embryo and once it hatches out it is called as a chicken.

 

 

 

[John Cuthber]

It seems to be a matter of nomenclature.

I think it's a chicken once it has chicken DNA (even if it's very young).

[immortal]

The definition of an embryo covers the stages from the start of fertilization until it hatches or gives birth. In developmental biology even the protoplasm plays an important role in regulating the expression of DNA and its not all about DNA. Its not appropriate to say that there is something like chicken Kinase or chicken phospharylase. IMO chicken as such doesn't exist until its developmental pathways are well established and distinguished effectively (i.e the first resemblance of a chick embryo).

[John Cuthber]

OK, so just talking about the DNA was oversimplification but whatever the egg is wrapped around is a thing that is destined to become a chicken. It can not, for example, become a crocodile or a duck. I think it's a chicken. You choose to call it something else. As I said, it depends on the nomenclature.

[immortal]

Anyways, I have to agree to disagree here, its not convincing.

[robheus]

what came first....the chicken or the egg?

 

The chicken-soup.

[Aethelwulf]

what came first....the chicken or the egg?

 

the chicken. Chickens lay eggs. Eggs don't lay chicken.

[Moontanman]

I think you are right, but you have missed something.

Whatever criteria we choose for being a chicken , rather than a "pre- chicken" there was, indeed a "first ever chicken".

However, that chicken embryo existed before its mother built a shell round it.

The chicken came first.

 

 

I disagree, i don't think there was ever a point in time that there was a chicken and before that point there was no chicken. Being a chicken is a spectrum of states and at no point in time would you see a non chicken lay an egg that became a chicken...